Shoring Up the Rotation

[mvp 78]

Where did this guy come from? He suddenly has been crushing the ball in the upper minors. I've never seen Soxprospects be so incredibly negative about a player -- their excerpt is brutal

 

I believe he signed as a 16 year old. People were all over his nuts for a little while. He then started to suck for a few years and was forgotten about. Good to see him turn things around.

[seabeachfred]

But here's my question: You initially talked about RH power, which the Sox have a bunch of prospects (highlighted by Bogaerts) with very good to great power projection from the right side. If you're talking 1B though, you'd be right, but that wasn't what your post said. And if that is what you're saying, then you'd be wrong. The Sox could use a couple righty power hitters, but nothing is as important as pitching. You can easily buy a RH power hitter on the market, but getting affordable quality pitching has become almost impossible.

 

Well we both agree on a couple of points User. We certainly could use a couple of righty power hitters since we haven't had one since we let Jason Bay walk; well, of course, I forgot, Adrian Beltre. However, you are on he money with the pitching aspect. That's the main part of any team, especially starting pitching and they are not on the market so we have to develop our own or hope we trade for one and catch lightning in a bottle. Still, get me a couple of RH power hitters and hopefully two that can drive in runs instead of leaving them on the bases as we did today in the first game against the Angels----14 at last count.

[Orange Juiced]

Doubs needs to stay healthy and strong and not crap out like last year in the second half.

 

Doubront's season last year:

 

Section 1 (Apr 9-June 2): 11 g, 6-2, 3.75 era, .715 ops, 1.35 whip, 9.5 k/9

Section 2 (June 3-Sep 7): 14 g, 4-6, 6.47 era, .894 ops, 1.66 whip, 8.7 k/9

Section 3 (Sep 8-Sep 29): 4 g, 1-2, 3.08 era, .555 ops, 1.10 whip, 10.6 k/9

 

Really good start and really good finish but a lot of stink in-between.

 

This year, he pitched OK to start the year, had two bad starts in a row, and then has put up this line in his last 5 games:

 

29.0 ip, 25 h, 10 er, 15 bb, 28 k, 3.10 era, .706 ops, 1.38 whip, 8.7 k/9

 

The whip is a little too high (still walks too many for my taste), but he's been very effective. His main problem is the pitch count. His control still isn't what it needs to be, and even if he doesn't walk guys he still throws a lot of pitches, and can't seem to get past six innings.

 

But as a #5 starter? This is tremendous. Costs the Sox nothing, is young and is improving, and has big-time swing and miss stuff. That's a lot to like about a #5 starter.

[Palodios]

Doubront's season last year:

 

Section 1 (Apr 9-June 2): 11 g, 6-2, 3.75 era, .715 ops, 1.35 whip, 9.5 k/9

Section 2 (June 3-Sep 7): 14 g, 4-6, 6.47 era, .894 ops, 1.66 whip, 8.7 k/9

Section 3 (Sep 8-Sep 29): 4 g, 1-2, 3.08 era, .555 ops, 1.10 whip, 10.6 k/9

 

Really good start and really good finish but a lot of stink in-between.

 

This year, he pitched OK to start the year, had two bad starts in a row, and then has put up this line in his last 5 games:

 

29.0 ip, 25 h, 10 er, 15 bb, 28 k, 3.10 era, .706 ops, 1.38 whip, 8.7 k/9

 

The whip is a little too high (still walks too many for my taste), but he's been very effective. His main problem is the pitch count. His control still isn't what it needs to be, and even if he doesn't walk guys he still throws a lot of pitches, and can't seem to get past six innings.

 

But as a #5 starter? This is tremendous. Costs the Sox nothing, is young and is improving, and has big-time swing and miss stuff. That's a lot to like about a #5 starter.

 

I want to mention it again -- Doubront only had one bad start. The other bad game was garbage time relief innings after Webster gave up 8 runs. Doubront probably had no opportunity to do his full pre-game warmups.

 

The other thing to mention about Doubront is that he's been consistently healthy for the first time in his MLB career. In the past he's been very hurt, and he's had plenty of other issues, so we have no idea how his arm is going to respond after the full year in the rotation in 2012.

[a700hitter]

I want to mention it again -- Doubront only had one bad start. The other bad game was garbage time relief innings after Webster gave up 8 runs. Doubront probably had no opportunity to do his full pre-game warmups.

 

The other thing to mention about Doubront is that he's been consistently healthy for the first time in his MLB career. In the past he's been very hurt, and he's had plenty of other issues, so we have no idea how his arm is going to respond after the full year in the rotation in 2012.

The key is staying healthy. We have not had a health starting 5 since 2004. That year we had a couple of studs at the top of the rotation followed be a group of major league average guys. That's all you need at the bottom of the rotation is guys that take all of their turns and pitch to league averages. It will keep the pen fresh all season and help cove up weak spots in the pen by keeping them off the mound.

[a700hitter]

As I have said before, I don"t see Lee becoming available. The. Phis are very much in the wild card chase, and they will need to ride with Lee, Hamels and Kendrick. If the Phillies fall out of the race and become sellers, I think he will go to Texas. I don't think the probability of coming to Boston is very high. I think it would be more likely that we would have a shot to get Papelbon. I realize that he is an anathema on this forum for reasons beyond my comprehension, but I think he is a more realistic option than Lee.

[Bellhorn04]

As I have said before, I don"t see Lee becoming available. The. Phis are very much in the wild card chase, and they will need to ride with Lee, Hamels and Kendrick. If the Phillies fall out of the race and become sellers, I think he will go to Texas. I don't think the probability of coming to Boston is very high. I think it would be more likely that we would have a shot to get Papelbon. I realize that he is an anathema on this forum for reasons beyond my comprehension, but I think he is a more realistic option than Lee.

 

I don't think Lee is a realistic option either. Papelbon could be available but I think it's highly unlikely the Sox would have interest. For one thing the back end of our bullpen has been pretty good. For the other Paps is just too expensive.

 

I've been one of the Papelbon supporters. I think he'll hold up over his contract.

 

I think the adverse opinions on Papelbon come from two things: 1) his contract; 2) his personality.

 

I think we would be better served to look at some other starting pitchers besides Lee that might become available as salary dumps.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I don't think Lee is a realistic option either. Papelbon could be available but I think it's highly unlikely the Sox would have interest. For one thing the back end of our bullpen has been pretty good. For the other Paps is just too expensive.

 

I've been one of the Papelbon supporters. I think he'll hold up over his contract.

 

I think the adverse opinions on Papelbon come from two things: 1) his contract; 2) his personality.

 

I think we would be better served to look at some other starting pitchers besides Lee that might become available as salary dumps.

 

I don't think any of the salary dump pitchers are going to be any better than what we have in our rotation right now. Certainly not enough of an upgrade to merit taking on the salary or giving up any prospects.

[mvp 78]

I don't think Lee is a realistic option either. Papelbon could be available but I think it's highly unlikely the Sox would have interest. For one thing the back end of our bullpen has been pretty good. For the other Paps is just too expensive.

 

I've been one of the Papelbon supporters. I think he'll hold up over his contract.

 

I think the adverse opinions on Papelbon come from two things: 1) his contract; 2) his personality.

 

I think we would be better served to look at some other starting pitchers besides Lee that might become available as salary dumps.

 

I think the anti-Paps crowd isn't really bothered by his personality. It's more of a fact that he's been gone for 18 months and some people feel other posters should move on rather than constantly bringing up Paps everytime it suits them. It's like still pining for your high school gf when she's gotten married and had kids.

[a700hitter]

I think the anti-Paps crowd isn't really bothered by his personality. It's more of a fact that he's been gone for 18 months and some people feel other posters should move on rather than constantly bringing up Paps everytime it suits them. It's like still pining for your high school gf when she's gotten married and had kids.

You have been on record that you didn't like him before he left.

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/710287-post22.html

[mvp 78]

You have been on record that you didn't like him before he left.

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/710287-post22.html

 

And yet I'm not part of the anti-Paps crowd that is being referenced.

 

"STOP PLAYING GOTCHA!" - a700

[a700hitter]

And yet I'm not part of the anti-Paps crowd that is being referenced.

 

"STOP PLAYING GOTCHA!" - a700

You have no credibility to comment on the issue, because you hate the guy. just sayin.

 

Edit: When I play gotcha, I get you. Unlike your attempts.

[seabeachfred]

You have no credibility to comment on the issue, because you hate the guy. just sayin.

 

Edit: When I play gotcha, I get you. Unlike your attempts.

 

This is a case of after the horse left the corral but I wonder whether or not the Red Sox would have resigned Papelbon has they not nearly emptied the till to sign Gonzales and Crawford? You think Ted? Those two signings really took the wind out of our sails, one for a guy who was a carbon copy of Ellsbury and therefore a bad fit for us and another who though a solid hitter was suspect of not being the type of winning player Boston needs and their fans demand.

 

Maybe Bailey will emerge this year for us as a solid closer but let's face it, we've been looking for a solid game-ender ever since we let Paps walk-----plus we never made one attempt so far as I know to sign him.

[a700hitter]

This is a case of after the horse left the corral but I wonder whether or not the Red Sox would have resigned Papelbon has they not nearly emptied the till to sign Gonzales and Crawford? You think Ted? Those two signings really took the wind out of our sails, one for a guy who was a carbon copy of Ellsbury and therefore a bad fit for us and another who though a solid hitter was suspect of not being the type of winning player Boston needs and their fans demand.

 

Maybe Bailey will emerge this year for us as a solid closer but let's face it, we've been looking for a solid game-ender ever since we let Paps walk-----plus we never made one attempt so far as I know to sign him.

Fred, no doubt that after 2011, the owners decided that they had spent enough. There was no money left for Papelbon. That issue was beat to death on this forum. This time I brought him up in the context of an in-season salary dump from Philly if the Phils fall out of the race. If they ate a few million of his salary for the next couple of years, it wouldn't be a bad deal considering all of the dough that they have wasted in failing to find Paps replacement.

 

Paps is a touchy suspect on this forum regardless of the context. There is an inexplicable amount of hatred for a guy who played a huge part in a World Championship and who brought us a lot of joy closing out over 200 wins. If you mention how he is doing for the Phillies, people say "that he is gone and get over it." If you reminisce about his days as a Red Sox, we are told to "stop pining.". I still reminisce about seeing Yaz, Tiant, and Rice. Should I "get over" them and "stop pining". I missed Carlton Fisk for the entire 10 or so years that he played with the White Sox. I can't help but remember the great players that played for us throughout the years. Heck, I miss Nomar and Manny too. So shoot me.

 

[mvp 78]

You have no credibility to comment on the issue, because you hate the guy. just sayin.

 

Edit: When I play gotcha, I get you. Unlike your attempts.

 

Well, if I can't comment on the subject because I may dislike someone, I guess you'll stop talking about Ben and all your other go to posts?

 

At least I can be consistent with my reasoning. Unlike your posts.

[a700hitter]

Well, if I can't comment on the subject because I may dislike someone, I guess you'll stop talking about Ben and all your other go to posts?

 

At least I can be consistent with my reasoning. Unlike your posts.

I never said that I dislike Ben. Criticizing moves or no-moves of Ben is different than hating the guy like you admittedly hate Papelbon. My opinions of Ben's performance are not colored by any personal like or dislike. Your reasoning may be consistent but it is flawed.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I never said that I dislike Ben. Criticizing moves or no-moves of Ben is different than hating the guy like you admittedly hate Papelbon. My opinions of Ben's performance are not colored by any personal like or dislike. Your reasoning may be consistent but it is flawed.

 

To be fair, outside of him being the GM, how else do you know the guy? It's not like you have a personal relationship with him, so virtually your entire opinion of him is based on his performance as a GM. So, if you don't like his moves, it's not like you can say "well I didn't like signing x, but I do like ______" because you (like everyone) have no other knowledge of him. He could be a complete jackass on a personal level, but nobody would know it

 

So, insofacto, his only relevance to your life is as the GM of the Red Sox, so if you don't like him in that light, you don't like him at all.

[a700hitter]

To be fair, outside of him being the GM, how else do you know the guy? It's not like you have a personal relationship with him, so virtually your entire opinion of him is based on his performance as a GM. So, if you don't like his moves, it's not like you can say "well I didn't like signing x, but I do like ______" because you (like everyone) have no other knowledge of him. He could be a complete jackass on a personal level, but nobody would know it

That's right. It is bizarre for people to have personal hatred of a public figure without knowing the person. Yet, there are those who hate Papelbon personally despite his admirable performance for our team. I agree with your post 100%.

[seabeachfred]

Fred, no doubt that after 2011, the owners decided that they had spent enough. There was no money left for Papelbon. That issue was beat to death on this forum. This time I brought him up in the context of an in-season salary dump from Philly if the Phils fall out of the race. If they ate a few million of his salary for the next couple of years, it wouldn't be a bad deal considering all of the dough that they have wasted in failing to find Paps replacement.

 

Paps is a touchy suspect on this forum regardless of the context. There is an inexplicable amount of hatred for a guy who played a huge part in a World Championship and who brought us a lot of joy closing out over 200 wins. If you mention how he is doing for the Phillies, people say "that he is gone and get over it." If you reminisce about his days as a Red Sox, we are told to "stop pining.". I still reminisce about seeing Yaz, Tiant, and Rice. Should I "get over" them and "stop pining". I missed Carlton Fisk for the entire 10 or so years that he played with the White Sox. I can't help but remember the great players that played for us throughout the years. Heck, I miss Nomar and Manny too. So shoot me.

 

 

Well Ted, after our "closer" blew the duke last night and forced into three more innings of toil before our seemingly gutty team won, the talk about Papelbon, should he become available, should make for an interesting piece of talksox talk. However, why on earth would you, me or anyone get touchy over a departed player. All someone has to do is say he didn't think all that much of him, tell why he didn't and agree to disagree on the topic. What is not on the table is for someone to take an opinion about a player and turn it into a personal attack on the person that wrote the missive. This board should be fair for diversity. Hell, I still miss Bill Mueller, my favorite Red Sox player of them all, and I couldn't figure it out in a 100 years why anyone would take umbridge at that.

[User Name]

I don't see you writing ten posts whining about Bill Mueller every time WMB makes an out. That's why. You just answered your own question by the way. We've already presented ad nauseum all the reasons why some think Papelbon should have been retained or let go. It's beating a dead horse on a near-daily basis. It's also the same couple of posters literally stirring the pot every time.

[dupree]

I agree with you User Name its just beating a dead horse about Papelbon.

And as we get closer to the deadline the more this will come up. I believe we need another closer plus atleast one SP by the deadline i just dont want Papelbon back. He left for the money now let him stay away.

[User Name]

Why do we need another closer? If Bailey's healthy he can get it done. I don't get how that hiccups last night turns into "we need a closer" so quickly. Smh.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Bailey's line going into last night was 18.1 IP, 6 BB, 27 K, 1.47 ERA, 2-0, 1 Blsv

 

Doesn't get much better than that, line still looks good after last night also

[jung]

I have a real hard time with the idea of "getting the closer an inning cause he needs it", unless you are prepared to pull him and get him outta' there. Farrell brought Bailey in for a meaningless inning which turned into more pitches than Bailey really should have thrown (24). Then when they really needed Bailey, (Monday night in the Trop) he really struggled.

 

Closers don't hold anything back when they are on the mound. Have him throw on the side if you must. Don't bring your closer into a meaningless situation cause you think he "needs" an inning.

[SoxFanForsyth]

We need a reliable number 2. Lester now has a 4.12 ERA. We need Cliff Lee, that's what we need, or we need Webster to step up.

 

I think Lester may be hurt. He wasn't even close, and you don't just lose your mechanics like that. Usually when you're missing this badly (7 BB today), you're usually compensating for something that throws you off.

[italstallianion]

Good thing the international signing deadline and draft pick signing deadlines are before the trade deadline. We might have a better idea on what prospects we can deal once we know which ones we've signed.

 

(I know we can't trade the ones we drafted yet, but they can replace who we do trade if need be)

[jacksonianmarch]

Good thing the international signing deadline and draft pick signing deadlines are before the trade deadline. We might have a better idea on what prospects we can deal once we know which ones we've signed.

 

(I know we can't trade the ones we drafted yet, but they can replace who we do trade if need be)

 

The guys that are signed via INTL and draft process don't replace those who are proving themselves in the upper levels. Those are typically the guys you want in a trade at the deadline. For all you know, every one of your draft picks could be future HOFers or a bunch of s***

[italstallianion]

The guys that are signed via INTL and draft process don't replace those who are proving themselves in the upper levels. Those are typically the guys you want in a trade at the deadline. For all you know, every one of your draft picks could be future HOFers or a bunch of s***

 

They don't replace them right away but they replenish the system, and if we know that we just signed a lot of potential top prospects in the draft/international market, I think we'd be more able to trade our established prospects in a Cliff Lee like trade.

[SoxFanForsyth]

They don't replace them right away but they replenish the system, and if we know that we just signed a lot of potential top prospects in the draft/international market, I think we'd be more able to trade our established prospects in a Cliff Lee like trade.

 

The Sox have enough depth right now, especially after signing the likes of Trey Ball and John Denney (or, drafting, and they'll sign) that they can afford to give up some prospects for a guy like Lee and be just fine.

 

You give up one of your pitching prospects (likely Webster or Barnes) and then a guy like Cecchini (AA talent, top 25 prospect), and another piece for Lee and you probably get a small side piece from the Phillies too.

 

You've left yourself with Webster/Barnes, RDLR, Workman, Ranaudo, Bogaerts, Bradley, Swihart, Vazquez, all still in the system.

[BSN07]

Cuban right-hander Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez, who has drawn the attention of the Dodgers, has been declared a free agent and will have a showcase in Tijuana, Mexico on June 20th, a source tells Jesse Sanchez of MLB.com (via Twitter). The Cubs, Rangers, Twins and Red Sox have also been linked to the promising hurler.

 

From what I've read so far, the guy is supposed to be almost MLB ready. Maybe he's an option to bolster the rotation. At least he won't cost prospects and 25M a year.