The Buchholz Dilemma

[Spudboy]

if we finish dead last again, I think there is a very good chance we get a new GM.

 

Not sure about this Ted but it would be justified.

[Palodios]

Do you see this as a possibility at the trade deadline this year?

 

Maybe. I have predicted many of Ben's trades in the past, and this type of trade accomplishes the goals of the franchise. The concern is finding a GM willing trade away that kind of talent -- Gray and Miller seem like the only ones even remotely available.

[Spudboy]

Maybe. I have predicted many of Ben's trades in the past, and this type of trade accomplishes the goals of the franchise. The concern is finding a GM willing trade away that kind of talent -- Gray and Miller seem like the only ones even remotely available.

 

Gray is not available. Oakland stated that Friday.

[RedSoxNC84]

If only he could stay this effective all the time, then this wouldn't need to be debated. At this point though you never know when he could implode or get injured again.

 

Personally I would like to keep him and hope that he continues to be as productive as he is, but history has shown us all this will not happen.

 

I think he would be better being traded to an NL team (I'm thinking dodgers, they lost a ton of pitching to injury) for some young cost controlled pitching prospect(s.) This may be one of the best moves Ben can make right now.

[BigPapi]

If they don't call up brian johnson soon, I'm gonna start to think that they view him the same way they did anthony ranaudo. I don't watch paw sox games so I can't tell, but does anyone here know how good brian johnson's stuff is? Maybe they just want to hype him up in the minors and deal him cause they believe his game won't transfer to the majors like ranaudo"

[Palodios]

Gray is not available. Oakland stated that Friday.

 

Donaldson wasn't available either.

[Spitball]

Donaldson wasn't available either.

 

Donaldson really, really pissed off Billy Beane. Few other general managers work in a market where they can react to insubordination with such vindictiveness. I think Charley Finley may have paved the road for this kind of behavior.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Spitball

[User Name]

One industry source says he "knew" the Athletics would trade Josh Donaldson this winter, no matter how little baseball sense it made, because the All-Star and Beane were "at war" by season's end.

 

Multiple sources cite a verbal altercation between the two after Donaldson told manager Bob Melvin he needed a couple of days off after Oakland had played several days in a row. The story goes, Beane told Donaldson if he needed a couple of days off, the club should put him on the disabled list, and that made Donaldson unhappy. ...

"Donaldson told the manager he needed a blow, and [bob] Melvin said, 'You got it,' " the source said. "Then that night's lineup came out and Billy asked, 'Where's Donaldson?' "

When told what happened, the source says, an angry Beane demanded that Melvin put Donaldson back into the lineup.

"They got into it in the coach's office," the source says, describing a scene in which Beane lit into Donaldson, with the third baseman reiterating his need for a day off and petulantly calling Beane "Billy Boy."

"Nobody talks to Billy that way," the source said. "It did not surprise me in the least that he got rid of Donaldson."

 

From Yahoo Sports.

[Spitball]

From Yahoo Sports.

 

Beane is probably smarter, but he is today's Charley Finley. How many franchises have had such unconventional, successful leadership?

[Thunder]

Maybe. I have predicted many of Ben's trades in the past, and this type of trade accomplishes the goals of the franchise. The concern is finding a GM willing trade away that kind of talent -- Gray and Miller seem like the only ones even remotely available.

 

Along with Gray being unavailable, I don't think the Braves would give up Miller. They're still in contention. They're certainly not frontrunners for the NL East, but they had to steal Miller from the Cards. I doubt they'd give him up that quickly, even for a really good offer.

[sk7326]

There are guys who are not "available" the Red Sox could put an offer to get - I do agree with Pal that the Red Sox are definitely looking at that goal. Simultaneously they know that starting pitching, young controllable pitching, is easier to make than buy. It's not 1998 - there are very few teams that cannot see a pitcher through to at least the arbitration deals. Still the Red Sox best bet is doing what they did with Rodriguez - land a guy with uncertain probability and (for now) get lucky.

[Palodios]

The Athletics are on their way down. Their farm system is among the worst. They lost Shark, Lester, Cespedes, Donaldson last year. Zobrist and kaczmir are gone next year. Reddick the year after.

 

It might not happen, but it seems like they're heading toward a rebuild.

[sk7326]

The Athletics are on their way down. Their farm system is among the worst. They lost Shark, Lester, Cespedes, Donaldson last year. Zobrist and kaczmir are gone next year. Reddick the year after.

 

It might not happen, but it seems like they're heading toward a rebuild.

 

I don't disagree and we know Beane is Belichikian in his unsentimentality. That said, their run scoring margin is so misaligned with record that he might (justifiably) see a better team than others do.

[User Name]

I don't disagree and we know Beane is Belichikian in his unsentimentality. That said, their run scoring margin is so misaligned with record that he might (justifiably) see a better team than others do.

 

They're in the top third of the league in both runs scored and allowed. Their pythag has them 8 games above .500. That team will not sell.

[Palodios]

They're in the top third of the league in both runs scored and allowed. Their pythag has them 8 games above .500. That team will not sell.

 

They're already 10.5 games back on their division. Maybe they fight for the wildcard (6.5 games ) but they have the worst record in the AL right now.

 

If that continues, I don't see Beane sitting on Zobrist and Kaczmir. Gray might be next after that. Hypothetically, one of these aces might be available but only the GMs really know.

[sk7326]

They're already 10.5 games back on their division. Maybe they fight for the wildcard (6.5 games ) but they have the worst record in the AL right now.

 

If that continues, I don't see Beane sitting on Zobrist and Kaczmir. Gray might be next after that. Hypothetically, one of these aces might be available but only the GMs really know.

 

I think the issue was the term rebuild. This season has not gone well - but the fundamentals of a good team are there. I could see a sell because Beane is a smart guy (and it's why you got Zobrist in the first place), but nothing on the level of ripping to the studs or anything.

[mvp 78]

So the Sox are still buyers at 39-45, but the A's are sellers at 38-47? A's have no reason to trade Gray for a package that includes Buchholz or B list Sox prospects.

[User Name]

So the Sox are still buyers at 39-45, but the A's are sellers at 38-47? A's have no reason to trade Gray for a package that includes Buchholz or B list Sox prospects.

 

With better peripherals and stats, mind you.

[a700hitter]

So the Sox are still buyers at 39-45, but the A's are sellers at 38-47? A's have no reason to trade Gray for a package that includes Buchholz or B list Sox prospects.

 

Unless Sonny Gray punches out Billy Beane.

[jacksonianmarch]

Everyone has their price, but the one floated for Gray is laughable. You'd have to move Betts and Bogaerts to get that kid. He's the goods and is likely going to torch in Tuesday night

[sk7326]

But a harder road to a playoff bid. I don't think they have any intention of rebuilding. But we know beane will take calls on zobrist and Kazmir. That is why he got them in part.

[jacksonianmarch]

He'll take the calls. The thing with Beane is that he's gonna ask for something big and something weird. Be wary, he's right a lot about the weird acquisitions

[sk7326]

He'll take the calls. The thing with Beane is that he's gonna ask for something big and something weird. Be wary, he's right a lot about the weird acquisitions

 

What he and Melvin have done is leverage platoons to get lots of cheap production - it is hard for that to be sustained in the playoffs when the pitching is better, but it has allowed them to be consistently competitive. And of course, they have built to the ballpark as well as anybody.

[jacksonianmarch]

Beane gets panned for his Donaldson trade, but he got two big league pieces from the get go who have a WAR of 3.6 combined. Donaldson is at 4.3 this year, but he is 29 and the two big leaguers he got are 25 and 21. That doesn't take into account the lefty in AAA Nolin and the high upside 19 yr old SS in A+ ball who is hitting for some power at a young age. As it stands, Lawrie and Graveman for Donaldson is a good long term deal. If Nolin or Barreto turn into anything, this deal will end up as a steal, especially for a 29 yr old player who Beane hated

[User Name]

Beane gets panned for his Donaldson trade, but he got two big league pieces from the get go who have a WAR of 3.6 combined. Donaldson is at 4.3 this year, but he is 29 and the two big leaguers he got are 25 and 21. That doesn't take into account the lefty in AAA Nolin and the high upside 19 yr old SS in A+ ball who is hitting for some power at a young age. As it stands, Lawrie and Graveman for Donaldson is a good long term deal. If Nolin or Barreto turn into anything, this deal will end up as a steal, especially for a 29 yr old player who Beane hated

 

Good take. Lawrie has a ton of untapped potential too.

[jacksonianmarch]

UN, I am always wary about Beane's moves. He seems to always sell high on guys and asks for guys who have untapped and unseen potential. Same deal with Samardzija. He got him and Hammel last year because they were making a run, and went for it by dealing Russell. Well, he sends Samardzija away in the offseason and gets Semien, who looks like he could be a solid big league middle infielder (WAR of 1.5 this yr) and the unknown of the deal was Phegley, who is a playing very well with a .820OPS in 37 games and a 0.8WAR. All the while, Samardzija is on a 1 yr deal and his WAR is 1.3, a full 1.0WAR below the two big leaguers sent to Oakland. That doesn't include the 23 yr old 1b with huge OBP potential and some power potential in Ravelo who will be in AAA after his rehab assignment and the righty Bassitt who is now starting for the A's with Parker down and has had a solid start to his A's career. Beane doesn't look to deal a superstar and get a superstar in return. He looks to get guys who are average or better with the potential to be above average and he likes to accumulate a lot of those types. That allows him to fill a roster that looks on its face to be uninspiring, but always seems to have good Pythags and 7 times out of 10 contends in the west without any major financial outlay. His system works to have successful regular season teams.

[Bellhorn04]

Beane is a very smart and successful GM. Last year must have hurt though. Who would have thought the A's would fold after acquiring Lester?

[RedSoxNC84]

Beane will likely get a steal off Kazmir too. Problem with Kazmir is he is amazing against AL West teams and meh against everyone else.

[Spudboy]

The Sox should trade for Beane it would seem.

[Palodios]

Everyone has their price, but the one floated for Gray is laughable. You'd have to move Betts and Bogaerts to get that kid. He's the goods and is likely going to torch in Tuesday night

 

Since when were two top 20 prospects + minor pieces laughable ? Maybe expecting a haul for Buchholz is unrealistic, but there hasn't ever been a trade in baseball giving up three top 20 prospects, as far as I can remember.