Tommy John Surgery for Christian Vasquez

[Spudboy]

Ball Four was a great book when it was published. I think that it would be an interesting read for anyone who really likes baseball or professional sports.

 

Another great book from the '70s is "Foul The Connie Hawkins Story".

 

Long before Dr. J or MJ there was the Hawk. He did change the game. Unfortunately very few people saw him do it in the obscurity of minor league basketball and in the ABA.

 

Again, if you have any interest in basketball or just sports, this is a great read.

 

And while the topic is still freshly posted in this thread, I kind of like the old Oakland Athletics. They had many good players and a colorful, if obnoxious owner who did all that he could to raise awareness of his team in a dead market. I believe he was the man who introduced white shoes in sports. And of course he pioneered the failed and stupid idea of a designated runner. Lol!!! He actually tried to pay Vida Blue to change his name to True Blue.

 

Ah yes, the good old days. I used to be able to sit and talk with the players in the bullpen at Fenway. Real conversations that would sometimes last for months! Now you have to pay many players for an autograph.

[a700hitter]

700, an anecdotal story about Johnny Blanchard in no way proves anything about Ryan Hanigan. Especially, an anecdotal story that probably isn't totally being remembered correctly. Blanchard wasn't acquired by the A's to be a starter. He started only 28 games for them that season.

 

In Ball Four, Jim Bouton described Blanchard "as one of the guys." He was a drinking partner of Mickey Mantle, Whitey Ford, and Clete Boyer. Surely he cried because he was leaving his pals with the Yankees and going to Charley Finley's A's, one of the worst organizations in baseball.

 

 

 

I can't give Dusty Baker any credit. I liked the man, but he had some strange ideas like leading off with his centerfielder, batting a middle infielder second, and the catcher eighth. He also didn't appreciate players like Hanigan who could draw a walk. He claimed they just clogged up the bases.

Even a drunk manager would not keep his best catcher on the bench for 7 seasons. Hanigan is a back up type. Them's the facts. He has always been a backup. After he left the Reds , he backed up a 39 year old catcher in Tampa.

 

The purpose of the Blanchfield story wasn't to prove anything, but rather to illustrate that some guys are just role players. Everything in a conversation is not about evidence in a courtroom. It's a conversation. It is not a story misremembered by me. I wouldn't even know the story if I didn't hear his former team mate tell it. I don't remember the name of his former team mate or whether he embellished the story. It is also irrelevant whether the A's got him to be a starter. All he knew was that he had been obtained in a trade. No one spoke to him about his role and his team mate was just trying to make him feel better by telling him that he would probably be playing more. Being a backup catcher was a step up for him.

 

Edit:

 

But Blanchard's days as a Yankee were to come to an end in early May of the 1965 season. Following an exhibition game against the New York Mets, he was called into manager Johnny Keane's office and was given the news he had been traded to Kansas City. John took the news hard. He cried uncontrollably in the Yankee clubhouse. Mickey Mantle sat down next to Blanchard and attempted to cheer him up. "Don't take it so hard, John. Just think, in Kansas City you're going to get a chance to play." "Hell, I can't play Mick, that's why I'm crying."

All of that being said and your attempt at courtroom argumentation, none of it changes the fact that Hanigan always has been and always will be a backup catcher. We don't have a major league starting catcher at this time. We are waiting for Swihart.

Edited April 3, 2015 by a700hitter

[Spitball]

Even a drunk manager would not keep his best catcher on the bench for 7 seasons. Hanigan is a back up type. Them's the facts. He has always been a backup. After he left the Reds , he backed up a 39 year old catcher in Tampa.

 

Them's really are not the actual facts.

 

In 2009 Hanigan was basically the starting catcher in Cincinnati. He only started 72 games, but that was more than Ramon Hernandez's 53 starts.

 

In 2010 Hernandez started 85 and Hanigan 58. Hanigan may have been the backup, but he broke his thumb and was on the disabled list for an extended period.

 

In 2011, Hanigan and Hernandez shared the starting role with 73 and 76 starts.

 

In 2012, Hanigan started 98 games and Mesoraco started 48.

 

In 2013, Mesoraco started 84 games and Hanigan 66.

 

In 2014, Hanigan (66 starts) and Molina (70 starts) shared the catching position as co-starters.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Spitball

[a700hitter]

Them's really are not the actual facts.

 

In 2009 Hanigan was basically the starting catcher in Cincinnati. He only started 72 games, but that was more than Ramon Hernandez's 53 starts.

 

In 2010 Hernandez started 85 and Hanigan 58. Hanigan was the backup.

 

In 2011, Hanigan and Hernandez shared the starting role with 73 and 76 starts.

 

In 2012, Hanigan started 98 games and Mesoraco started 48.

 

In 2013, Mesoraco started 84 games and Hanigan 66.

 

In 2014, Hanigan (66 starts) and Molina (70 starts) shared the catching position as co-starters.

I stand corrected. He was the primary catcher in 3 seasons, not 2. He is still a backup catcher for most of his career. That is what he is.

[cp176]

Ball Four was a great book when it was published. I think that it would be an interesting read for anyone who really likes baseball or professional sports.

 

Another great book from the '70s is "Foul The Connie Hawkins Story".

 

Long before Dr. J or MJ there was the Hawk. He did change the game. Unfortunately very few people saw him do it in the obscurity of minor league basketball and in the ABA.

 

Again, if you have any interest in basketball or just sports, this is a great read.

 

And while the topic is still freshly posted in this thread, I kind of like the old Oakland Athletics. They had many good players and a colorful, if obnoxious owner who did all that he could to raise awareness of his team in a dead market. I believe he was the man who introduced white shoes in sports. And of course he pioneered the failed and stupid idea of a designated runner. Lol!!! He actually tried to pay Vida Blue to change his name to True Blue.

 

Ah yes, the good old days. I used to be able to sit and talk with the players in the bullpen at Fenway. Real conversations that would sometimes last for months! Now you have to pay many players for an autograph.

 

Connie Hawkins was the real deal!

[Spitball]

I stand corrected. He was the primary catcher in 3 seasons, not 2. He is still a backup catcher for most of his career. That is what he is.

 

Where did you say 2 seasons? You said, "...the fact that Hanigan always has been and always will be a backup catcher."

 

Hanigan has always been a co-starter rather than a backup with the possible exception of 2013 when former first round pick and 2014 all-star Devin Mesoraco was the starter.

[Spudboy]

Connie Hawkins was the real deal!

 

He was. And he got a raw deal.

 

I met him in 1973 at the Boston Shoot Out at B.U. Case Center. He was coaching the team from Pittsburgh. He was very understated and friendly. Of course he had no idea how a 4'10" white kid was approaching him. It was a dominantly black crowd.

 

It's funny. People always compared Julious Erving to Hawkins yet most people who saw Erving play did not have any idea who Hawkins was.

[a700hitter]

 

I don't put a lot of value on guys that start 60-70 games a year. Good yes. "That Good" ? No. If he was "that good", he would have started more games. He has been the primary catcher on his team in 2 of his 8 seasons. He is a backup type, nothing more.

Spit, I said it right here ^. You need to work a little on your listening skills instead of being so focused on making you argument.

 

I think we can agree that Hanigan is a guy who starts around 60-70 games each year. That is what his record shows. When you catch 60 or 70 games each year and you catch the second most games on your team most years, I consider you a backup. If you want to call him a co-starter, feel free to do so. I don't care if you call him an astronaut. He is still a 60-70 game catcher meaning that we have to get around 110 -120 games from someone else. Right now the only other catcher on our roster is an untested castoff. We really need Swihart to sieze the day in a month or 2, because I can't see a 34 year old backup catcher and a castoff getting us through the season. You are free to disagree.

Edited April 3, 2015 by a700hitter

[Kimmi]

Leaving aside the fact that Swihart hasn't proven he can hit big league pitching either yet, Vazquez should hit well enough to hold his own as a defensive specialist if he can put in the reps. If he can get his average up into the .260 range he's fine at the bottom of a batting order as long as the glove holds up.

 

 

I am a huge Vazquez fan, but my understanding is that Swihart projects to be almost as good defensively as Vazquez is. He is not there yet, and not ready for major league action yet, but with a little more seasoning, he should get there. Add to that Swihart's supposed strong offense, he projects to be the better overall catcher. If that's the case, Swihart has to get the nod over Vazquez.

[a700hitter]

I am a huge Vazquez fan, but my understanding is that Swihart projects to be almost as good defensively as Vazquez is. He is not there yet, and not ready for major league action yet, but with a little more seasoning, he should get there. Add to that Swihart's supposed strong offense, he projects to be the better overall catcher. If that's the case, Swihart has to get the nod over Vazquez.

We need him (Swihart) quicker than we did before.

[Kimmi]

Our best hope is for Swihart to come up by June and take the full time job. I can't see getting through the season with an aging backup (no matter how good he had been in that role) and a bush leaguer discard. That is not a good situation. We have to hope that Swihart blossom like Mookie Betts when he comes to Fenway and doesn't sputter and fail like Boegaerts, Bradley and Middlebrooks.

 

 

We likely will not need Hanigan to get through the entire season as our primary catcher. He should be able to do a good job for 2 months or so, at which time maybe Swihart will be ready. If not, the Sox can trade for another catcher.

 

I read an article today which projected the dropoff from Vazquez/Hanigan to Hanigan/Leon to be between 1/2 and 1 win, provided Hanigan's offense rebounds some and he can manage the greater workload. Every win is important, but the dropoff should not be as bad as I originally feared. Interestingly, The Clone's offense is so pitiful that he projects to be no better than replacement level. But, his defense should still stand out, both in terms of framing and gunning down base runners, which should be good for our pitchers.

[Kimmi]

I am a reasonable and wise man. It just takes people some time to figure me out. Some never do. Some don't want to. LOL!!!

 

 

Quite modest too, I've noticed.

[seabeachfred]

Do not rush Swihart. We want him ready when we bring him up. We don't want a replica of Jackie Bradley or Xander Bogaerts. Both may have been rushed or maybe they had trouble in a higher classification. Whatever, let's be right about Blake.

[Kimmi]

We need him (Swihart) quicker than we did before.

 

 

It seems like it, but I don't want the Sox to panic and call him up before he is ready. Catchers need time to hone their skills behind the plate. I am glad that the FO decided to send him to AAA at least to start the season.

[User Name]

I am a huge Vazquez fan, but my understanding is that Swihart projects to be almost as good defensively as Vazquez is. He is not there yet, and not ready for major league action yet, but with a little more seasoning, he should get there. Add to that Swihart's supposed strong offense, he projects to be the better overall catcher. If that's the case, Swihart has to get the nod over Vazquez.

 

You are trying to apply logic to the argument. Dojji's schtick is ignoring logic and coming out of left field with an idea that's nearly impossible.

[User Name]

Do not rush Swihart. We want him ready when we bring him up. We don't want a replica of Jackie Bradley or Xander Bogaerts. Both may have been rushed or maybe they had trouble in a higher classification. Whatever, let's be right about Blake.

 

Neither was rushed. Some guys just struggle before settling in. You have watched enough baseball to know this.

[a700hitter]

It seems like it, but I don't want the Sox to panic and call him up before he is ready. Catchers need time to hone their skills behind the plate. I am glad that the FO decided to send him to AAA at least to start the season.

I am thinking that we can last into June with the current duo. After that, I think Hanigan will start wearing down and Leon will start wearing on everyone's nerves. If Swihart can't get here in June, I think they have to consider getting another catcher.

[Spudboy]

We likely will not need Hanigan to get through the entire season as our primary catcher. He should be able to do a good job for 2 months or so, at which time maybe Swihart will be ready. If not, the Sox can trade for another catcher.

 

I read an article today which projected the dropoff from Vazquez/Hanigan to Hanigan/Leon to be between 1/2 and 1 win, provided Hanigan's offense rebounds some and he can manage the greater workload. Every win is important, but the dropoff should not be as bad as I originally feared. Interestingly, The Clone's offense is so pitiful that he projects to be no better than replacement level. But, his defense should still stand out, both in terms of framing and gunning down base runners, which should be good for our pitchers.

 

He must be a spectacular defender if he is considered anywhere near replacement level with a .156 BA.

 

Oye.

 

In any case the loss of Vasquez is not likely going to determine the Sox fate in 2015.

[Kimmi]

I am thinking that we can last into June with the current duo. After that, I think Hanigan will start wearing down and Leon will start wearing on everyone's nerves. If Swihart can't get here in June, I think they have to consider getting another catcher.

 

 

I really have no argument with this.

[Kimmi]

He must be a spectacular defender if he is considered anywhere near replacement level with a .156 BA.

 

Oye.

 

In any case the loss of Vasquez is not likely going to determine the Sox fate in 2015.

 

 

His defense is that good. He doesn't have much major league experience, but in the minors, he framed pitches as well as Vazquez and his CS% was 45%.

[Spitball]

One more point about Hanigan, and I will drop it. He may be past his most productive years, and I will admit that. However, in his prime, Ryan Hanigan's on-base ability was greatly under appreciated by the strange mind of Dusty Baker (see Bill James and Rob Neyer).

 

"I think walks are overrated unless you can run... If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps. But the guy who walks and can't run, most of the time they're clogging up the bases for somebody who can run."

--Dusty Baker

 

"Who's been the champions the last seven, eight years? ...Have you ever heard the Yankees talk about on-base percentage and walks? Walks help. But you ain't going to walk across the plate. You're going to hit across the plate. That's the school I come from."

--Baker

 

"It's called hitting, and it ain't called walking. Do you ever see the top 10 walking? You see top 10 batting average. A lot of those top 10 do walk. But the name of the game is to hit."

--Baker

 

Baker always batted Hanigan in the eighth hole despite his ability to get on base at a high rate. He also batted low to sub-.300 on-base centerfielders like Willy Taveras and Drew Stubbs in the leadoff spot and on-base challenged middle infielders like Zack Cozart and Paul Janish in the second spot. Dusty Baker accepted throwing skills but did not understand framing skills.

 

Ryan Hanigan played his prime years under the wrong manager.

[Spudboy]

No wonder the Dodger organization has thought that Black people can not manage a team.

 

I never realized that Baker was such a dolt.

 

I read today that one of the big reasons that the Twins are going nowhere fast is their aversion to Metrics. They just won't use them to their advantage.

 

Well at least Minnesota a great state fair.

[Spudboy]

His defense is that good. He doesn't have much major league experience, but in the minors, he framed pitches as well as Vazquez and his CS% was 45%.

 

I don't get it. Everyone is all over Vasqueze's s*** for not being an offensive force yet a scrub like this guy comes along and can't hit worth a s*** and he is league average???????????

 

Maybe he can learn on the job in MLB??????

 

 

I thought Vasquez showed good promise at the plate in 2014. He ended up with "only" a .240 BA. I thought that was better than what most catchers provide from what I have seen. With defense as good as his I don't know why so many people were saying "if he could only hit .260 he could be very valuable".

 

Whatever.

[Northern Star]

I wouldn't worry much about catcher this year. This team is not winning the series with this pitching.

[User Name]

I wouldn't worry much about catcher this year. This team is not winning the series with this pitching.

 

Much like in 2013, amirite?

[Ogden]

Connie Hawkins was the real deal!

 

It's funny. People always compared Julious Erving to Hawkins yet most people who saw Erving play did not have any idea who Hawkins was.

 

 

 

You guys are right. He was Julius Erving before Julius Erving, with the flying dunks from the foul line. The ball looked like a softball in his hands.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Ogden

[cp176]

You guys are right. He was Julius Erving before Julius Erving, with the flying dunks from the foul line. The ball looked like a softball in his hands.

 

I was going to mention the hands - huge

[Behindenemylines]

At this point, I am grateful for the acquisition of Hanigan. He might not be the same player he was a couple of years ago, but in seven years with Cincinnati, he offensively slashed .262/.359/.343. He was also probably the best defensive catcher in the National League. The Sox have a decent replacement, and the world will not crumble...until he proves he can't handle the job.

 

I think at some point we see Swihart in 2015. Hanigan will be fine defensively, and they don't need much with his bat. I don't now much about Leon, but if these backups don't make the cut we could see a few until the Sox deem Swihart ready. If he comes up and takes off Vazquez may not get a shot to be the every day catcher in 2016.

[Spudboy]

Farrell has stated that Swilhart will be up at some point this season.

[Kimmi]

Baker always batted Hanigan in the eighth hole despite his ability to get on base at a high rate. He also batted low to sub-.300 on-base centerfielders like Willy Taveras and Drew Stubbs in the leadoff spot and on-base challenged middle infielders like Zack Cozart and Paul Janish in the second spot. Dusty Baker accepted throwing skills but did not understand framing skills.

 

Ryan Hanigan played his prime years under the wrong manager.

 

 

I never followed Baker and the Reds that closely, but those are some very interesting quotes that you posted. It sounds like Baker personifies the exact problem with the "conventional wisdom" thinking of many managers. Get with the times, people.

 

Speaking of getting with the times (which I obviously am not), and completely off topic, I was helping a young coworker who was having difficulty saving a file. She asked my why she was getting an error message when she tried to save. I told her that she couldn't have the "pound" symbol in her file name. She says, "huh?".

I told her that she needed to get rid of the "number sign" in her file name. She looks at me, puzzled. She then says, oh, you mean the "hashtag".

 

When did the pound key become a hashtag? Kids...