The Jon Lester contract situation

[SCM33]

Wow! Just wow! I don't know of I will get to that point but they can shove their reguar season tickets up their ass if Lester walks. I will not be buyong them.

 

Its not permanent, but I have been turned off from this management group for quite some time. The offseason before Crawford and Gonzalez really started turning me away from them. They won the WS last year, and I should be thrilled about that, but im not....because I hate the ownership group that much.

 

Im sure you remember my absolute bashings of the front office.....well, I feel the same way. The Sox won 2 titles in their reign in spite of them, not because of them......they were too talented to f*** up. Last year was the biggest baseball fluke since Brady Anderson's 50 HR, not complaining as I enjoyed every minute of it, but a spade......is always a spade, unless David Blaine is around the corner.

[Spudboy]

If they can't mend the fence and fix this, I will officially stop being a fan of the Boston Redsox until Larry Lucchino is gone. Larry Lucchino is a f***ing retard and does nothing but continuously f*** things up. Last year was beautiful when we didn't hear a word from him and they let BC run the show.....the second we win the WS last year, that f***ing retard reappears....almost trying to show that he had something to do with last years success.

 

I'd much rather cheer for the guy who REALLY put together that 2004 World Series team, the Duke in Baltimore at Fenway south.....and whatever team Jon Lester goes to. If its the Yankees, so be it. The Redsox almost deserve to have that done to them, but the fans don't. If he goes to the Yanks, I cheer for Jon Lester....and I cheer for an organization that wants to win. Any organization that lets someone like Jon Lester walk out the door.....is comparable to the Montreal Expos letting Pedro Martinez walk out the door. Small market losers mentality.

 

Hopefully they fix this s***.

 

Douqette never gets enough credit for building that team. Few people have many good things to say about him. Maybe because he seemed to be a smug puke while here? In any case, the guy loves the game of baseball and does some good things for the game and certainly for the team that he works for.

 

And I agree. Larry is a meddlesome dufe.

[a700hitter]

Its not permanent, but I have been turned off from this management group for quite some time. The offseason before Crawford and Gonzalez really started turning me away from them. They won the WS last year, and I should be thrilled about that, but im not....because I hate the ownership group that much.

 

Im sure you remember my absolute bashings of the front office.....well, I feel the same way. The Sox won 2 titles in their reign in spite of them, not because of them......they were too talented to f*** up. Last year was the biggest baseball fluke since Brady Anderson's 50 HR, not complaining as I enjoyed every minute of it, but a spade......is always a spade, unless David Blaine is around the corner.

I think you are right about the fact that in 2004 and 2007 they were so talented that they won despite the buffoonery in the FO. Thank you Duke for 2004. I also agree with you about last year. I had picked them for 4th place. Toward the end of the season my wife asked me how I was so wrong about the team. I told her with complete honesty that I had never seen a season go so perfectly and that I did not think they were close to being the most talented team. Let's face it, if Will Myers doesn't misplay a fly ball, we don't get out of the first round. If Tori Hunter's glove arm was 2 inches longer, we get dominated in the ALCS. Instead Papi gets a clutch game tying series changing Grand Slam. In the World Series, Matheny stupidly kept pitching to Ortiz until he was down 3 games to 2. No one else was swinging a good bat in that series. Everything broke right for us and it was glorious. I was at game 6, and I will never forget it. It was the greatest event that I will ever attend. Even my attending the game was luck. A Met fan friend of mine did business with a guy whose business has season tickets. He offered my friend games 1 or 2, but he couldn't make those games. The guy then promised him game 6 if it went that far. My good friend took the most loyal Red Sox fan that he knew. That would be me.

[seabeachfred]

I think you are right about the fact that in 2004 and 2007 they were so talented that they won despite the buffoonery in the FO. Thank you Duke for 2004. I also agree with you about last year. I had picked them for 4th place. Toward the end of the season my wife asked me how I was so wrong about the team. I told her with complete honesty that I had never seen a season go so perfectly and that I did not think they were close to being the most talented team. Let's face it, if Will Myers doesn't misplay a fly ball, we don't get out of the first round. If Tori Hunter's glove arm was 2 inches longer, we get dominated in the ALCS. Instead Papi gets a clutch game tying series changing Grand Slam. In the World Series, Matheny stupidly kept pitching to Ortiz until he was down 3 games to 2. No one else was swinging a good bat in that series. Everything broke right for us and it was glorious. I was at game 6, and I will never forget it. It was the greatest event that I will ever attend. Even my attending the game was luck. A Met fan friend of mine did business with a guy whose business has season tickets. He offered my friend games 1 or 2, but he couldn't make those games. The guy then promised him game 6 if it went that far. My good friend took the most loyal Red Sox fan that he knew. That would be me.

 

I blame Prune Face Henry for this debacle. Instead of telling Lucchino to get his rotten ass up to his office and do his fund raising, marketing and selling the Red Sox brand, he once again lets him meddle into baseball operations when he is a total ignorant s*** when it comes to judging talent and know how a baseball team is built. Last season as 33 said you didn't hear from the guy while Cherington and Farrell ran the show. The results spoke for themselves. Now we see this prick once again butting in and meddling in everyday operations and we see the results. When long time Red Sox fans actually talk about telling the team to go to hell, whether it is temporary or not, you know that many fans are totally pissed off at the turn of events. This isn't the first time Lucchino has meddled.....he did in 2005 and he did in 2008---and notice it was right after the Sox had won a WS.

 

It is most likely this meddling in business that was none of his that soured his relations in Baltimore and San Diego. Too bad we can't somehow divest ourselves from this ******** ASAP.

[Palodios]

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/07/25/notebook-scouts-keeping-close-eye-red-sox-trade-deadline-looms/QUYNk0wXPJHe4On3Fh52xH/story.html

 

 

Lester saying that he'd be willing to go on a vacation to another club, hold no hard feelings, and resign with the Red Sox. I am still convinced that would be the right decision here.

[Station 13]

He shouldn't have said that. his agent is probably not happy.

[Palodios]

He shouldn't have said that. his agent is probably not happy.

 

His agent is probably not happy about most of the things he has said about the Red Sox, but his agent probably doesn't care now that the payday has gone from 70 million to 160 million.

[jacksonianmarch]

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/07/25/notebook-scouts-keeping-close-eye-red-sox-trade-deadline-looms/QUYNk0wXPJHe4On3Fh52xH/story.html

 

 

Lester saying that he'd be willing to go on a vacation to another club, hold no hard feelings, and resign with the Red Sox. I am still convinced that would be the right decision here.

 

No doubt. It would be an excellent decision. The problem is, you would have to wait until he hits FA and see what he is offered. Based on the sox stance, there is no way they'll be the top bidders in the FA marketplace and it sounds like Lester wants fair market value. Regardless, you'd be stupid not to deal him unless you find middle ground on a contract that he agrees to before Aug 1

[Behindenemylines]

No doubt. It would be an excellent decision. The problem is, you would have to wait until he hits FA and see what he is offered. Based on the sox stance, there is no way they'll be the top bidders in the FA marketplace and it sounds like Lester wants fair market value. Regardless, you'd be stupid not to deal him unless you find middle ground on a contract that he agrees to before Aug 1

 

If Lester walks the Sox will not be in the hunt for the playoffs in 2015. Lester leaving leaves the staff without an ace, and you no where he will end up signing which strengthens the enemy while it weakens the Sox. (5 years at 25 per)

[Northern Star]

No doubt. It would be an excellent decision. The problem is, you would have to wait until he hits FA and see what he is offered. Based on the sox stance, there is no way they'll be the top bidders in the FA marketplace and it sounds like Lester wants fair market value. Regardless, you'd be stupid not to deal him unless you find middle ground on a contract that he agrees to before Aug 1

 

And why WOULDN'T he want fair market value? Are the Sox seriously thinking he would take a ludicrous hometown discount like their initial offer? They need him more than he needs them, and they should have put up a decent offer by now.

[vjcsmoke]

There's a number of teams rumored to be asking for Lester, in particular the Orioles and Mariners. But I think we need a star outfielder as a principal in return or a few high quality prospects who might be ready to contribute at the MlB level as soon as next year to pull the trigger on a lester trade.

 

http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2014/7/28/5946547/red-sox-trade-rumors-jon-lester-deal-looking-more-likely-with-orioles-mariners-interested

[jacksonianmarch]

If Lester walks the Sox will not be in the hunt for the playoffs in 2015. Lester leaving leaves the staff without an ace, and you no where he will end up signing which strengthens the enemy while it weakens the Sox. (5 years at 25 per)

 

Without a massive infusion of cash into the payroll, the sox aren't contenders in 2015. This is a pretty healthy team. You cant really look at injury. A lot of guys got old quick and the kids weren't ready. This is not a great team having a down yr. This is a bad team having a terrible year.

[reYoukilis]

Bad teams dont win WS. We're a good team that are seriously, seriously underperforming. Ellsbury doesnt account for the massive dropoff.

[sk7326]

Oh this team is a major bounceback candidate - run prevention is fine, kids have gotten better (Bogaerts less so though post ASG has been better). This has been an unlucky year in a lot of ways. Some of the dropoff was anticipated (CF), some of it wasn't at all (SS, 2B, C, RF). Bradley will be better next year (he has improved during the season already) and Bogaerts almost certainly will (it is theoretically possible a 22 year old regresses and he is not a real starter - but that is very very unlikely). Betts is at least interesting in a corner and they have a lot of options at catcher. Papi has had a lot of poor batted ball luck but has shown no real signs that his days of being an impact hitter are anywhere near finished.

 

Trading Lester for a decent return makes sense. While his agent might not be happy with Lester's comments - he works for Lester, not the other way around. Lester is going to be very attractive and if the Red Sox are serious, they can win the auction. Now, Kemp is a very dicey, high risk return for Lester ... is a LF who has not shown any ability to be an MVP level player sufficient return? I'd say absolutely not. Can 2 months of Lester net the Sox a Top 50 prospect? Possible, but might have to wait until 3:59 Thursday to know.

[sk7326]

Its not permanent, but I have been turned off from this management group for quite some time. The offseason before Crawford and Gonzalez really started turning me away from them. They won the WS last year, and I should be thrilled about that, but im not....because I hate the ownership group that much.

 

Im sure you remember my absolute bashings of the front office.....well, I feel the same way. The Sox won 2 titles in their reign in spite of them, not because of them......they were too talented to f*** up. Last year was the biggest baseball fluke since Brady Anderson's 50 HR, not complaining as I enjoyed every minute of it, but a spade......is always a spade, unless David Blaine is around the corner.

 

1. The view in 2004 is shortsighted as it gives no credit to the 2002-2003 offseason. The front office, for basically nothing landed a batting champ, a Sox living legend and a key contributor to the World Series team. In 2004 they landed their best closer since Radatz and some loudmouth who ran a video game company into the ground but could really f'ing pitch - not to mention easily the best manager this team has had since Joe Morgan certainly, and probably since Dick Williams. Duquette did a good job, but the entire management structure since is exponentially better.

 

2. Last year was actually pretty easy to predict - not the wire-to-wire best team in baseball, but the notion the Sox'd be pretty good. Between 2010-2012, this team was ... obliterated ... by injury problems. They watched injuries turn one of the league's 5 or 6 best hitters into replacement level goo and absolutely demolish their starting rotation. Just by not being hurt, this team was clearly a wild card contender. When they got an almost-MVP sort of season from Victorino which nobody had predicted, and a bullpen that were carried by 3 guys who were all afterthoughts when the season started, as well as a #2 starter who suddenly pitched like a real #2 (with his elbow sewn back together)

 

This year, you basically have six positions (LF, CF, RF, C, SS, 2B) which have seriously underperformed compared to 2013 ... the big dropoff which has been hard to anticipate has been in the corners. It is hard to be any sort of offensive force when your corners are not producing. The losses in CF, 2B and SS have been problematic obviously, but some of that dropoff was expected (2B less so). But there is reason for hope on most of those fronts.

[Spudboy]

I, for one, am tired of the subject. I don't see the Sox garnering anything very useful if they trade him before the deadline and I don't see the Sox brass ponying up to make a near-market value offer $ / years to sign him either during the season or in November. He's just gone and we have to deal with it.

 

I am absolutely against a swap for Kemp even if the Dodgers eat a substantial chunk. Who knows if Kemp will ever be totally healthy and what he may produce if he gets there.

[Palodios]

I don't see the Sox garnering anything very useful if they trade him before the deadline.

 

Based on what I have been reading, Lester is the premier trade chip this season. With Tampa holding onto Price, and Cliff Lee struggling with injuries/ineffectiveness, Lester is that guy.

 

How many times has this argument been made: If you can win a championship by trading top prospects and mortgaging the future, do it. Teams know how good Lester is, and saw him dominate the World Series last year. The Red Sox are going to get a significant prospect for him. Even if that prospect is used as a centerpiece to trade for someone next offseason, the value will still be there.

[Spudboy]

Based on what I have been reading, Lester is the premier trade chip this season. With Tampa holding onto Price, and Cliff Lee struggling with injuries/ineffectiveness, Lester is that guy.

 

How many times has this argument been made: If you can win a championship by trading top prospects and mortgaging the future, do it. Teams know how good Lester is, and saw him dominate the World Series last year. The Red Sox are going to get a significant prospect for him. Even if that prospect is used as a centerpiece to trade for someone next offseason, the value will still be there.

 

Of course I understand all this Pal.

 

I just don't think that it will happen.

[Palodios]

The list of suitors is the Blue Jays, Mariners, Brewers, Cardinals, Dodgers, Orioles and Marlins. Someone is going to overpay.

[Spudboy]

The list of suitors is the Blue Jays, Mariners, Brewers, Cardinals, Dodgers, Orioles and Marlins. Someone is going to overpay.

 

I think that we can safely cross Baltimore and Toronto off that list.

 

I may point a finger or too at the FO for screwing certain things up but I give them enough credit not to deal Lester within the division.

 

That would be just insanely stupid business.

[Spudboy]

This should make Jacko happy.

 

[Palodios]

I think that we can safely cross Baltimore and Toronto off that list.

 

I may point a finger or too at the FO for screwing certain things up but I give them enough credit not to deal Lester within the division.

 

That would be just insanely stupid business.

 

At worst, Lester would make 1 or 2 starts against the Red Sox. It would also lower the chances of the Yankees getting to the playoffs. If the O's or Jays are willing to give up real value that hurts their own future for the sake of one year, then the FO may be pull the trigger.

[VA Sox Fan]

This should make Jacko happy.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]206[/ATTACH]

 

It's been bad enough with Jacoby wearing the pinstripes. Some how more nauseating to see Lester in them. UGH!

[Spudboy]

It's been bad enough with Jacoby wearing the pinstripes. Some how more nauseating to see Lester in them. UGH!

 

Yeah. I just did it as a joke. You probably saw the same photo on boston.com

 

I hope that it doesn't happen but I fear the worst!

[Northern Star]

All I'm hearing while we talk about dealing Lester is how we need to DFA or otherwise rid ourselves of Bucholtz and Doubront. I think I even heard suggestions of moving Lackey too.

 

Um....that's a shitload of arms shipping out, including Peavy. Who's replacing them?

 

I know it's too late to do a deal with Lester, but I really wish they had locked him up already. We need a stable, consistent presence in the rotation.

[Bellhorn04]

Lester has been scratched from tomorrow's start. We may have seen him pitch for the last time as a member of the Red Sox.

[jad]

Lester scratched for tomorrow night. I guess I don't understand how you 'build for the future' by getting rid of your best player. Although I do see that getting rid of Jacoby caused a huge turn-around in their record the following year ...

[a700hitter]

This whole Lester situation is so distressing. The FO has bungled the season and they have mishandled the negotiations with our best pitcher to the point that it looks like he will be traded. It doesn't matter to me who they get in return for Lester. As far as I am concerned, the FO screwed up the situation irredeemably. If we get the #10 rated prospect in return, I will not feel better about it. How can I get excited to lose a top 10 major league pitcher and All Star for a #10 rated prospect? I can't.

[seabeachfred]

Lester scratched for tomorrow night. I guess I don't understand how you 'build for the future' by getting rid of your best player. Although I do see that getting rid of Jacoby caused a huge turn-around in their record the following year ...

 

I saw this coming last December when the front office started hemming and hawing about a new contract for Jon. I saw the palsied hands of Larry Lucchino in this and while this is only my opinion I think it was that bastard who sent his errand boy Ben out with that insulting offer last Spring. The good will built by our team in 213 has now been totally destroyed by owner Prune Face and his despicable companion Larry the Louse.

[example1]

This whole Lester situation is so distressing. The FO has bungled the season and they have mishandled the negotiations with our best pitcher to the point that it looks like he will be traded. It doesn't matter to me who they get in return for Lester. As far as I am concerned, the FO screwed up the situation irredeemably. If we get the #10 rated prospect in return, I will not feel better about it. How can I get excited to lose a top 10 major league pitcher and All Star for a #10 rated prospect? I can't.

 

It's been a while a700. I had to come back and dialogue at perhaps the biggest transitional time for the Sox since the departure of Pedro, Damon etc., after 2004. May not stick around but here's my 2c.

 

As you can probably predict, my stance is that trading Lester makes sense to me from a long-term strategic perspective. I don't think they should pay Lester market value for 5-6 years. I think top market value contracts for pitchers almost always ends up under-performing. It's hard to find counterexamples.

 

So I think there's a good possibility that they weren't going to resign Lester anyway for solid reasons. If that's the case then of course it makes sense to trade him for the best available pieces. Especially if they are out of the playoffs this year. Especially if Lester is pitching better than he ever has. Especially if a number of pretty loaded teams are in need of a starting pitcher exactly like him for a playoff run. All the factors seem to be aligning for a great haul.

 

Now, as for trading a top 10 pitcher for a #10 prospect--it's a good point but, like an optical illusion, it's misleading. Lester has been a top 10 pitcher for the past few years. Signing him as a top flight pitcher now is speculating that he will continue to be over the next 6 years, which is a different matter. History says he won't, and even if he does he'll cost a ton of money for that added value. Best case scenario the Sox break even. As for the prospects, they could get a very nice player, an everyday guy who any team would be happy to have. Maybe two of those guys. For 6 years each at almost no cost. Then there's the cost of the contract itself--maybe 24m a year.

 

The deal is basically:

Other team gets: Lester's next 6.5 years

Red Sox get: MLB-ready prospect or two and whatever $24m buys in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020

 

From that perspective I think it makes sense without even knowing who the prospects are. Ideally it will be a batter with some pop.

 

That would leave them with a lot of money and a ton of prospects. They could deal for Stanton (partially supplied by whoever they acquire here) and still have a lot of depth to put around him.

 

All that said, it's painful to think of Lester pitching elsewhere. He's been a consummate professional and a big game performer. Hard to argue that he's been anything but positive for the Red Sox for his tenure there. I can see the argument that he deserves a lot of money for that--he does and he will get it. It just doesn't have to be paid by the Sox.