Red Sox sign Alexi Ogando

[mvp 78]

And complaing about their 12th - 15th pitcher is a little unnecessary. You can't say "every player doesn't need to be an all star" in one post, then complain about the 25th guy on the roster in the next.

[sk7326]

Are you suggesting that I am not aware of the methodology employed in the construction of a pen? If so, you are way off target. The fact that I used "throw crap at the wall and hope it sticks" and my qualification that if he is on short money the deal may be justifed surely indicates that I am at least aware of this technique.

 

We have discussed this subject many times on talksox. I have seen bullpens built a variety of ways since 1967. Several years ago a700 coined the phrase "dumpster diving" ( or Dempster Diving! ) while discussing the Sox move on some low risk / high reward dregs.

 

I get it. It works sometimes. Other times it does not work. I'm glad that the deal is for "only" $1.5 mil ( lol ). This minimizes the risk, I guess. My preference would have been to sign Badenhop again since he is healthy and a proven performer for this team. Additionally, I am concerned that if Mujica is dealt that the Sox do not have a back up plan if Koji fails for whatever reason.

 

i appreciate the concern, but the Red Sox in 2013 were on their FOURTH choice for closer before they hit the winner. Mujica is ok as a backup plan, but so could other guys ... a lot of the 9th inning job is just doing it. It's not magic.

[Bellhorn04]

How you achieve a strong back end of the pen may vary and may not be that important. But getting it somehow can be pretty important. Ask the Tigers. Their failure in having a good back end of the pen has cost them dearly.

[sk7326]

How you achieve a strong back end of the pen may vary and may not be that important. But getting it somehow can be pretty important. Ask the Tigers. Their failure in having a good back end of the pen has cost them dearly.

 

It has ...there is some luck involved. I'd expect the Sox to keep cycling through arms on that front. The only regret I had about dealing Webster and De La Rosa was the conversion possibility. That said they converted them into a durable starter, so hey.

[Bellhorn04]

Why stop there Ted.....Why not add to that august list these gems of dumpster dumpers. Bailey, Carpenter, Beato, Ohlendorf, Silva, Jenks, Wheeler, Hottovoy, and the immortal Boof Bonser. None have worked out and just about all of them caused harm to the team. This season we better have a solid bullpen because our starting rotation has a lot of questionmarks, and as our pal iortiz said, they s*** the bed the way they blew the Lester deal.

 

Fred. Carpenter, Beato, Ohlendorf, Silva, Hottovy, and Bonser? You named 6 guys who pitched a grand total of 29.2 innings for the Red Sox. Ohlendorf and Silva never saw the uniform. Bonser pitched 2 innings in blowout games. Hottovy - 4 innings. The only one who was more than a blip was Beato, who racked up 17.2 innings with a 4.08 ERA.

 

Not one of those 6 guys hurt us.

[User Name]

Fred. Carpenter, Beato, Ohlendorf, Silva, Hottovy, and Bonser? You named 6 guys who pitched a grand total of 29.2 innings for the Red Sox. Ohlendorf and Silva never saw the uniform. Bonser pitched 2 innings in blowout games. Hottovy - 4 innings. The only one who was more than a blip was Beato, who racked up 17.2 innings with a 4.08 ERA.

 

Not one of those 6 guys hurt us.

 

And then people get mad when you call them out for making stuff up.

[mvp 78]

Stop killing Fred's narrative please.

[Spudboy]

Every team signs stiffs.

[mvp 78]

Every team signs stiffs.

 

There were zero stiffs on the 2004, 2007 and 2013 rosters. Fact!

[Kimmi]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why we are now as despised by many as Yankee fans are.

 

 

I agree. And I don't like it.

[Kimmi]

I can think of years where we had a small shopping cart of these damaged injury rebounding pitchers -- John Smoltz, Brad Penny, Aaron Cook, and Vinny Padilla among others. I can't remember any instances of these dumpster dives working out. The harm that occurs is when these broken piles of junk take the mound and ruin games.

 

 

I am talking about BP construction, not the starting rotation. I would never suggest building a starting rotation by assembling a bunch of dumpster dives and hoping something sticks. However, for a back end guy or for depth, I see nothing wrong with taking a chance on a low risk/high reward guy. You just need to have a plan B in case it doesn't work out.

[Kimmi]

You hit the nail on the head. "Decent" maybe be a more descriptive adjective than "crap", but I catch your drift. A lot of successful teams have taken that approach. Maybe occasionally spend $4-6M on a reliever, but other than that, there is no need to do that.

 

 

Completely agree Ogden.

[User Name]

I am talking about BP construction, not the starting rotation. I would never suggest building a starting rotation by assembling a bunch of dumpster dives and hoping something sticks. However, for a back end guy or for depth, I see nothing wrong with taking a chance on a low risk/high reward guy. You just need to have a plan B in case it doesn't work out.

 

You mean like the Red Sox do with their high-upside arms who could make an impact out of the BP come the second half of the season? Well go figure.

[Kimmi]

Are you suggesting that I am not aware of the methodology employed in the construction of a pen? If so, you are way off target. The fact that I used "throw crap at the wall and hope it sticks" and my qualification that if he is on short money the deal may be justifed surely indicates that I am at least aware of this technique.

 

 

I would not suggest such a thing Spudboy. Sorry if my post came across that way.

 

I find you to be very knowledgable and informative.

 

I know that many fans feel that the Sox should spend big dollars on relievers, closers in particular, despite the fact that those long term contracts for relievers rarely work out. I was just voicing my opinion on BP construction.

[Kimmi]

You mean like the Red Sox do with their high-upside arms who could make an impact out of the BP come the second half of the season? Well go figure.

 

 

I like you.

[iortiz]

I am talking about BP construction, not the starting rotation. I would never suggest building a starting rotation by assembling a bunch of dumpster dives and hoping something sticks. However, for a back end guy or for depth, I see nothing wrong with taking a chance on a low risk/high reward guy. You just need to have a plan B in case it doesn't work out.

Well, that low risk/high reward strategy is at the rotation as well this year.

[sk7326]

Well, that low risk/high reward strategy is at the rotation as well this year.

 

Oh I don't know. Porcello is a #3 sort with a #1/#2 upside (and only 26 so there is still improvement in him). Miley is a #3 sort with a #2 upside he has reached previously. Buchholz we know about. Masterson is a large risk - since unlike the other three he was genuinely irredeemably terrible. (and without the flashes Buchholz showed last season in spots) But even with Masterson, if he is healthy he is still innings filler - and if he has to be banished to the bullpen, he can be very good there. If there were franchises who had a 1998 Montreal Expos situation, I'd be more fired up about not landing a sexier pitcher in the offseason. But when you look at the Cubs and Padres - two bad teams last year - genuinely loading up to make a run this year (and the Marlins too!) and you see the effect the 2nd wild card has had. There will be ways to upgrade the rotation (like Lackey becoming suddenly available to Saint Louis) but we'll have to let the season unfold.

[Kimmi]

Well, that low risk/high reward strategy is at the rotation as well this year.

 

 

I don't see it that way. I'm not saying that there aren't any questions marks, but I would not consider our pitchers to be dumpster dives. There might not be a true "ace" within the group, but as a group, they should be solid.

[seabeachfred]

We don't know what the bullpen will end up looking like - but psst ... we didn't know it in 2013 either and it went well

 

Very true sk, but can we depend on the stars aligning that way again this season? Seems to me that beside the stars and some luck there will need to be some real solid pitching coming from our staff and that means both in the rotation and in the pen. It can be done---the question we will all wait with baited breath to see is if we do it.

[seabeachfred]

I don't like Mujica as a backup plan. My guess is they could insert one of their live arms in the minors to be closer for a little bit if they needed to.

 

Simpatico on that one mvp. I do not have that much confidence in Mujica either. I've seem him melt down too many times with both us and the Cardinals. The only upside is that he did pitch fairly well at the end of the season, but by then the pressure was off and we dead on arrival.

[seabeachfred]

Fred. Carpenter, Beato, Ohlendorf, Silva, Hottovy, and Bonser? You named 6 guys who pitched a grand total of 29.2 innings for the Red Sox. Ohlendorf and Silva never saw the uniform. Bonser pitched 2 innings in blowout games. Hottovy - 4 innings. The only one who was more than a blip was Beato, who racked up 17.2 innings with a 4.08 ERA.

 

Not one of those 6 guys hurt us.

 

No Bellhorn, you're right on that. What I meant to convey is that when you sign those types of pitchers very little good is going to accrue from it. I hope that we fine two gems from the plethora of men we've signed this winter. I think in our case a good bullpen is going to be crucial to whatever success we have. Our starters just don't seem to have that much in the way of shutdown talent.

[dupree]

I don't see it that way. I'm not saying that there aren't any questions marks, but I would not consider our pitchers to be dumpster dives. There might not be a true "ace" within the group, but as a group, they should be solid.

I see it the same as you Kimmi. I think this rotation has more question marks than previous rotations. I also see that we are very well positioned to add if a legit pitcher becomes available. I also like the talent we have in the minors. Not to say I think we should do like the Oakland A's and throw the boys in there, but I do think we will see Owens at some point. Aces were prospects at one time and I think he is our next legit prospect to see significant time on the 2015 club. If that be due to injury or due to preformance. I hope it is due to Ownes pushing the issue and him making a case he belongs into the rotation. Also if the club is positioned to make a run then I see Ben making a trade as soon as a legit pitcher becomes available to add to the core. If we could have 2 out of the 5 guys to pitch a level above their projection then the other 3 to pitch to their projection I think we will walk all over the AL east with our offense and our bullpen to be strong.

 

I have seen reports where the Sox are already projected as the favorites to have the biggest turnaround in the league this year and win the AL east. I hope that holds true.

[Kimmi]

I see it the same as you Kimmi. I think this rotation has more question marks than previous rotations. I also see that we are very well positioned to add if a legit pitcher becomes available. I also like the talent we have in the minors. Not to say I think we should do like the Oakland A's and throw the boys in there, but I do think we will see Owens at some point. Aces were prospects at one time and I think he is our next legit prospect to see significant time on the 2015 club. If that be due to injury or due to preformance. I hope it is due to Ownes pushing the issue and him making a case he belongs into the rotation. Also if the club is positioned to make a run then I see Ben making a trade as soon as a legit pitcher becomes available to add to the core. If we could have 2 out of the 5 guys to pitch a level above their projection then the other 3 to pitch to their projection I think we will walk all over the AL east with our offense and our bullpen to be strong.

 

I have seen reports where the Sox are already projected as the favorites to have the biggest turnaround in the league this year and win the AL east. I hope that holds true.

 

 

That's the thing. The Sox are in a good position to fix whatever needs become evident once the season starts, provided that the number of injuries/underperformances is within the "normal" amount. Those fixes could come from within the organization, since we have good depth. Or they could come from outside, since we have the flexibility in terms of both money and players to add pieces.

 

Most reports and projections I have seen have been very favorable to the Sox. As I said before, the games still have to be played, but the goal of the offseason is to assemble a team that looks good on paper. Our FO has done that. I like our chances of seeing the postseason again this year.

[User Name]

I see it the same as you Kimmi. I think this rotation has more question marks than previous rotations. I also see that we are very well positioned to add if a legit pitcher becomes available. I also like the talent we have in the minors. Not to say I think we should do like the Oakland A's and throw the boys in there, but I do think we will see Owens at some point. Aces were prospects at one time and I think he is our next legit prospect to see significant time on the 2015 club. If that be due to injury or due to preformance. I hope it is due to Ownes pushing the issue and him making a case he belongs into the rotation. Also if the club is positioned to make a run then I see Ben making a trade as soon as a legit pitcher becomes available to add to the core. If we could have 2 out of the 5 guys to pitch a level above their projection then the other 3 to pitch to their projection I think we will walk all over the AL east with our offense and our bullpen to be strong.

 

I have seen reports where the Sox are already projected as the favorites to have the biggest turnaround in the league this year and win the AL east. I hope that holds true.

 

Best point you have made during your time on this site, and something some fans just refuse to understand.

[dupree]

Best point you have made during your time on this site, and something some fans just refuse to understand.

Thank you User

[Spudboy]

I'd love to see Owens dominate in Pawtucket and be brought up by the deadline if needed.

 

From what I have read, he would probably benefit most from a complete ( minus a September call-up ) season in AAA to further develop.

 

I feel the same way about Swihart.

[Ogden]

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in a meeting of Sox brass discussing the progress of guys like Owens, Rodriquez, and Swihart. They will never talk honestly and publicly about their true expectations so any attempt of fans to speculate might as well be like going to the gypsy fortune teller.

[cp176]

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in a meeting of Sox brass discussing the progress of guys like Owens, Rodriquez, and Swihart. They will never talk honestly and publicly about their true expectations so any attempt of fans to speculate might as well be like going to the gypsy fortune teller.

 

So true - We hope they have a plan.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think people need to be patient with Owens. From the SR's I am reading, he is a 90-94mph fastball guy who has a dominant changeup and an average breaking ball with plus potential. Sounds a whole lot like a Cole Hamels kind of player. Hamels, in his debut season, had an ERA over 4 and gave up 19 long balls in 132IP. There is a strong likelihood that should Owens hit the big in 2015, that you are going to see something similar. Games where he dazzles and games where he gets destroyed. If the idea is that Owens is coming up to be your ace in 2015, then my guess is, a lot of people will be disappointed. Come 2016 or 2017, could he be acelike, certainly possible. But don't expect that in 2015, and if the sox brass is expecting that, then they're not going to win a lot of games

[User Name]

No one is expecting that, but he could be an important piece in the second half either way.