Yankees retire 3 more numbers

[Ogden]

Yankees are retiring the numbers of Posada, Pettite, and Bernie Williams. A .270 hitter who was a bad defensive catcher, a pitcher who had an ERA over 4.00 eight times in his Yankee career, and Bernie who probably deserves it.

 

Four catchers have had their numbers retired - Berra, Dickey, Howard, and Munson. Three pitchers numbers are retired - Whitey Ford, Guidry, and Mariano. Posada and Pettite are to use a commonly coined term, the JV team, compared to the previously honored guys. What a joke. Looks like Hal knows less than George did about Yankee history.

 

The only reason I mention this is that I grew up in North Jersey in the pre-Steinbrenner era and I understood the tradition. I eventually moved to New England, Steinbrenner bought the team and made the team into something that the old time Yankees would be embarrassed to be a part of, and I grew to think of him as a buffoon and made it easy to root for the Sox. Sorry for the rant.

[mvp 78]

Yes, too many numbers are retired. The Celtics have the same problem. That bar should be much higher.

[Spudboy]

Yes, too many numbers are retired. The Celtics have the same problem. That bar should be much higher.

 

Who among the Celtic retired numbers do you see as undeserving?

[Kimmi]

I don't know what the criteria are for retiring numbers, but it does seem like maybe they are bestowing that honor to loosely. This is not to knock any of those players, but I've always felt that if an honor is questioned or debated, then that player probably doesn't truly deserve such a high honor. This is similar to Hall of Fame inductees. It lessens the integrity of the award.

[mvp 78]

Who among the Celtic retired numbers do you see as undeserving?

 

1, 2, 3, 10, 19, 31

 

Walter Brown, Red, DJ, Jo Jo White, Don Nelson, Cedric Maxwell

 

Paul Puerce deserves it, but no one else new does.

[mvp 78]

Sox need to retire 34 and 45.

[Palodios]

Yankee management is considering whether they want to retire Jeter's number #2 twice, or three times.

 

Hmmm

[Northern Star]

This is a joke right? Posada?? Retiring the Core Four? JFC. They already have numbers that don't deserve to be retired, now they're adding to that list? Wow.

[Spudboy]

It's just PR crap. It means nothing.

 

I think the Sox should retire the number of Duane Josephson.

[jacksonianmarch]

For those crapping on Posada, get a clue. Below are his stats and where they stand in history for catchers

 

Walks- 936- 3rd

Doubles- 379- 7th

OPS- .848- 6th

OBP- .374- 8th

HR- 275- 8th

RBI- 1,065- 11th

OPS+- 121- 8th

 

Gammons posted an article here http://m.mlb.com/news/article/26459328/ basically saying Posada has the numbers to validate HOF mention. Also, don't forget the 4 rings (he wasn't on the team in 96). A near HOFer (and might actually get in eventually) who was a huge part of a significant run of dominance warrants having their number retired

 

Pettitte's case is more complicated since he has PEDs attached to his name, but anyone celebrating Ortiz as a potential HOFer is being hypocritical for going after Pettitte for it too. Based solely on numbers, Pettitte is a borderline HOF case as well. Yeah, he had multiple years where his ERA was above or at 4, but he pitched in a time where that was a very good pitcher. His ERA+ is 117 for his career, which is better than HOFers Ferguson Jenkins, Steve Carlton's, and Don Sutton's. He was our most consistent pitcher who, in a town which prides itself on championships, has the most post season victories of all time. His WAR is right around Juan Marichal, Jim Bunning and Hal Newhouser and significantly better than the guy considered to be the best Yankees pitcher of all time, Whitey Ford. His numbers put him in HOF contention, his doping puts him out. That being said, retiring his number is a given, something that should have happened sooner.

 

Bernie Williams was the headscratcher, not because he is getting his number retired, but for how long it has taken. He was the best player on a team that won 4 titles in 5 years and won the AL pennant 6 times in 8 seasons. We will never see that again.

 

In short, if you team had won 4 titles in 5 years and had the run of dominance the Yankees showed until the real fall of the dynasty two seasons ago, you'd be clamoring for your guys to have their jerseys on the wall as well. Stop being hypocritical

[seabeachfred]

Yankees are retiring the numbers of Posada, Pettite, and Bernie Williams. A .270 hitter who was a bad defensive catcher, a pitcher who had an ERA over 4.00 eight times in his Yankee career, and Bernie who probably deserves it.

 

Four catchers have had their numbers retired - Berra, Dickey, Howard, and Munson. Three pitchers numbers are retired - Whitey Ford, Guidry, and Mariano. Posada and Pettite are to use a commonly coined term, the JV team, compared to the previously honored guys. What a joke. Looks like Hal knows less than George did about Yankee history.

 

The only reason I mention this is that I grew up in North Jersey in the pre-Steinbrenner era and I understood the tradition. I eventually moved to New England, Steinbrenner bought the team and made the team into something that the old time Yankees would be embarrassed to be a part of, and I grew to think of him as a buffoon and made it easy to root for the Sox. Sorry for the rant.

 

Rant????? Cut the crap Ogden. Your post was well written and right on the mark. Besides, living in then hostile territory and becoming a Red Sox fan speaks highly of your positive character. Besides, I like reading your posts. This is one thing I hope the Red Sox don't do. Any player whose number is retired must have been a star of the first magnitude to get that honor from our team as it appears to be right now. I think the Yankees could learn something from us on that score.

[seabeachfred]

Sox need to retire 34 and 45.

 

Agreed, and five will get you ten that it will be done.....Pedey very soon and Papi soon after he retires.

[Northern Star]

For those crapping on Posada, get a clue. Below are his stats and where they stand in history for catchers

 

Walks- 936- 3rd

Doubles- 379- 7th

OPS- .848- 6th

OBP- .374- 8th

HR- 275- 8th

RBI- 1,065- 11th

OPS+- 121- 8th

 

Gammons posted an article here http://m.mlb.com/news/article/26459328/ basically saying Posada has the numbers to validate HOF mention. Also, don't forget the 4 rings (he wasn't on the team in 96). A near HOFer (and might actually get in eventually) who was a huge part of a significant run of dominance warrants having their number retired

 

Pettitte's case is more complicated since he has PEDs attached to his name, but anyone celebrating Ortiz as a potential HOFer is being hypocritical for going after Pettitte for it too. Based solely on numbers, Pettitte is a borderline HOF case as well. Yeah, he had multiple years where his ERA was above or at 4, but he pitched in a time where that was a very good pitcher. His ERA+ is 117 for his career, which is better than HOFers Ferguson Jenkins, Steve Carlton's, and Don Sutton's. He was our most consistent pitcher who, in a town which prides itself on championships, has the most post season victories of all time. His WAR is right around Juan Marichal, Jim Bunning and Hal Newhouser and significantly better than the guy considered to be the best Yankees pitcher of all time, Whitey Ford. His numbers put him in HOF contention, his doping puts him out. That being said, retiring his number is a given, something that should have happened sooner.

 

Bernie Williams was the headscratcher, not because he is getting his number retired, but for how long it has taken. He was the best player on a team that won 4 titles in 5 years and won the AL pennant 6 times in 8 seasons. We will never see that again.

 

In short, if you team had won 4 titles in 5 years and had the run of dominance the Yankees showed until the real fall of the dynasty two seasons ago, you'd be clamoring for your guys to have their jerseys on the wall as well. Stop being hypocritical

 

********. To be retired, you must be an absolute great of the game, imo. You must play most of your career with the team. Offensively, Posada's best stat is his OPS. The rest aren't earth-shattering. He was by all accounts subpar behind the dish. I never looked at him at any time as one of the best catchers in the game. Very good, definitely, but not retired number worthy.

 

Andy is more complex? What's he getting his number retired for, the 3.85 career ERA or career 1.35 WHIP? 219 wins for the Yankees - is that reason enough? I think this is basically more about them being together and winning the titles than their individual worth as players. In Andy's case they treated him like s*** when it was time to renegotiate and that's why he left. He never, ever should have come back to them.

[Northern Star]

Maybe Andy's monument park monument can be a giant syringe?

[jacksonianmarch]

Maybe Andy's monument park monument can be a giant syringe?

 

Maybe we should ask Papi what his monument should look like?

[Northern Star]

Maybe we should ask Papi what his monument should look like?

 

No argument here.

[jacksonianmarch]

********. To be retired, you must be an absolute great of the game, imo. You must play most of your career with the team. Offensively, Posada's best stat is his OPS. The rest aren't earth-shattering. He was by all accounts subpar behind the dish. I never looked at him at any time as one of the best catchers in the game. Very good, definitely, but not retired number worthy.

 

Andy is more complex? What's he getting his number retired for, the 3.85 career ERA or career 1.35 WHIP? 219 wins for the Yankees - is that reason enough? I think this is basically more about them being together and winning the titles than their individual worth as players. In Andy's case they treated him like s*** when it was time to renegotiate and that's why he left. He never, ever should have come back to them.

 

I consider having a number retired to be a step below the HOF. The sox treat theirs differently, obviously. Every man who has had his number retired as a Yankee is either a HOFer or someone who was close to one. The three numbers being retired continue that tradition. All three deserve hall mention. The funny thing about this is the guy who you all are fine with being on the wall didn't even make it past 1 ballot (Bernie). But Posada and Pettitte likely will

[jacksonianmarch]

The other sobering thing to consider here is the 5 guys whose numbers have been or will be retired, what's the common thread? They're all home grown and they played the middle of the field. To have grown a catcher, starter, closer, SS, and CF maturing around the same time, all HOF caliber or slightly below is ridiculous. Maybe if we look at the foundation of the nearly 2 decades of prosperity and try to replicate it, we'll see the promised land again.

[Palodios]

"Its the hall of fame, not the hall of very good. "

 

Carlos Delgado had a career .930 OPS, and barely broke 20 votes.

 

Even guys with real awards like Posey and Mauer are going to struggle to make it in -- Posada is probably on the wrong side of the fence.

[jacksonianmarch]

Carlos Delgado had no rings, and IIRC, he never played in a playoff game. Guys who have the rings get special consideration usually. Which is why it is so strange that Bernie got bounced off in his first year of eligibility. In Bernie's case, it's probably because he wasn't good enough for long enough. Pettitte, Posada, Jeter, and Rivera all played up to and most beyond 40. Bernie was finished at 38 but didn't really play significantly above his peers until he was 26-27 and was only great until he was 34.

 

You have to give some special consideration to guys who are very good to excellent for a LONG time. Jeter and Rivera are shoe ins. But Posada was still raking until he was 39 and Pettitte was still a very good starter in his final season

[Youk Of The Nation]

Pettitte will last longer on the ballot than Posada, but neither will get in.

[Ogden]

For those crapping on Posada, get a clue. Below are his stats and where they stand in history for catchers

 

Walks- 936- 3rd

Doubles- 379- 7th

OPS- .848- 6th

OBP- .374- 8th

HR- 275- 8th

RBI- 1,065- 11th

OPS+- 121- 8th

 

Gammons posted an article here http://m.mlb.com/news/article/26459328/ basically saying Posada has the numbers to validate HOF mention. Also, don't forget the 4 rings (he wasn't on the team in 96). A near HOFer (and might actually get in eventually) who was a huge part of a significant run of dominance warrants having their number retired

 

Pettitte's case is more complicated since he has PEDs attached to his name, but anyone celebrating Ortiz as a potential HOFer is being hypocritical for going after Pettitte for it too. Based solely on numbers, Pettitte is a borderline HOF case as well. Yeah, he had multiple years where his ERA was above or at 4, but he pitched in a time where that was a very good pitcher. His ERA+ is 117 for his career, which is better than HOFers Ferguson Jenkins, Steve Carlton's, and Don Sutton's. He was our most consistent pitcher who, in a town which prides itself on championships, has the most post season victories of all time. His WAR is right around Juan Marichal, Jim Bunning and Hal Newhouser and significantly better than the guy considered to be the best Yankees pitcher of all time, Whitey Ford. His numbers put him in HOF contention, his doping puts him out. That being said, retiring his number is a given, something that should have happened sooner.

 

Bernie Williams was the headscratcher, not because he is getting his number retired, but for how long it has taken. He was the best player on a team that won 4 titles in 5 years and won the AL pennant 6 times in 8 seasons. We will never see that again.

 

In short, if you team had won 4 titles in 5 years and had the run of dominance the Yankees showed until the real fall of the dynasty two seasons ago, you'd be clamoring for your guys to have their jerseys on the wall as well. Stop being hypocritical

 

 

Who is being hypocritical? Nobody even mentioned steroids until you brought it up. Eight years of ERA over 4.00 doesn't earn you squat no matter how many championship teams he was a part of. And being home grown shouldn't give anybody an advantage either The Yankees have had probably a 50 guys play for them for extended years that were better than Posada and Pettite. One thing I loved about Posada was the opponent could always rely on Jorgie to have a passed ball at a crucial time. And how many pitchers didn't want to throw to him?

 

If those two numbers get retired, why not Bobby Richardson, Roy White, Tony Lazzari, Tommy Heinrich, Nettles, Charlie Keller, Lefty Gomez, Moose Skowron, Red Ruffing, Righetti, Vic Raschi, Allie Reynolds, Willie Randolph, Hank Bauer, Stottlemyre, Eddie Lopat, Winfield, Ralph Houk, Mussina, Chris Chambliss, Tino Martinez, Matsui, Joe McCarthy, Miller Huggins, Paul O'Neill. I'm not saying those guys deserve to have their numbers retired although a case could be made for a few of them, but they all are, at a minimum, as good as Posada and Pettite, and most were better players or 3 were highly successful managers.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Unless you're a Yankee fan, who cares what numbers they retire?

[jacksonianmarch]

Randolph is apparently getting retired too

[Bellhorn04]

Unless you're a Yankee fan, who cares what numbers they retire?

 

Quite true. Message board fodder, that's all.

[Kimmi]

"Its the hall of fame, not the hall of very good. "

 

 

That quote about sums up my feelings on the HOF and having numbers retired.

 

These recognitions should be reserved for an elite, small percentage of players for whom, when you hear their names, everyone is in agreement that they belong. If there has to be this much debate over whether a player is deserving or not, IMO, that makes them very good, but not worthy of the award.

[Kimmi]

Quite true. Message board fodder, that's all.

 

 

True enough, I don't really care. But any reason to tweak the Yankees is a good reason.

 

 

 

One thing I loved about Posada was the opponent could always rely on Jorgie to have a passed ball at a crucial time.[/Quote]

 

Have I mentioned that I like you?

[Bellhorn04]

'Hall of Fame' is not exactly clear-cut terminology. The only reason that term was chosen is because it sounds good. So why shouldn't it be the Hall of the Very Good? Whether we like it or not, that's exactly what it is. There are a number of guys in the Hall already who were only very good.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Quite true. Message board fodder, that's all.

It's one thing to debate the hall of fame, but each team determines their own standards for team-specific honors. The fact that Red Sox fans of all people are commenting on what numbers the Yankees should and shouldn't retire is really stupid.

[Kimmi]

'Hall of Fame' is not exactly clear-cut terminology. The only reason that term was chosen is because it sounds good. So why shouldn't it be the Hall of the Very Good? Whether we like it or not, that's exactly what it is. There are a number of guys in the Hall already who were only very good.

 

 

No argument with that, but I don't like it. I think if a player is going to be enshrined, the honor should be reserved for the truly elite. Of course, what "truly elite" means is open to debate.