The rebuild thread.

[curiousd]

About XB and his problems.

 

So there is WAR, or some calculated "wins added" relative to a minor league player or someone from waivers. There have been major league players with negative WAR, some with pretty high absolute number negative. But I suggest....Ta Ta! SPLAR or stupid play losses against replacement. Thus, any AAA shortstop with his head in the game and anticipating before every play what to do based on different outcomes would not do any of this dumbness.

 

That game the other night against the Astros....the crazy play winding up with the Astros base runner jumping over Badenhop and being safe at home...would never have happened if XB had thrown to first base, not tossed that underhand dying quail to Pedroia at second....Clearly XB gets a SPLAR point for that...that cost the game.

 

Recall way back in the season before they added Drew? On a pop up Middlebrooks and XB start pushing against each other like a comedy act and the ball drops; I suspect because XB did not call for the ball. I recall that play as another SPLAR point versus the Rays.

 

There have been other plays that were fractions of a SPLAR point.... for example on plays with no chance to get the runner at first and the ball should be held but instead it is air mailed by XB into the stands.

 

I think that XB might have accumulated some record number of SPLAR points by the time the season is up, were SPLAR a real statistic.

 

Bright side.....this will get better next year...surely??

[Northern Star]

About XB and his problems.

 

So there is WAR, or some calculated "wins added" relative to a minor league player or someone from waivers. There have been major league players with negative WAR, some with pretty high absolute number negative. But I suggest....Ta Ta! SPLAR or stupid play losses against replacement. Thus, any AAA shortstop with his head in the game and anticipating before every play what to do based on different outcomes would not do any of this dumbness.

 

That game the other night against the Astros....the crazy play winding up with the Astros base runner jumping over Badenhop and being safe at home...would never have happened if XB had thrown to first base, not tossed that underhand dying quail to Pedroia at second....Clearly XB gets a SPLAR point for that...that cost the game.

 

Recall way back in the season before they added Drew? On a pop up Middlebrooks and XB start pushing against each other like a comedy act and the ball drops; I suspect because XB did not call for the ball. I recall that play as another SPLAR point versus the Rays.

 

There have been other plays that were fractions of a SPLAR point.... for example on plays with no chance to get the runner at first and the ball should be held but instead it is air mailed by XB into the stands.

 

I think that XB might have accumulated some record number of SPLAR points by the time the season is up, were SPLAR a real statistic.

 

Bright side.....this will get better next year...surely??

 

it should really be SPLAT.

[d-money]

The starting pitching has been abysmal lately.Astros looking like a big time offense courtesy of red sox starters .Batting practice!!Getting a decent starter is a big priority in the offseason.

[seabeachfred]

it should really be SPLAT.

 

NS, Sabermatricians insist that there is no such thing as a "clutch hitter", and even taking into consideration what David Ortiz has done over the years, they keep insisting that is so. Well, is there the other part of it......are there players who cannot hit when it counts....who fail time and again when the game is on the line and get their hits usually when there is no one on or the game is long gone one way or another. I think it might be time for the Red Sox to start cataloging how their prospects hits with RISP, how they hit with runners on base in general and how they hit with no runners on. I think they might avoid getting stuck with a multi-million potential fraud like Bogaerts who not only fails to hit when it is needed but panics in the field as well, throwing to the wrong base, failing to call for pop-ups down the left field line, and air mailing balls into the first base stands.

[curiousd]

it should really be SPLAT.

 

!. Hi NS...Well.....perhaps "Stupid Play Loss Against Typical Triple A" or SPLATT?

 

2. OMG in the game today XB did it again! Uh....you are supposed to tag the base first , then throw the ball.....cost the Sox four runs right there.

 

It is almost as if there is so much on his mind....worries about who knows what...that he is going through the motions?

[jacksonianmarch]

Xander is a kid, and kids are typically rather emotional. He was riding high until Drew came along. Now, he cant seem to find it again. I wonder if this is a minor blip or if they may have ruined him. That being said, if moving a player to 3b ruins them, then their mettle is put into question immediately. The funny thing is, this yr really hit the sox farm system. While everyone was on the balls of all involved in the sox minor leagues, they haven't played well

[Spudboy]

Maybe needing to prematurely promote young players is not ideal?

 

I have no idea why I continue to read that XB has "all the tools". I certainly have not seen them on the field and I've seen most of the games that he has played since he came up last season. I am not a professional talent evaluator by any means. But a blind person could see that XB has not yet mastered some of the games fundamental skills. For someone who has been labeled the Sox top positional prospect, he sure has fallen short of expectations.

 

But, it's the nature of the beast, I guess. Young players are called prospects because of their potential to become everyday Major League players. Until they do, they are just another player. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail. Sometime they make an immediate positive impact and sometimes they take a while to become good players at the games highest level.

 

I still say XB should have remained in the minors this season and the same could be said for Bradley. The Sox designed their roster with these guys as key components this year. It just has not worked out that well.

 

So far.

[gojohn99]

Jackie Bradley Jr is being sent down to Pawtucket, Mookie Betts has been recalled. It's about time, Bradley needs a lot of hitting help.

[Spudboy]

Jackie Bradley Jr is being sent down to Pawtucket, Mookie Betts has been recalled. It's about time, Bradley needs a lot of hitting help.

 

I think that the Sox have given Bradley enough time and opportunity to fix his hitting woes. Hopefully he can straighten things out in AAA because he is a valuable defensive weapon and fun to watch.

 

At the same time I hope that Betts can demonstrate what Bradley could not offensively while not being a defensive liability in center field ( if that is where he plays the majority of his time ). Maybe Betts will see some time at 2nd especially with Pedroia having the flu?

[seabeachfred]

Xander is a kid, and kids are typically rather emotional. He was riding high until Drew came along. Now, he cant seem to find it again. I wonder if this is a minor blip or if they may have ruined him. That being said, if moving a player to 3b ruins them, then their mettle is put into question immediately. The funny thing is, this yr really hit the sox farm system. While everyone was on the balls of all involved in the sox minor leagues, they haven't played well

 

I think the Red Sox were dealing with a potentially very fragile player confidence wise and am convinced that the move to third to accommodate Drew shook Bogaerts to his roots. It might also be a stark indicator that this young man might not be that mentally tough---at least right now and maybe not in the future either. He has been in a free fall since that time and both his offense and defense have taken a bad tumble. Between he and Bradley, our young players have performed miserably this season. I also think they may have been overrated.

[Spudboy]

I think the Red Sox were dealing with a potentially very fragile player confidence wise and am convinced that the move to third to accommodate Drew shook Bogaerts to his roots. It might also be a stark indicator that this young man might not be that mentally tough---at least right now and maybe not in the future either. He has been in a free fall since that time and both his offense and defense have taken a bad tumble. Between he and Bradley, our young players have performed miserably this season. I also think they may have been overrated.

 

Fred you continue to make assumptions about the fragility of these two young player's Confidence. That's fine as your opinion but it's something that can not be verified now.

I think that both of these guys should have started the season in Pawtucket to continue their development. That is my opinion. Both players have been given almost the entire season to demonstrate the ability to play consistently good baseball at the highest level. I don't see how that decision could possibly be seen as damaging their confidence. Just the opposite.

 

I do agree with your last sentence, though.

[Spitball]

I think the Red Sox were dealing with a potentially very fragile player confidence wise and am convinced that the move to third to accommodate Drew shook Bogaerts to his roots. It might also be a stark indicator that this young man might not be that mentally tough---at least right now and maybe not in the future either. He has been in a free fall since that time and both his offense and defense have taken a bad tumble. Between he and Bradley, our young players have performed miserably this season. I also think they may have been overrated.

 

There are lots of reasons a young player struggles. I mentioned Reggie Smith's, George Scott's, and Rico Petrocelli's early career struggles...and later successes. The same can be said of Dee Gordon, Jose Batista, Alex Gordon, and others. The move to third certainly didn't affect Bogaerts during the World Series. Moving all over the field has not affected Holt.

 

With less than a whole season under their belts, I think it is way too early to declare Bogaerts and Bradley overrated. There is no question it takes more time to evaluate players' abilities.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Spitball

[seabeachfred]

I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree on that Spitball and Spud. Could be both of them will make remarkable recoveries next season but I'm getting more convinced that we have a couple of duds on our hands.

[curiousd]

In the radio broadcast of the game the Sox lost to L.A., Remi attributed the much better performance by Workman to 11 days of rest. What kind of success rate is there in converting a relief guy to a starter, rather than visa-versa? I am thinking of Josh Bard, etc.

[jad]

2015 seemed a lot less far away when I was actually looking forward to it.

[gojohn99]

Bradley went 0-5 with 2 K's for Pawtucket last night... sigh

[rician blast]

Bradley went 0-5 with 2 K's for Pawtucket last night... sigh

 

Our town's legion team could get him out 75% of the time.

[a700hitter]

With less than a whole season under their belts, I think it is way too early to declare Bogaerts and Bradley overrated. There is no question it takes more time to evaluate players' abilities.

Bradley has a full season of experiences at the major league level. He is is a few plate appearances away from 500. He has played in 149 games. He has a .586 OPS. That is atrocious. That is not a bumb in the road. They need to remake his swing. That is not going to be easy.

[seabeachfred]

Bradley has a full season of experiences at the major league level. He is is a few plate appearances away from 500. He has played in 149 games. He has a .586 OPS. That is atrocious. That is not a bumb in the road. They need to remake his swing. That is not going to be easy.

 

Being my closest friend on this board Ted, you might be interested to know that on this date, August 19th, 2000, I went into Fenway Park as a baseball fan and came out at a Red Sox fanatic. Amazing that it took only that one game to completely bring me over. It's been a good ride for the most part but this season has been a bummer to end all bummers.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Bradley has a full season of experiences at the major league level. He is is a few plate appearances away from 500. He has played in 149 games. He has a .586 OPS. That is atrocious. That is not a bumb in the road. They need to remake his swing. That is not going to be easy.

 

There's no denying that he needs to adjust both his swing and his approach. To give up on him this early would be foolish, but certainly he needs to change some parts of his game offensively.

 

That said, he's the best defensive outfielder I've ever seen. So here's to hoping that he can find the adjustments he needs to make. He certainly wouldn't be the first player that had a tough adjustment to MLB pitching.

[a700hitter]

Being my closest friend on this board Ted, you might be interested to know that on this date, August 19th, 2000, I went into Fenway Park as a baseball fan and came out at a Red Sox fanatic. Amazing that it took only that one game to completely bring me over. It's been a good ride for the most part but this season has been a bummer to end all bummers.

Fred, you rooted for Brooklyn through some tough times too. Was it Bart Giamatti that said that this game will break your heart?

[a700hitter]

There's no denying that he needs to adjust both his swing and his approach. To give up on him this early would be foolish, but certainly he needs to change some parts of his game offensively.

 

That said, he's the best defensive outfielder I've ever seen. So here's to hoping that he can find the adjustments he needs to make. He certainly wouldn't be the first player that had a tough adjustment to MLB pitching.

He is not going be returning anytime soon. He should have been getting the help he needed much earlier. The FO did him no favors keeping him up in the majors. He will not be handed the job next spring like it was handed to him this spring. He will have to win it.

 

He is a great fielder, but I am quite a bit older than yu, so he is not the best CF that I have seen.

[seabeachfred]

There's no denying that he needs to adjust both his swing and his approach. To give up on him this early would be foolish, but certainly he needs to change some parts of his game offensively.

 

That said, he's the best defensive outfielder I've ever seen. So here's to hoping that he can find the adjustments he needs to make. He certainly wouldn't be the first player that had a tough adjustment to MLB pitching.

 

SFF---First things first. You have to be a very young man to say he's the best defensive outfielder you've ever seen. Ever heard of Willie Mays? Bank of it my friend, he was better than Jackie, so was Duke Snider, so was Paul Blair, so was Bobby DelGreco. I do agree whole heartedly with you that Bradley is a terrific defensive outfielder but you cannot carry that weak bat in the lineup especially when you have three or four others polluting it . I might also tell you and others who still harp on not enough time to hark back to two former youngsters whose ascension into the Red Sox pantheon was much more successful. I was at the game in Anaheim in early August, 2006 when Pedroia broke in. He hit in very tough luck that night and for the rest of the season and wound up hitting a very deceiving 206. After a tough month in April of 2007 he went on a tear, hit 317 and was voted Rookie of the Year. That same season Jacoby Ellsbury broke in and hit in the 340's, playing both left and center and came close to being named the WS MVP. There is a difference between Jacoby and Dustin's talents compared to Jackie and Xander that could reach from here to Mars. There is no comparison. The first two were destined for great things almost from Day One---almost. The latter two look like sunk costs already.

 

Now it IS possible Bradley could reverse that and come around but he doesn't work at his craft very hard and from reports coming out of Boston was resistant to coaching. Xander is just in over his head right now.

[seabeachfred]

Fred, you rooted for Brooklyn through some tough times too. Was it Bart Giamatti that said that this game will break your heart?

 

Dr Bart was right on about that Ted---right on the money. Fortunately for me I came on board rather close to our long awaited return to greatness; he never lived long enough to see his beloved team in a World Series. He got four AL Titles which I'm sure he was very grateful for but sadly was deprived of the greatest prize of all while the two of us have three to hang our pride on. Sad for Bart because I've read countless places what a ardent and passionate Red Sox fan he was. Then, again, so are we and just about everyone on this board.

[seabeachfred]

Bradley went 0-5 with 2 K's for Pawtucket last night... sigh

 

Let's see what he does the rest of the season in Pawtucket. He may just surprise you and force me to eat crow. However, he has so many weaknesses that I still insist he will never be a credible big league hitter.

[Spitball]

SFF---First things first. You have to be a very young man to say he's the best defensive outfielder you've ever seen. Ever heard of Willie Mays? Bank of it my friend, he was better than Jackie, so was Duke Snider, so was Paul Blair, so was Bobby DelGreco. .

 

Fred, I find this interesting. How are you supporting this post. I have been following baseball and the Red Sox since the early 1960s. I understand that Mays was terrific defensively, and I have seen the clip of the great catch in deep centerfield at the Polo Grounds. I must say I saw him play one time live and maybe ten times on television because of the era. He was superior as I understand it.

 

I never saw Duke Snyder, but he was not known for his defense. He was a superior offensive player in an eight-team league and in the mix of center fielders in the city of New York, but he was certainly not known for his great defense. On what are you basing your opinion that he was absolutely better than Bradley? Please elaborate.

 

I saw Paul Blair many times, and he was great. I can't say he impressed me significantly more than Bradley.

 

I honestly enjoy your posts, Fred. You are an entertaining and passionate fan. That said, how can we honestly compare Duke Snyder to Jackie Bradley, Jr. defensively?

[InfernoOrangeSS]

Just thought I'd throw out some names if you're going to talk about defensive Center Fielders.

 

1. Tris Speaker (1910s)

2. Andruw Jones (2000s)

3. Bill Lange (1890s)

4. Kirby Puckett (1980s)

5. Jim Edmonds (2000s)

6. Sam West (1930s)

7. Eddie Milner (1980s)

8. Willie Mays (1960s)

9. Vince DiMaggio (1940s)

10. Curt Welch (1880s)

11. Fielder Jones (1900s)

12. Max Carey (1920s)

13. Johnny Mostil (1920s)

14. Curt Flood (1960s)

15. Otis Nixon (1990s)

16. Terry Moore (1940s)

17. Mike Griffin (1890s)

18. Carlos Beltran (2000s)

[curiousd]

Comment about great defensive shortstops:

 

Rating defensive plays is subjective, but for me the best defensive play I ever saw for any position was turned in by Jose Iglesias, in that it seemed totally impossible unless done by video trickery and this was a live broadcast in a meaningless game by another last place RS team.

 

(1) Some guy hit a smoking line drive past Iglesias' right hand. Iglesias had to run backwards from the plate well into left field and was able to back hand the ball. (2) He jumped and turned around in the air; then threw the ball while his body was falling away from the plate. (3) The throw went on the fly perfectly to the R.S. first baseman who stretched and got the runner out. (4) The announcer said that Iglesias was helped by that being a slow runner; I do not recall who the runner was.

 

I do hope Iglesias gets over his shin splint problems and fulfills his potential with someone. IMO he showed signs of being able to hit enough to be valuable in the big leagues, given his amazing defense.

[jacksonianmarch]

Edmonds was the guy who made the most spectacular plays, but Jones before he got fat was the best I'd seen. I'd also throw a young Mike Cameron and Griffey Jr in there

[Bellhorn04]

Fred Lynn, of course, made some fantastic plays in centre. I can still remember a catch he made on a Saturday Game of the Week. He sprinted to the wall, caught the ball over the fence and flipped his glove back in the same motion. They used the play in the highlight clip for Game of the Week for a while.