The Buchholz Dilemma

[a700hitter]

His season is over.

we knew "Good Buch" was on borrowed time.

[Bellhorn04]

His season is over.

 

He's got a lot of financial incentive to get back this time.

[jacksonianmarch]

He does, but if he rushes back and rips his elbow, he's f***ed. I said in another threat that you should expect him to be out for 30-45 days. I stand by that mostly based upon the diagnosis given and how long it took Miller to come back from the same injury

[cp176]

Buchholz is fortunate that he has been playing for a team that can afford him. If you are satisfied with what you are going to get from him and can afford him which obviously the Sox can than fine - keep him. You just clearly can't depend on him staying healthy. You have to have a secondary plan ready to go if he stays.

[Kimmi]

He does, but if he rushes back and rips his elbow, he's f***ed. I said in another threat that you should expect him to be out for 30-45 days. I stand by that mostly based upon the diagnosis given and how long it took Miller to come back from the same injury

 

I am not a doctor, so I don't know how significant this is, but Buchholz was saying that the doctor told him that his arm looked like he had never pitched. The ligaments did not look "streteched" or anything along those lines. In other words, it didn't sound like he was in danger of being a future TJ victim based on this injury.

[mvp 78]

I am not a doctor, so I don't know how significant this is, but Buchholz was saying that the doctor told him that his arm looked like he had never pitched. The ligaments did not look "streteched" or anything along those lines. In other words, it didn't sound like he was in danger of being a future TJ victim based on this injury.

 

That's fine, but considering how well Buchholz has rehabbed in the past, we probably won't see him until March.

[Spudboy]

I'm not counting on Buch to contribute anything of substance again this season.

 

I hope Johnson does not s*** himself. It would be really cool to see him perform about the way that ERod has so far.

 

Still need two quality arms, though.

[Kimmi]

That's fine, but considering how well Buchholz has rehabbed in the past, we probably won't see him until March.

 

I can't argue with that.

[a700hitter]

I can't believe that this has happened after he decided to change his Charity Bowling Tournament to Nerf Bowling to avoid injury. Signing the additional paperwork probably strained Bubble Boy's elbow.

[jacksonianmarch]

A common thing you see in pitchers is being diagnosed with a flexor strain and having a negative MRI only to find out a month later that the UCL was torn all along. It's not an exact science.

[Palodios]

The second opinion from Dr. Andrews confirmed the first opinion. No tommy john for Buchholz this year -- but I just want him gone.

[jacksonianmarch]

Andrews is the guru. His fellowship program is one of the hardest programs to get into in the country and that's for the best of the best in orthopedics. He apparently has multiple fellows operating basically all the time with 4 rooms running pretty much 7 days a week. The guy is a god in the ortho world. That being said, a PRP injection will put him out for another month or so. He's probably going to end the season healthy, but will likely throw for the final month only

[Spudboy]

Andrews is the guru. His fellowship program is one of the hardest programs to get into in the country and that's for the best of the best in orthopedics. He apparently has multiple fellows operating basically all the time with 4 rooms running pretty much 7 days a week. The guy is a god in the ortho world. That being said, a PRP injection will put him out for another month or so. He's probably going to end the season healthy, but will likely throw for the final month only

 

Which means a few starts in September at best.

 

This guy is now officially worth nothing in trade ( again ).

 

Cut bait on this f***ing lunkhead.

 

Bye bye putz.

 

Of course the Sox will now decide to pick up his option or whatever and we will all have to watch him flounder for another year.

[Bellhorn04]

I still keep him, for the sole reason that we have so little else in actual major league caliber pitching talent on our roster.

[SoxnCycles]

I still keep him, for the sole reason that we have so little else in actual major league caliber pitching talent on our roster.

 

Yup, the Sox aren't in any position to give away cheap pitching.

Even if it's only three months worth.

[a700hitter]

Which means a few starts in September at best.

 

This guy is now officially worth nothing in trade ( again ).

 

Cut bait on this f***ing lunkhead.

 

Bye bye putz.

 

Of course the Sox will now decide to pick up his option or whatever and we will all have to watch him flounder for another year.

He's done except for some rehab and maybe a token start or so on September, but they will declare him healthy and hopes will be high for him in 2016.... and if we are lucky, we will get a good solid half season out of him.

[Kimmi]

I still keep him, for the sole reason that we have so little else in actual major league caliber pitching talent on our roster.

 

He's one of the most frustrating pitchers around, but the dude is actually very good when he's healthy. If he only pitches half a season, he should be well worth the $13 million. This year, he has been a 3.1 WAR player, worth $24.7 million, according to Fangraphs.

 

I'd be surprised if the Sox don't pick up the option.

[a700hitter]

Because every team needs a good short season pitcher.

[Spudboy]

I think keeping the stiff is just going to perpetuate the s*** rotations that have hampered this team.

 

The Idea that this guy is valued at 24 mil and that half a season is better than nothing is just stupid.

[Kimmi]

I think keeping the stiff is just going to perpetuate the s*** rotations that have hampered this team.

 

The Idea that this guy is valued at 24 mil and that half a season is better than nothing is just stupid.

 

It wouldn't be the first time I've had a stupid idea.

[SoxnCycles]

I think keeping the stiff is just going to perpetuate the s*** rotations that have hampered this team.

 

The Idea that this guy is valued at 24 mil and that half a season is better than nothing is just stupid.

 

Injuries or not, not realizing the Sox would've been 11 games out by Memorial Day without him is stupid

[Spudboy]

It wouldn't be the first time I've had a stupid idea.

 

I'm not calling you stupid.

 

I do recognize that when healthy and "on his game", Buch can be dominant.

 

But after 8 years of missing the boat, it's very clear that this guy is never going to be anything more than a part time starter.

 

I don't know the exact numbers but I seem to remember that Buch is making 13 mil and is in line to make about 16 mil next year. Granted that in today's MLB market that is not a lot of money for a quality starter ( it sounds perverse to say that ), Buch has only been "Good Buch" for about 20 games spread out over the past three seasons.

 

Yes, of course I remember how great he was in the first half of 2013 and how that was a major component to the Sox success that year. That's great!

 

But now he has remained a part time employee. In the real world, a business would get rid of such an employee. Success can not be built on the potential of one or more players providing quality production in their position. They must be relied upon to be on the job when expected and doing their job effectively. This has not, and most likely will not be the case with Buch.

 

Keeping him on the staff is just another indication that the Sox management does not have the ability to move forward and build a quality product. Denying this serves no purpose other than to make excuses for continued failure.

 

I have no idea what pitchers can be identified and targeted for acquisition ( other than the current crop of off season FA ). However, I suspect that the Sox can do better than hanging their hopes on a guy that has never really gotten it done for his entire 8 year career with the team.

 

Enough is enough. Move on.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Spudboy

[Kimmi]

I'm not calling you stupid.

 

I do recognize that when healthy and "on his game", Buch can be dominant.

 

But after 8 years of missing the boat, it's very clear that this guy is never going to be anything more than a part time starter.

 

I don't know the exact numbers but I seem to remember that Buch is making 13 mil and is in line to make about 16 mil next year. Granted that is today's MLB market that is not a lot of money for a quality starter ( it sounds perverse to say that ), Buch has only been "Good Buch" for about 20 games spread out over the past three seasons.

 

Yes, of course I remember how great he was in the first half of 2013 and how that was a major component to the Sox success that year. That's great!

 

But now he has remained a part time employee. In the real world, a business would get rid of such an employee. Success can not be built on the potential of one or more players providing quality production in their position. They must be relied upon to be on the job when expected and doing their job effectively. This has not, and most likely will not be the case with Buch.

 

Keeping him on the staff is just another indication that the Sox management does not have the ability to move forward and build a quality product. Denying this serves no purpose other than to make excuses for continued failure.

 

I have no idea what pitchers can be identified and targeted for acquisition ( other than the current crop of off season FA ). However, I suspect that the Sox can do better than hanging their hopes on a guy that has never really gotten it done for his entire 8 year career with the team.

 

Enough is enough. Move on.

 

Bottom line is you are not going to find pitching of his caliber for $13 million a year. And his option would only be for one year. His reward is well worth the risk.

 

The key is to have a solid back up plan in the event that Clay gets injured again, which is very likely. The stupidity would not be in picking up Clay's option. It would be in not having a viable back up plan.

[a700hitter]

Bottom line is you are not going to find pitching of his caliber for $13 million a year. And his option would only be for one year. His reward is well worth the risk.

 

The key is to have a solid back up plan in the event that Clay gets injured again, which is very likely. The stupidity would not be in picking up Clay's option. It would be in not having a viable back up plan.

The backup plan would be a minor leaguer who you would hope could step in and claim a spot or a rehabiing veteran who you hope would be healthy and ready at the time Buch goes down in June or July. You are not going to sign or trade for a fully healthy starter and stick him in the pen waiting for Buch to go down. It is really hard to have a good reliable backup plan for losing one of your better starters during the season.

[Spudboy]

Injuries or not, not realizing the Sox would've been 11 games out by Memorial Day without him is stupid

 

I never stated that he was not capable of contributing. He just can't be relied upon to do it enough of the time.

[a700hitter]

Save the $13 million for the half year and get a full season pitcher.

[Spudboy]

The backup plan would be a minor leaguer who you would hope could step in and claim a spot or a rehabiing veteran who you hope would be healthy and ready at the time Buch goes down in June or July. You are not going to sign or trade for a fully healthy starter and stick him in the pen waiting for Buch to go down. It is really hard to have a good reliable backup plan for losing one of your better starters during the season.

 

Yup. And keeping a player that you can predict will not be ready to go all season weakens the team. That is just common sense.

[Spudboy]

Save the $13 million for the half year and get a full season pitcher.

 

That is good business sense.

[SoxnCycles]

That is good business sense.

 

You're going to need two, with that plan, not one.

[Dojji]

Pitching of what caliber? You mean the caliber of pitching where a replacement level player takes half his innings DRASTICALLY reducing his impact? I think you can find value worth the combination of 20 starts with Buchholz and 13 starts of a replacement level player for $13M, because that averages out to an average pitcher at best.

 

And then there's the playoffs. In the playoffs Buchholz has made 5 starts and averages 5 and a sliver innings per starts with an ERA of 4.20. Again, I think you can replace that level of production for $13m

Edited July 23, 2015 by Dojji