2014 Offseason Thread

[Spudboy]

I don't see that. What I see are some guys (count me here for what its worth) who see this rotation as something that can be good enough to not kill this team while the starting pitching trade market opens itself up.

 

Now, I wish we had kept Lester. His contract demands were fair, and the probability of the contract being a net plus was solid to me. But he is gone. So you move to the next thing - would signing Max Scherzer and James Shields for $45-$50M be able to be a net improvement on last year's rotation. Personally, I think the answer was yes - but not by THAT much, and certainly not commesurate with the AAV difference. Scherzer probably offset Lester, but Shields big trait given the change of environment was going to be durability.

 

So once you decide Scherzer and Shields were not worth the price and years - what is next? Where is that crackerjack Top 2 guy to land? The guys they DID land were about as good as you were going to get from the "everybody else" pile when you consider that A) most teams are doing well financially and most teams cannot credibly wave the white flag on the 2015 season in December. The only way that trading partners will show up is when teams start to fall out of the chase. Past history is no real guidepost here because the Red Sox did not have A) the job opening and the varied portfolio of tradeable stuff.

 

I don't love this course of action - but I am not sure there was any alternative one given the scene after Lester went west.

 

I'm down with this post.

[iortiz]

I don't see that. What I see are some guys (count me here for what its worth) who see this rotation as something that can be good enough to not kill this team while the starting pitching trade market opens itself up.

 

Now, I wish we had kept Lester. His contract demands were fair, and the probability of the contract being a net plus was solid to me. But he is gone. So you move to the next thing - would signing Max Scherzer and James Shields for $45-$50M be able to be a net improvement on last year's rotation. Personally, I think the answer was yes - but not by THAT much, and certainly not commesurate with the AAV difference. Scherzer probably offset Lester, but Shields big trait given the change of environment was going to be durability.

 

So once you decide Scherzer and Shields were not worth the price and years - what is next? Where is that crackerjack Top 2 guy to land? The guys they DID land were about as good as you were going to get from the "everybody else" pile when you consider that A) most teams are doing well financially and most teams cannot credibly wave the white flag on the 2015 season in December. The only way that trading partners will show up is when teams start to fall out of the chase. Past history is no real guidepost here because the Red Sox did not have A) the job opening and the varied portfolio of tradeable stuff.

 

I don't love this course of action - but I am not sure there was any alternative one given the scene after Lester went west.

 

whoa whoa there. Spud said ¨No way in hell do I believe that Ben really is satisfied with the current rotation for all of 2015¨... then I said ¨Me neither and of course he will not accept it on public, but some here and there are drinking that kool aid.¨ again, not sure what you are disputing. the bold thing?

 

As I said, I do believe that Cherries is not satisfied going forward like this either (notice that it is an opinion), On the other hand... does he think that this rotation as something that can be good enough to not kill this team while the starting pitching trade market opens itself up? he better, but IDK... but I think it must likely is a yes; reason why I think some here and there share that strategy or projection (... drinking that kool aid.). Again, not sure what you are disputing.

 

On the other hand I do think that scenario (trade) is very unlikely, since IMO 1. it will be to late, 2. you will depend on what is available and what your are willing to give up and... 3. it hasn't happened at least in the last 20 Y since I assume it is because the last 2. But yeah, it could happen although very unlikely.

[iortiz]

I'm not trying to apply logic or whatever... My point is pretty simple actually... IMO This pitching strategy is horrible, I already rest my case... and blame or glory FO will charge it, time will tell.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not trying to apply logic or whatever... My point is pretty simple actually... IMO This pitching strategy is horrible, I already rest my case... and blame or glory FO will charge it, time will tell.

 

I find your position abundantly clear.

[iortiz]

I find your position abundantly clear.

 

oks Bell. haha

[sk7326]

whoa whoa there. Spud said ¨No way in hell do I believe that Ben really is satisfied with the current rotation for all of 2015¨... then I said ¨Me neither and of course he will not accept it on public, but some here and there are drinking that kool aid.¨ again, not sure what you are disputing. the bold thing?

 

As I said, I do believe that Cherries is not satisfied going forward like this either (notice that it is an opinion), On the other hand... does he think that this rotation as something that can be good enough to not kill this team while the starting pitching trade market opens itself up? he better, but IDK... but I think it must likely is a yes; reason why I think some here and there share that strategy or projection (... drinking that kool aid.). Again, not sure what you are disputing.

 

On the other hand I do think that scenario (trade) is very unlikely, since IMO 1. it will be to late, 2. you will depend on what is available and what your are willing to give up and... 3. it hasn't happened at least in the last 20 Y since I assume it is because the last 2. But yeah, it could happen although very unlikely.

 

I dispute that there are kool-aid drinkers out there in that way. Or at least I would hope not.

 

The biggest pitcher the Sox have landed at the deadline in my memory is Mike Boddicker (and he cost quite a bit clearly - Brady Anderson and Curt Schilling although Schilling would have to go through 2 more orgs to blossom). I don't think it is a given a move will be made, but it's on the team and staff to create the impetus.

[Palodios]

It seems like there really isn't as much top pitching in the American League anymore. Scherzer, Lester and Shields all went from AL-> NL.

 

The Tigers and White Sox are stacked, and you have guys like Felix, Darvish, Archer, Kluber, and Richards floating around, but there aren't many scary rotations out there.

[Spudboy]

It seems like there really isn't as much top pitching in the American League anymore. Scherzer, Lester and Shields all went from AL-> NL.

 

The Tigers and White Sox are stacked, and you have guys like Felix, Darvish, Archer, Kluber, and Richards floating around, but there aren't many scary rotations out there.

 

I'd say that the Yankee rotation is very good and even scary if they all come back healthy for the new season.

 

But there are big ifs for 4 of their guys.

[iortiz]

I dispute that there are kool-aid drinkers out there in that way. Or at least I would hope not.

 

The biggest pitcher the Sox have landed at the deadline in my memory is Mike Boddicker (and he cost quite a bit clearly - Brady Anderson and Curt Schilling although Schilling would have to go through 2 more orgs to blossom). I don't think it is a given a move will be made, but it's on the team and staff to create the impetus.

Well, in that case I think we agree sk... I also think there are kook-aid drinkers out there.

[iortiz]

I'd say that the Yankee rotation is very good and even scary if they all come back healthy for the new season.

 

But there are big ifs for 4 of their guys.

 

If NYY's ifs turn positive and our ifs turn positive as well (in other words, both strategies work out).. which team would you think have the edge moving forward?

[Spudboy]

If NYY's ifs turn positive and our ifs turn positive as well (in other words, both strategies work out).. which team would you think have the edge moving forward?

 

Well that would then depend on how both team's offenses perform.

 

Both teams have question marks offensively. I'm not being a homer when I say the Sox likely have an advantage here.

[Spudboy]

Well that would then depend on how both team's offenses perform.

 

Both teams have question marks offensively. I'm not being a homer when I say the Sox likely have an advantage here.

 

The pens would be part of what determines which team would be better as well. Presently, that appears to be a wash to me. But a case can be made for either pen.

[User Name]

Sox offense ranked as the best offense in the Majors by Anthony Castrovince for what it's worth.

[User Name]

I find your position abundantly clear.

 

He was the one who said 2013 was a "stars aligning" scenario and refused to acknowledge that it was in any ways, shape or form helped by the team construction strategy. Unbelievable.

[iortiz]

yeah in 2013 the stars aligned, because the whole team overachieved the expected. Few teams have legit possibilities to win the WS, while other do not. Right now, Very few think that we have a legit possibility to win the WS... so if they win yeah! the stars would have aligned again haha which would be great. On the other hand, a team like WSN which is expected to win it all and if they end up winning the WS, I will not say that the stars aligned for them since it was expected from the begging. Comprende?

[iortiz]

Well that would then depend on how both team's offenses perform.

 

Both teams have question marks offensively. I'm not being a homer when I say the Sox likely have an advantage here.

I think it is about the gap between O-P and then how this end up as a unit. Right now, the gap for us is abysmal. In other words, this team is very unbalanced.

[mvp 78]

Overachieving seasonal averages or overachieving your expectations?

[mvp 78]

I think it is about the gap between O-P and then how this end up as a unit. Right now, the gap for us is abysmal. In other words, this team is very unbalanced.

 

The Giants keep winning with "unbalanced" rosters.

[iortiz]

The Giants keep winning with "unbalanced" rosters.

 

I do not think they are this unbalanced.

[sk7326]

Right now, lot easier to list the teams that DON'T have a legitimate shot at the World Series ... this is baseball, you get in the tournament you have a legit shot. Just nature of the beast. (Colorado, Arizona, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Houston, Minnesota) and one of those will probably be able to lie to themselves for a little while.

 

2013 had a few extraordinary years and a lack of injury luck, luck they basically hadn't had in earnest since 2009. Last year was just a long series of underperformance.

 

2015's fortune requires development of folks who have shown considerable promise (Betts, Bogaerts, Castillo, Porcello) which is not unreasonable, but requires a bit more uncertainty than 2013 where you were just hoping guys could take the field.

[iortiz]

Right now, lot easier to list the teams that DON'T have a legitimate shot at the World Series ... this is baseball, you get in the tournament you have a legit shot. Just nature of the beast. (Colorado, Arizona, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Houston, Minnesota) and one of those will probably be able to lie to themselves for a little while.

 

2013 had a few extraordinary years and a lack of injury luck, luck they basically hadn't had in earnest since 2009. Last year was just a long series of underperformance.

 

2015's fortune requires development of folks who have shown considerable promise (Betts, Bogaerts, Castillo, Porcello) which is not unreasonable, but requires a bit more uncertainty than 2013 where you were just hoping guys could take the field.

 

This year I think WSN, DET, LAD and STL have a legit shot. Any ALE team (aside TB), SDP and both CHI teams could turn in dark horses.

 

I will be surprised if someone else win.

[sk7326]

This year I think WSN, DET, LAD and STL have a legit shot. Any ALE team (aside TB), SDP and both CHI teams could turn in dark horses.

 

I will be surprised if someone else win.

 

Considering you did not list either of last year's finalists, that sort of makes the point. Non-great teams win the baseball title all the time (considering the different between a good team and a dark horse is the equivalent of the difference between a 10-6 and 9-7 team in NFL parlance, no wonder).

[iortiz]

Considering you did not list either of last year's finalists, that sort of makes the point. Non-great teams win the baseball title all the time (considering the different between a good team and a dark horse is the equivalent of the difference between a 10-6 and 9-7 team in NFL parlance, no wonder).

Believe it or not I had KCR and TB as my dark horses. I had the Red Sox, LAD, STL and DET as legit contenders.

[iortiz]

... I also had MIL as dark horse.

[seabeachfred]

Sox offense ranked as the best offense in the Majors by Anthony Castrovince for what it's worth.

 

It's worth about the price of a ham sandwich User----but it still is nice to hear someone saying we're the best in something. Maybe something to look forward to when the bell sounds.

[iortiz]

Wonder if someone considered SFG as legit contender or even dark horse.

[mvp 78]

Believe it or not I had KCR and TB as my dark horses. I had the Red Sox, LAD, STL and DET as legit contenders.

 

I don't believe it. If you did, you didn't post about it on here.

[a700hitter]

I don't believe it. If you did, you didn't post about it on here.

 

Neccesary? Conducive to civil discussion?

[mvp 78]

As opposed to stuff like "my opinion is objective, everyone else's is clouded by kool aid drinking?"

 

The majority of iortiz's posts are far from civil discussions.

[User Name]

Trying to discuss civility, objectivity and logic with a700/iortiz is like trying to fit a commercial airplane into a bucket.