Tommy John Surgery for Christian Vasquez

[Kimmi]

I don't get it. Everyone is all over Vasqueze's s*** for not being an offensive force yet a scrub like this guy comes along and can't hit worth a s*** and he is league average???????????

 

Maybe he can learn on the job in MLB??????

 

 

I thought Vasquez showed good promise at the plate in 2014. He ended up with "only" a .240 BA. I thought that was better than what most catchers provide from what I have seen. With defense as good as his I don't know why so many people were saying "if he could only hit .260 he could be very valuable".

 

Whatever.

 

 

FTR, I was never all over Vazquez' hitting. I was thrilled with his defense, and said that whatever he gave us offensively was gravy. I was a huge Varitek supporter in his waning years for the very same reason. Vazquez' offense, along with his defense, was enough for him to be projected as a 2 WAR player, unlike Leon whose offense is putrid.

 

Offensive oriented catchers are only good for fantasy teams.

[bostopz]

We likely will not need Hanigan to get through the entire season as our primary catcher. He should be able to do a good job for 2 months or so, at which time maybe Swihart will be ready. If not, the Sox can trade for another catcher.

 

I read an article today which projected the dropoff from Vazquez/Hanigan to Hanigan/Leon to be between 1/2 and 1 win, provided Hanigan's offense rebounds some and he can manage the greater workload. Every win is important, but the dropoff should not be as bad as I originally feared. Interestingly, The Clone's offense is so pitiful that he projects to be no better than replacement level. But, his defense should still stand out, both in terms of framing and gunning down base runners, which should be good for our pitchers.

 

1--- A 34 yo's offense is going to rebound in which he is the starter all season? Please . . .

2--- I wouldn't believe those defensive numbers to boot. The 34 yo is going to be strong defensively all year as the main starter? Please . . .

2--- And Vasquez would have started which then we'd have no reason for Leon. How much better is Hangian than Leon? Do we use the same criteria "if Hanigan's offense rebounds . . . then compare that to Leon?"

 

I am hopeful Hanigan can play well and hold on. Also hopeful that Swihart is "ready" if need be though that wasn't "the plan" this year. If we have to trade for a catcher that would absolutely stink.

 

The numbers aren't gospel - they are estimates. As Kimmi suggested in the past Vasquez's defense was supreme. There is no way a supreme defensive catcher is only so little ahead of a 34 yo that would probably wear down as the starter for an entire year. Further, there is little chance to expect as a starter his offense is going to rebounds when in the last two years he's been pathetic. Now all of a sudden he wears the Sox uniform and there is any emote expectation that he can hit? Mayeb he can -- but it would shear luck if that were to happen.

 

I agree things could happen we won in 2013. Players could over-achieve etc. I just know this -- for all the talk about how many runs a great defensive catcher can prevent-- I know many of you saw the same thing I saw in 2013. That was when the Sox were to meet the Cards -- they said because of Molina the red sox running game of stealing bases would be shut down. And it was when Molina was there. There was no way in hell that defense was worth such a miniscule number.

[Kimmi]

1--- A 34 yo's offense is going to rebound in which he is the starter all season? Please . . .

2--- I wouldn't believe those defensive numbers to boot. The 34 yo is going to be strong defensively all year as the main starter? Please . . .

2--- And Vasquez would have started which then we'd have no reason for Leon. How much better is Hangian than Leon? Do we use the same criteria "if Hanigan's offense rebounds . . . then compare that to Leon?"

 

I am hopeful Hanigan can play well and hold on. Also hopeful that Swihart is "ready" if need be though that wasn't "the plan" this year. If we have to trade for a catcher that would absolutely stink.

 

The numbers aren't gospel - they are estimates. As Kimmi suggested in the past Vasquez's defense was supreme. There is no way a supreme defensive catcher is only so little ahead of a 34 yo that would probably wear down as the starter for an entire year. Further, there is little chance to expect as a starter his offense is going to rebounds when in the last two years he's been pathetic. Now all of a sudden he wears the Sox uniform and there is any emote expectation that he can hit? Mayeb he can -- but it would shear luck if that were to happen.

 

I agree things could happen we won in 2013. Players could over-achieve etc. I just know this -- for all the talk about how many runs a great defensive catcher can prevent-- I know many of you saw the same thing I saw in 2013. That was when the Sox were to meet the Cards -- they said because of Molina the red sox running game of stealing bases would be shut down. And it was when Molina was there. There was no way in hell that defense was worth such a miniscule number.

 

 

I agree that if Hanigan is playing full time that he will likely start breaking down in the 2nd half of the season. He should be okay for the first two or three months, at which time the Sox can either call up Swihart or trade for another catcher.

 

Vazquez is an elite defensive catcher. However, Hanigan is pretty good in his own right. He is not as good as Vazquez, but he is known as a great defensive catcher. There is a dropoff from Vazquez to Hanigan, but nothing as big as if we had Ryan Doumit as our catcher.

 

As far as Hanigan rebounding offensively at the ripe old age of 34, he was the victim of some bad luck the last two years. His BABIP in 2013 was .216 and in 2014 it was .240. At the same time, he posted good line drive rates of 21.5% and 21.8%, respectively. That tells me he is likely due for some regression. Also, perhaps playing everyday and getting more consistent at bats will help his offense.

[bostopz]

I agree that if Hanigan is playing full time that he will likely start breaking down in the 2nd half of the season. He should be okay for the first two or three months, at which time the Sox can either call up Swihart or trade for another catcher.

 

Vazquez is an elite defensive catcher. However, Hanigan is pretty good in his own right. He is not as good as Vazquez, but he is known as a great defensive catcher. There is a dropoff from Vazquez to Hanigan, but nothing as big as if we had Ryan Doumit as our catcher.

 

As far as Hanigan rebounding offensively at the ripe old age of 34, he was the victim of some bad luck the last two years. His BABIP in 2013 was .216 and in 2014 it was .240. At the same time, he posted good line drive rates of 21.5% and 21.8%, respectively. That tells me he is likely due for some regression. Also, perhaps playing everyday and getting more consistent at bats will help his offense.

 

I'm not buying the bold for one second. You are what you are when you have about 530 ab. In addition, there is a reason he was considered a backup.

 

Now we have to be hopeful he could hang on (we need luck on our side). Secondly if we are to bring up Swihart it would be one year ahead of plan. So -- how we have to hope it works out this way --

"It was the right move that this year we were to keep him down in the minors because he needed seasoning. Now he no longer needs seasoning and we should expect he will perform well."

[User Name]

I'm not buying the bold for one second. You are what you are when you have about 530 ab. In addition, there is a reason he was considered a backup.

 

Now we have to be hopeful he could hang on (we need luck on our side). Secondly if we are to bring up Swihart it would be one year ahead of plan. So -- how we have to hope it works out this way --

"It was the right move that this year we were to keep him down in the minors because he needed seasoning. Now he no longer needs seasoning and we should expect he will perform well."

 

No. Not at all. While not nothing, 500 AB's aren't indicative of a definite trend from a player. A better point would be to look at Hanigan's age and posit that perhaps his ability to hit the ball the other way with authority has eroded. In a time where pull hitters are getting shifted to death (the death of their batting averages), fringe offensive performers like Hanigan are receiving the true brunt of the advances of defense. The batting eye is there, but you need to be able to make hard contact the other way to sustain a decent batting average/obp in the big leagues if you don't have power or speed.

[Dojji]

Just for the record, what do people think would be the cost to scoop up Tim Federowicz from the Dodgers? He's got two catchers ahead of him, he's got to be low on options, and we have a history of trading with LAD, including obviously Fed himself.

 

I'm glad we have Leon, but Fed would be a definite upgrade with some real offensive upside.

[Spudboy]

The grass always seems greener when you don't have much to look forward to.

 

Leon was a depth signing. I'm not sure the Sox want to spend assets on a starting catcher at this point. Maybe at the deadline if the need is still there and a decent player can be had at a reasonable price.

 

The Sox seem to have enough interchangeable parts at catcher within their system now. None of them stand out ( except of course Swihart ) but they all seem serviceable over a short stint. I think that the Sox probably value this as they are waiting to see some advancement in technique by Swihart before bringing him up 95.

 

If Swihart stumbles in Pawtucket for whatever reason and the Sox believe they still have a chance at a post season run in late June or July that is when they may go shopping.

 

I'd still love to see Curt Suzuki here but it probably won't happen. Navarro is another matter, though.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Spudboy

[bostopz]

No. Not at all. While not nothing, 500 AB's aren't indicative of a definite trend from a player. A better point would be to look at Hanigan's age and posit that perhaps his ability to hit the ball the other way with authority has eroded. In a time where pull hitters are getting shifted to death (the death of their batting averages), fringe offensive performers like Hanigan are receiving the true brunt of the advances of defense. The batting eye is there, but you need to be able to make hard contact the other way to sustain a decent batting average/obp in the big leagues if you don't have power or speed.

 

Nah-- I don't agree with this at all. I hope you're right. Over two years 500 ab is indicative imo. You just don't go from a 5 year .275 hitter to a two year .208 hitter and mostly attribute it to bad luck.

[User Name]

Nah-- I don't agree with this at all. I hope you're right. Over two years 500 ab is indicative imo. You just don't go from a 5 year .275 hitter to a two year .208 hitter and mostly attribute it to bad luck.

 

The fact that you don't "agree with it" doesn't make it any less true. Luck on balls in play can vary extremely over a sample as small as 500 at bats. It indicates very little.

[Spudboy]

They were not contiguous at at bats.

 

Hitting part time both seasons makes it less likely for you to be able to get your stroke back and to keep it season long. At least this is what I suspect.

[bostopz]

The fact that you don't "agree with it" doesn't make it any less true. Luck on balls in play can vary extremely over a sample as small as 500 at bats. It indicates very little.

 

Allow me to retort. Making excuses for players doesn't make it right.

[bostopz]

They were not contiguous at at bats.

 

Hitting part time both seasons makes it less likely for you to be able to get your stroke back and to keep it season long. At least this is what I suspect.

 

So which of the seasons can we discount from Hanigan in the other years when he had 293 ab in 2009, 243 ab in 2010, an 304 ab in 2011?

[User Name]

Allow me to retort. Making excuses for players doesn't make it right.

 

That doesn't even make sense.

[bostopz]

That doesn't even make sense.

 

Sure it doesn't make sense. You can make an excuse for a guy you want to succeed. No one ever does that except non Red Sox fans.

[Spudboy]

oye

[User Name]

Sure it doesn't make sense. You can make an excuse for a guy you want to succeed. No one ever does that except non Red Sox fans.

 

What are you even talking about? The general idea that Hanigan may somewhat rebound because there's a logical explanation to his problems the last two years isn't an "excuse", it's trying to predict what he may or may not be able to do. Breathe, this isn't an attack on your character.

[Kimmi]

The grass always seems greener when you don't have much to look forward to.

 

Leon was a depth signing. I'm not sure the Sox want to spend assets on a starting catcher at this point. Maybe at the deadline if the need is still there and a decent player can be had at a reasonable price.

 

The Sox seem to have enough interchangeable parts at catcher within their system now. None of them stand out ( except of course Swihart ) but they all seem serviceable over a short stint. I think that the Sox probably value this as they are waiting to see some advancement in technique by Swihart before bringing him up 95.

 

If Swihart stumbles in Pawtucket for whatever reason and the Sox believe they still have a chance at a post season run in late June or July that is when they may go shopping.

 

I'd still love to see Curt Suzuki here but it probably won't happen. Navarro is another matter, though.

 

 

Wait a minute....

 

I thought you said that logic was not allowed here.

 

Very nice post.

[mvp 78]

Just for the record, what do people think would be the cost to scoop up Tim Federowicz from the Dodgers? He's got two catchers ahead of him, he's got to be low on options, and we have a history of trading with LAD, including obviously Fed himself.

 

I'm glad we have Leon, but Fed would be a definite upgrade with some real offensive upside.

What did we give up for Fred? Salary dump on their part?

[a700hitter]

Low risk high reward acquisition.

[a700hitter]

The grass always seems greener when you don't have much to look forward to.

 

Leon was a depth signing. I'm not sure the Sox want to spend assets on a starting catcher at this point. Maybe at the deadline if the need is still there and a decent player can be had at a reasonable price.

 

The Sox seem to have enough interchangeable parts at catcher within their system now. None of them stand out ( except of course Swihart ) but they all seem serviceable over a short stint. I think that the Sox probably value this as they are waiting to see some advancement in technique by Swihart before bringing him up 95.

 

If Swihart stumbles in Pawtucket for whatever reason and the Sox believe they still have a chance at a post season run in late June or July that is when they may go shopping.

 

I'd still love to see Curt Suzuki here but it probably won't happen. Navarro is another matter, though.

 

You and I have always liked Suzuki.

[Dojji]

July 31, 2011: Traded as part of a 3-team trade by the Boston Red Sox with Juan Rodriguez (minors) and Stephen Fife to the Los Angeles Dodgers. The Los Angeles Dodgers sent Trayvon Robinson to the Seattle Mariners. The Boston Red Sox sent Chih-Hsien Chiang (minors) to the Seattle Mariners. The Seattle Mariners sent Erik Bedard and Josh Fields to the Boston Red Sox.

[Palodios]

I always liked Fedex. He was traded to the Padres this winter, and is now on the 60 Day DL, so probably not a great fit now.

[Bellhorn04]

The Seattle Mariners sent Erik Bedard and Josh Fields to the Boston Red Sox.

 

Ah yes, Erik Bedard. That went well.

[bostopz]

What are you even talking about? The general idea that Hanigan may somewhat rebound because there's a logical explanation to his problems the last two years isn't an "excuse", it's trying to predict what he may or may not be able to do. Breathe, this isn't an attack on your character.

 

The reason why you think he is going to rebound is that your discarding the facts from the last two years. Maybe you are right to discard them but as of this moment I don't agree - but I'm hopeful like everyone else on here. I see the last two years as a trend not as an aberration. I hope you're right. Hope the guy gets his hitting around that .270 range to boot (his high end) and plays solid defense.

 

Okay I'm done with this-- can't wait to see how it all goes.

[sk7326]

If the catcher defense is good, then things will be fine. The offense was going to be lousy most likely regardless. What might be worrisome is that industry guys absolutely gush about Vasquez' pitch framing and I don't know enough about the other guys to see where they are in that area. But I am assuming it's not "horrible".