Should we resign Jacoby Ellsbury?

[User Name]

jung, you are conflating things on the Drew issue. Your initial point was that "all that Drew offers is BA". That is completely and thoroughly incorrect in every sense of the word. Drew had a .777 OPS and 111 OPS+. He was even reasonably productive by standard measurements regardless of positional value.

 

The point that he looks better because SS is an offensive black-hole league wide is correct, but the merits of Drew's platform season hold up on their own. Specially considering that a lot of the time he missed was due to a concussion, since projecting his numbers over 145 games without the initial concussion backlash make his numbers look even better. The whole "but he hit 7th and is not part of murderer's row" argument is not valid. He would've hit in a much better position had he played for a team that didn't have as much firepower as the Sox. It's all about context.

 

You are looking for an argument where there is none. Drew had an outstanding 2013 season offensively and defensively and will parlay it into an outrageous contract that will have us saying "Whew, Glad the Sox dodged that bullet" sooner rather than later.

[sk7326]

All of which got Drew a slot 7th or 8th in a lineup that you would not consider murderer's row. If he had power that mattered he would be batting higher in the order. Again his offense looks better than the average SS but the average SS can't hit his weight these days. It just does not matter, for all but the top two or three offensive SS's in baseball. Nor do I think anybody will be convinced that his power numbers will improve from where they are....but 20 points of BA....that is doable and would move his salary projections a long long way IMO. BA improvement is what he gives you to work with if you are trying to convince somebody to pay 12-14 per on a three year deal. Since there is no baseball, the only game anybody can play is the "what will you pay me game".

 

For months we often mused as did the rest of baseball that the Sox even with Napoli could not adequately protect Ortiz. This team was not some power monster. This team generated offense out of implementing a team wide process and being staunch enough as a group, stubborn enough to stick with it and not fall apart into trying to satisfy their separate, individual goals. They instead stuck with the idea that their separate, individual goals were best satisfied by sticking with the team wide process. The only regular that swam against that tide was Ells early in the season when he tried to pump his HR numbers. Finally when there were no HR's worth talking about to show for his effort and his BA had fallen below 250, he finally gave that up, jumped on the bandwagon and started to approach his AB's like a lead off hitter. He was never as patient as we would have liked but save a few more walks he started producing in 2013 like you would expect a lead off hitter to produce, made up all the ground he had lost trying to hit dingers and turned in a very good year IMO.

 

It will be really interesting to watch what happens with the guys that leave Boston. I expect Salty to suffer away from this team at this stage of his career both in the field and at the plate. Drew will be fine if some team signs him and keeps him stuffed down there about 7th or 8th in the lineup as I don't expect his defense to suddenly leave him in one year. If somebody signs him for a bunch of money and moves him up the order....watch out! Naps might end up facing expectations that are tough for him to meet if he leaves but I expect him back here. Ells will go from the top of this order to the top of some other team's order. He should be fine wherever he goes.

 

He batted 7th or 8th ... for the league's best offense. And he was 2nd among SSs in the AL (6th overall, 500 PAs qualify) in OBP - which is the thing BA was supposed to measure in the olde days. This offense was a juggernaut - but they used more of the script of the vintage 1998-2000 Yankees teams. A lot of power and a lot of patience, but spread across a lot of places. The teamwide approach was not really different from the 2003-2007 days, it just looks striking compared to the hot steaming mess of 2012. Drew was not among our best hitters - but he was among the best hitting shortstops ... which does indicate quite a bit about our lineup. He has limitations as a hitter - basically a fastball hitter - but like Napoli, the patience wallpapers over a lot of it. He is a pretty effective offensive player - and a 16 game slump shouldn't really move the needle one way or the other. There are some front offices who still get all googly eyed at batting average, but they are fading fast.

[jung]

In the first place, the 2004 and 2007 teams had the traditional monsters in the middle of the order approach to offense. They had Ortiz and Manny. Nothing the 2013 team fielded came close to that sort of means to an offensive end. The 2004 team put the young Youk, Johnny Damon, Bill Mueller with Varitek contributing a .390 OBP and a .872 OPS around those two guys. The 2013 team had nothing that got even within pissing distance of that.

 

The 2007 team again had the monsters in the middle surrounded by Youk now in his prime, the up and coming Pedey, JD Drew, the much younger Ells, Mike Lowell and Varitek still contributing a .367 OBP and a more modest .787 OPS.

 

No less an authority than David Ortiz himself is not bashful about saying the 2013 team was not what either the 2004 or the 2007 teams were for talent. For Ortiz to have said that at all with a very straight face suggests that the gaps between the 2004/2007 teams and the 2013 teams were great indeed.

 

As for Drew and his "OBP/OPS" I have said it since coming here. Baseball is going back to its roots. Nobody is going to look at those offensive numbers for a SS and attach anything significant to them. SS is going back to the time before Jeter. However I should also note that I doubt that is the sort of player that will draw relatively huge salary numbers. Saying a SS had this offensive ranking amongst SS's and that ranking amongst SS is like saying a VW GTI or a Subaru WRX is a racy sports car. Yea against a bunch of rice burners....but put them next to a 1970 440 magnum charger and they are pussy cats. Ortiz is the Charger and Drew is the Subaru in this example. Only the top two or threw SS's across the offensive categories generate that sort of offensive interest and well they should because their offensive production leads to runs. You are asking GM's to put Drew's offensive production in the same category with those guys and it just it not going to happen. It just is not going to move the needle much.

 

The best way to look at it within the Sox team is by looking at Pedey and Drew. Both play middle infield. Both are defensive stalwarts with Pedey being a bit flashier than Drew. SS is the more defensively oriented position than 2nd but not by much and neither are positions that necessarily make you think offense compared to defense. But are we ever going to think about Drew's offensive contributions in the same breadth with Pedey's???? No not now not ever. A few points of BA is about the only thing Drew can do to lift his offensive numbers enough as a SS to make himself more of a stand out. Iggy is ranked higher than Drew in OBP for AL SS's. Do we think Iggy is some sort of offensive monster?

 

OBP and OPS are just wonderful as we all know and BA is past its prime. But at the end of the day, in order to be considered relevant to a team's offense you have to produce runs. You have to muscle your way into the part of the lineup where you can be driven in or can drive somebody else in. Drew is 17th in Runs and while being 5th in RBI's for SS's Tulo, at the top of the RBI list for SS's only drove in 82. Drew is 7th in OPS if you count Hanley Ramirez shortened season at 304 AB's. Is Drew in the same class with Hanley? NOT. He is 10th in OBP if you count Peralta and Hanley. Is Drew in the same class with either Hanley or Peralta offensively? ....NOT. By the way...MLB has Drew officially at 442 regular season AB's.

 

If Boras can convince some team to pay Drew based in part on his actual offensive production, more power to him. He will get my vote for agent of the year if he pulls that one off. If he gets somebody to pay Drew in part for his offensive potential, I would be more willing to believe that one but again I would bet it will be because he can convince somebody of his offensive value in the traditional sense for SS's not based on some SS power expectation. Just putting those two things in the same sentence is hard to do and we would not be considering it at all were it not for the whacked out steroid era numbers. As for my take on steroids and there effect on the numbers. I am of the mind that at one point in baseball's history well over 50% of all players were using something.....maybe more and I am also of the mind that the pip squeaks, the Braun's of baseball skewed their numbers through usage more than any other category....meaning SS's for one.

 

You can parse numbers any way you want to and have them say anything you want them to say but if you are not producing runs your offense just does not matter. SS's are in the main defensive players. They have been defensive players throughout history and if you take away the steroid era where we had pip squeaks that naturally had warning track power at best knocking the ball outta' the park then they have always been in the main defensive players paid the way baseball tends to pay mainly defensive players. The only exceptions within SS are the guys who can generate offense that is meaningful to run production. Anything beyond run production is picking through the chaff after the wheat is already gone.

[User Name]

jung, making an even longer post doesn't validate your point. Also, saying that OBP/OPS don't matter when teams are judging a SS's value in negotiations has to be the most asinine thing i have ever read on this site. Drew's low R+RBI total were also afflicted by his low games total and position in the lineup. This is common sense stuff. Let's just stop this discussion here.

[sk7326]

In the first place, the 2004 and 2007 teams had the traditional monsters in the middle of the order approach to offense. They had Ortiz and Manny. Nothing the 2013 team fielded came close to that sort of means to an offensive end. The 2004 team put the young Youk, Johnny Damon, Bill Mueller with Varitek contributing a .390 OBP and a .872 OPS around those two guys. The 2013 team had nothing that got even within pissing distance of that.

 

The 2007 team again had the monsters in the middle surrounded by Youk now in his prime, the up and coming Pedey, JD Drew, the much younger Ells, Mike Lowell and Varitek still contributing a .367 OBP and a more modest .787 OPS.

 

No less an authority than David Ortiz himself is not bashful about saying the 2013 team was not what either the 2004 or the 2007 teams were for talent. For Ortiz to have said that at all with a very straight face suggests that the gaps between the 2004/2007 teams and the 2013 teams were great indeed.

 

As for Drew and his "OBP/OPS" I have said it since coming here. Baseball is going back to its roots. Nobody is going to look at those offensive numbers for a SS and attach anything significant to them. SS is going back to the time before Jeter. However I should also note that I doubt that is the sort of player that will draw relatively huge salary numbers. Saying a SS had this offensive ranking amongst SS's and that ranking amongst SS is like saying a VW GTI or a Subaru WRX is a racy sports car. Yea against a bunch of rice burners....but put them next to a 1970 440 magnum charger and they are pussy cats. Ortiz is the Charger and Drew is the Subaru in this example. Only the top two or threw SS's across the offensive categories generate that sort of offensive interest and well they should because their offensive production leads to runs. You are asking GM's to put Drew's offensive production in the same category with those guys and it just it not going to happen. It just is not going to move the needle much.

 

The best way to look at it within the Sox team is by looking at Pedey and Drew. Both play middle infield. Both are defensive stalwarts with Pedey being a bit flashier than Drew. SS is the more defensively oriented position than 2nd but not by much and neither are positions that necessarily make you think offense compared to defense. But are we ever going to think about Drew's offensive contributions in the same breadth with Pedey's???? No not now not ever. A few points of BA is about the only thing Drew can do to lift his offensive numbers enough as a SS to make himself more of a stand out. Iggy is ranked higher than Drew in OBP for AL SS's. Do we think Iggy is some sort of offensive monster?

 

OBP and OPS are just wonderful as we all know and BA is past its prime. But at the end of the day, in order to be considered relevant to a team's offense you have to produce runs. You have to muscle your way into the part of the lineup where you can be driven in or can drive somebody else in. Drew is 17th in Runs and while being 5th in RBI's for SS's Tulo, at the top of the RBI list for SS's only drove in 82. Drew is 7th in OPS if you count Hanley Ramirez shortened season at 304 AB's. Is Drew in the same class with Hanley? NOT. He is 10th in OBP if you count Peralta and Hanley. Is Drew in the same class with either Hanley or Peralta offensively? ....NOT. By the way...MLB has Drew officially at 442 regular season AB's.

 

If Boras can convince some team to pay Drew based in part on his actual offensive production, more power to him. He will get my vote for agent of the year if he pulls that one off. If he gets somebody to pay Drew in part for his offensive potential, I would be more willing to believe that one but again I would bet it will be because he can convince somebody of his offensive value in the traditional sense for SS's not based on some SS power expectation. Just putting those two things in the same sentence is hard to do and we would not be considering it at all were it not for the whacked out steroid era numbers. As for my take on steroids and there effect on the numbers. I am of the mind that at one point in baseball's history well over 50% of all players were using something.....maybe more and I am also of the mind that the pip squeaks, the Braun's of baseball skewed their numbers through usage more than any other category....meaning SS's for one.

 

You can parse numbers any way you want to and have them say anything you want them to say but if you are not producing runs your offense just does not matter. SS's are in the main defensive players. They have been defensive players throughout history and if you take away the steroid era where we had pip squeaks that naturally had warning track power at best knocking the ball outta' the park then they have always been in the main defensive players paid the way baseball tends to pay mainly defensive players. The only exceptions within SS are the guys who can generate offense that is meaningful to run production. Anything beyond run production is picking through the chaff after the wheat is already gone.

 

On-Base is the very act of not producing an out - this is not new fangled anything. Stephen Drew produces fewer outs than most shortstops this side of Tulowitzki or Jose Reyes or that ilk. A lineup of players who do not produce outs will score a ton - we just saw one of those. The Yankees and Red Sox have combined for 7 titles in the last 15 years on the back of this philosophy. Maybe folks did not track it like in the old days, but unless managers had brains made of jello, not producing outs has generally been insanely valuable.

 

(This team was not as good as the 2004 entry, and probably better than the 2007 one, though the pitching drives that ... much closer than it looks at C, worse at 1B, better at 2B, SS ... worse-ish at 3B, worse at LF, better in CF and RF. Rotation in 2013 was better, and bullpen was a tie, manager was worse but not by a margin that matters)

 

Comparing Drew to Pedroia accomplishes very little in this argument - since Pedroia has been one of the top dozen or so position PLAYERS in the entire league the last 7 years. So Drew does not stack up next to one of the best players in baseball - wonderful. Iggy had a higher OBP than Drew - it was also an entirely outlying season based on some luck which his ability to hit line drives does not support. Drew's season had a high BABIP of course, but not really out of line with his career - and he has always been a line drive hitter.

[Dojji]

Iggy is ranked higher than Drew in OBP for AL SS's. Do we think Iggy is some sort of offensive monster?

 

Had to pull this out of the uberpost above to make a point.

 

here's the thing about Stephen Oris "Not JD" Drew.

 

Pick an aspect of playing shortstop at the major league level. Any aspect.

 

Stephen Drew is average or better at that aspect, either for his position or overall.

 

Defense? Above average. Contact and OBP? Above average for a SS. Power? Above average, great for a SS. Speed? Solidly average.

 

His worst tool is his average speed, Jung. Yes, his best tool is also merely above average, but that's why you don't just focus on one aspect of a player when evaluating him. This is a well-rounded, accomplished all-around SS who just helped his team to a World Championship. If he was any more consistent in maximizing his toolset he'd be considered 5 tool, unfortunately he is not able to do that consistently for a full season.

 

Comparing him to Iglesias because they had similar OBP's is textbook cherry-picking. Iglesias has phenomenal defense, a bit of speed, and a bit of contact, full stop. What he does best is better than Drew at that one or two things but he has far more holes in his game, and the overall package, I can comfortably say is worse overallif you compare what the two mens' best years will look like at the end of their respective careers.

 

Besides, I think we all know instinctively that the year he had last year with Boston is going to be somewhere around his high water mark. The lion's share of Iglesias' offensive production centers around a .303 average fueled by a .356 BABIP, that's unlikely to be sustainable for a slap hitter. With Drew, I think you could comfortably predict a similar season next year, maybe even a better one. He's a better bet to be consistent and give you something along some vector of the shortstop game at any given time, exactly because he has so much to add.

 

The only reason not to go hard after Drew this offseason is a combination of the presence of Bogaerts and the fact that Drew is probably going to get overpaid by some team that doesn't have to fight the grass-is-greener mentality to recognize the talent that he is..

[marklmw]

Had to pull this out of the uberpost above to make a point.

 

here's the thing about Stephen Oris "Not JD" Drew.

 

Pick an aspect of playing shortstop at the major league level. Any aspect.

 

Stephen Drew is average or better at that aspect, either for his position or overall.

 

Defense? Above average. Contact and OBP? Above average for a SS. Power? Above average, great for a SS. Speed? Solidly average.

 

His worst tool is his average speed, Jung. Yes, his best tool is also merely above average, but that's why you don't just focus on one aspect of a player when evaluating him. This is a well-rounded, accomplished all-around SS who just helped his team to a World Championship. If he was any more consistent in maximizing his toolset he'd be considered 5 tool, unfortunately he is not able to do that consistently for a full season.

 

Comparing him to Iglesias because they had similar OBP's is textbook cherry-picking. Iglesias has phenomenal defense, a bit of speed, and a bit of contact, full stop. What he does best is better than Drew at that one or two things but he has far more holes in his game, and the overall package, I can comfortably say is worse overallif you compare what the two mens' best years will look like at the end of their respective careers.

 

Besides, I think we all know instinctively that the year he had last year with Boston is going to be somewhere around his high water mark. The lion's share of Iglesias' offensive production centers around a .303 average fueled by a .356 BABIP, that's unlikely to be sustainable for a slap hitter. With Drew, I think you could comfortably predict a similar season next year, maybe even a better one. He's a better bet to be consistent and give you something along some vector of the shortstop game at any given time, exactly because he has so much to add.

 

The only reason not to go hard after Drew this offseason is a combination of the presence of Bogaerts and the fact that Drew is probably going to get overpaid by some team that doesn't have to fight the grass-is-greener mentality to recognize the talent that he is..

 

Dealing with Drew and Ellsbury is quite simple. The Sox would sign both if they did not have young studs ready to fill in for a combined 1/32 of the cost. Why is this so hard to comprehend. The stars are aligned and nobody is looking up to notice. How often does an organization get so lucky where their top 2 prospects happen to fill 2 positions being vacated by free agents who are going to be overpaid by someone. I like both Drew and Ellsbury and I am sure that both enjoyed playing for a championship team this year but this is their profession so they have to max out their earnings when they are lucky enough to have the opportunity to do so. If Ellsbury does not find a club to overpay him which is highly doubtful I would love to see him back. He is one of the premier lead off hitters in the game today.

[redsoxrules]

Iggy had a higher obp in large part to his

Lucky ass infield singles. He had an insane amount of those that will hard to duplicate next year.

[SoxSport]

Iggy is a soft hitter. Myers was a much better choice for ROY.

 

As for MOY, it was the Baseball Writers Association at its ugly worst, with it's west coast hostility (and ignorance due to the scheduling imbalance) to the east coast evident in picking Francona as MOY instead of the obvious choice, Farrell.

 

Farrell's team not only had a better record by 5 games, but also was first in the best division in baseball--coming from last place last year. A rare last-to-first feat. When you contrast that with Cherington being picked as GM of the year (not chosen by the writers), it shows you how much the writers had their heads up their asses this year in the MOY award--at least in the AL. The embarrassment is theirs.

 

Those writers from the west should pay for admission to Fenway next year, and be banned from the free food and booze enjoyed by the media.

Edited November 13, 2013 by SoxSport

[sk7326]

Iggy is a soft hitter. Myers was a much better choice for ROY.

 

As for MOY, it was the Baseball Writers Association at its ugly worst, with it's west coast hostility (and ignorance due to the scheduling imbalance) to the east coast evident in picking Francona as MOY instead of the obvious choice, Farrell.

 

Farrell's team not only had a better record by 5 games, but also was first in the best division in baseball--coming from last place last year. A rare last-to-first feat. When you contrast that with Cherington being picked as GM of the year (not chosen by the writers), it shows you how much the writers had their heads up their asses this year in the MOY award--at least in the AL. The embarrassment is theirs.

 

Those writers from the west should pay for admission to Fenway next year, and be banned from the free food and booze enjoyed by the media.

 

The schedule imbalance was what it was ... sort of knew it was a two man race. Francona was a worthy choice - and he surely deserved to win in years past (2010 leaps to mind). The worst to first was a great achievement - although when you see who was hurt last year and healthy this year, the Red Sox were a good team on paper entering this season. Bob Melvin has been excellent recently also.

[SoxSport]

The schedule imbalance was what it was ... sort of knew it was a two man race. Francona was a worthy choice - and he surely deserved to win in years past (2010 leaps to mind). The worst to first was a great achievement - although when you see who was hurt last year and healthy this year, the Red Sox were a good team on paper entering this season. Bob Melvin has been excellent recently also.

 

I saw the voting on the BBW website. The Bos, NY,Balt, TB writers voted for Farrell. One NJ writer voted for Tito. The two Toronto writers voted for Tito. The West coast writers voted for Tito and Melvin. Two west coast writers from Seattle left Farrell off the ballot.

 

The GM voting was done by the GMs. The MOY voting should be done by the managers. Maybe the players should do the players voting, too. Screw the writers. Too much politics.

[sk7326]

I saw the voting on the BBW website. The Bos, NY,Balt, TB writers voted for Farrell. One NJ writer voted for Tito. The two Toronto writers voted for Tito. The West coast writers voted for Tito and Melvin. Two west coast writers from Seattle left Farrell off the ballot.

 

The GM voting was done by the GMs. The MOY voting should be done by the managers. Maybe the players should do the players voting, too. Screw the writers. Too much politics.

 

Oh managers and players would do worse. That would be a lot of reputation votes (look at what the players do for all star reserves). It was hardly an injustice. Tito, Farrell and Melvin all had reasonable claims, and honestly if Joe Girardi got a couple of votes that would not be wrong either. It's not like a writer voted for Ron Washington or anything.

 

And what does manager of the year measure - really. It measures which team outstripped expectations the most. There are good managerial performances on bad teams and vice versa - happens all the time.

[Bellhorn04]

And what does manager of the year measure - really. It measures which team outstripped expectations the most.

 

And generally the only way writers can figure that is by going with the guys whose teams had the biggest improvement in wins.

 

When Tito was with the Red Sox I think the highest he finished in the voting was 3rd or 4th. But he had a big handicap because he inherited a 95-win team - tough to improve on. With Cleveland he inherits a 68-win team and bingo, wins the award.

 

Silly IMO.

[sk7326]

And generally the only way writers can figure that is by going with the guys whose teams had the biggest improvement in wins.

 

When Tito was with the Red Sox I think the highest he finished in the voting was 3rd or 4th. But he had a big handicap because he inherited a 95-win team - tough to improve on. With Cleveland he inherits a 68-win team and bingo, wins the award.

 

Silly IMO.

 

Very much so. IMO, he was excellent here generally, although he grew into the job. Solid early, very good later. 2011 was not one of his better years, but a lot of forces conspired there. But the 89 wins in 2010 showed really how good he has become.

 

Farrell had problems in Toronto and has improved at his job. And he had a good season last year - with some things that could be improved still ever more. He could be a better manager and the team could do worse next year - it is entirely likely in fact.

[jung]

The voting process is kinda' flawed to begin with. There are so many agenda's out there that the real hidden monkey wrench is the number of different reasons separate voters might have to withhold a vote from somebody. I think those tend to tell the story as opposed to the reasons separate voters might have for voting for somebody.

 

Who won't vote for a Manager from a big market team? Who won't vote for an Exec or a Manager from a specific team for any reason. How many voters came from Toronto and would any of them have voted for Farrell? Who will only vote for a Manager based on one very specific criteria. While a different set of voters from the pool votes for Exec of the Year vs Manager of the year I think everybody thought BC was a cinch to win Exec of the Year. Maybe there is a bias against giving Manager of the Year to the Manager from the same team as the GM that won Exec of the Year. Pile all those negative biases up and maybe deserving or not Farrell never really had a chance. Like I said, I think the negative influences to withhold a vote for somebody are more relevant than the positive influences to vote for somebody and that is screwed up.

[sk7326]

One thing to note is that the votes are taken after the regular season ends. So the postseason has no impact - aside from narratives like the MVP not being able to come from a non playoff team or whatever.

[jung]

Well I can see not taking the votes after the post season making some sense though. Unfortunately, I think that if the votes were taken after the post season then not only would the only managers that even had a shot be post season managers but in all likelihood the field gets pared down to the two WS managers.

 

Logic would suggest that with the number of teams making it to the post season, your Manager of the year is likely to come from that group. I am just afraid that the natural tendency would then be to take your Manager of the year from the two guys that made it to the WS. Not sure that would be fair. Not sure what to do about it really. Beat writers are attached to a team. A team is attached to a city. Unfortunately I think once everybody acknowledges that there are biases and it is a subjective process, the number of subjective influences become infinite. "I don't like guys that wear wire frame glasses". It is katie bar the gate once you acknowledge that there are biases in the process. Once that became obvious a few years ago, then I think writers figured they had the freedom to let any bias they might have allow them to withhold a vote from what might otherwise be a deserving candidate. I really don't like that aspect of it but when an individual writer is asked why he did not vote for Manager X, you never hear "well I just think Manager Y was better". You always hear some subjective negative bias BS about Manager X.

[mvp 78]

Who gives a s***? The MOY award is about as important as who gets handed the NL silver slugger for 2b.

[redsoxrules]

A source says the says Mariners have "no interest" in Jacoby Ellsbury but the Cubs appear to be stealthily waiting in the wings (link). The Cubs are probably targeting 2015 to make a move towards contending but its possible that they'll look to make a splash this winter in advance of that.

 

Maybe the Sox can get Ellsbury cheap after all.

[seabeachfred]

Maybe the Sox can get Ellsbury cheap after all.

 

Dream on my friend.....Ellsbury is as good as gone. There are at least two suckers out there who will fight one another to empty the bank for him. We will not.

[vjcsmoke]

Maybe the Sox can get Ellsbury cheap after all.

 

That's just a lot of posturing. Someone is gonna backup a truckload of money right into the lap of Boras and Ellsbury. And from what Henry just said, it sounds like it won't be the Red Sox.

[marklmw]

What is cheap these days. If the Sox could get Ellsbury for 18M per over 6 it will still not make sense with JBJ in our system.

[mvp 78]

Doing a deal over 4 years for an injury prone guy is asking to throw money away. I think Ells will be a star in the short term, but it will get ugly really quick.

[marklmw]

Doing a deal over 4 years for an injury prone guy is asking to throw money away. I think Ells will be a star in the short term, but it will get ugly really quick.

I actually think that Ellsbury is going to do great over the next 5 years but for the money JBJ is a better play.

[Dojji]

What else were we going to do with that money exactly? We're not overflowing with needs that require that we add payroll.

[dupree]

I say give Ells a 5 year deal. One if not the best leadoff guys in the league. He would be hard to replace. Bottom line sign him back

[Bellhorn04]

What else were we going to do with that money exactly? We're not overflowing with needs that require that we add payroll.

 

We have plenty needs. Catcher, first base, bullpen...maybe an extension for Lester.

[mvp 78]

What else were we going to do with that money exactly? We're not overflowing with needs that require that we add payroll.

 

Lester needs a new deal and will get a big payday.

[marklmw]

What else were we going to do with that money exactly? We're not overflowing with needs that require that we add payroll.

Put the money in the bank ... look ... Ellsbury could get injured and so can JBJ. You make logical decisions. I would rather spend 100M on Tanaka than 100M on Ellsbury when you have JBJ. From a payroll standpoint I would rather have the combination of JBJ & Tanaka than Ellsbury & Webster in 2014. Not to demean Webster in anyway.

[Dojji]

We have plenty needs. Catcher, first base, bullpen...maybe an extension for Lester.

 

Catcher is about as much a need as shortstop -- we're only going after a veteran if people don't trust any of our rookies (Butler, Lavarnway, Vazquez) to get the job done alongside David Ross.

 

First base is a legitimate need, but it's our only major need. And we're clearing several large contracts not counting the obvious move you hope to do in clearing Dempster. I just don't see the need to be penny-wise with Ellsbury when it might be pound foolish.