2013 Spring Training

[a700hitter]

It looks like the Saturday game against the Rays will be televised on a delay basis by NESN. The game will be on radio at 1:35. Not sure what time they are going to show the game. Looks like the first live TV game will be Wednesday next week against Baltimore......FINALLY

Thanks, SFF!

[Bellhorn04]

I was jk. I'm a Bard supporter. I'm making fun of the tools around here that are under the impression he will never be able to pitch again after a failed attempt at trying to become a SP.

 

Let's be fair now. Bard didn't just fail at being a SP. He lost a lot of velocity and he also lost his control. His walks and hit batters were off the charts. It's not unreasonable for people to think he might be another case like Steve Blass or Rick Ankiel. It happens.

[a700hitter]

Let's be fair now. Bard didn't just fail at being a SP. He lost a lot of velocity and he also lost his control. His walks and hit batters were off the charts. It's not unreasonable for people to think he might be another case like Steve Blass or Rick Ankiel. It happens.

He didn't just fail. He blew up so thoroughly that he couldn't get anyone out at AAA for 2 1/2 months relief outings. His ERA was over 7.

 

To give some historical perspective, I read that Bard's final start with the Sox was so bad that no starter in MLB history had had such a terrible start since the 1910's. This was not just an historic bad start for a Red Sox pitcher.

[jung]

But there is a chance for Bard I think. By the same token I still think they will have to keep it really simple for him if they are going to get anything out of him. I do suspect that regardless of the fact that he can throw hard when he is right, I believe that both he and the Sox are going to have to be satisfied with a diminished role. If not I feel pretty confident that he will be screwed up again and maybe this time for the last time.

[Station 13]

He didn't just fail. He blew up so thoroughly that he couldn't get anyone out at AAA for 2 1/2 months relief outings. His ERA was over 7.

 

To give some historical perspective, I read that Bard's final start with the Sox was so bad that no starter in MLB history had had such a terrible start since the 1910's. This was not just an historic bad start for a Red Sox pitcher.

 

That AAA trip did not help him. What would was shutting him down. If they saw it in the first few weeks it wasn't working, he should not pick up the ball from there. They kept dragging him out while the team was floundering and not going anywhere and he wasn't needed.

 

An earlier reset might benefit him.

[iortiz]

I would give him a chance to redeem himself. After all he has showed that he can throw at 100 mph. Start giving him some innings in no-pressure situations and see if his stuff still there. I still believe that his issue is mental and the kid needs to regain confidence first.

[Dojji]

I agree with that. Little to lose by finding out gently if the kid has anything left, and if he does, huzzah.

 

Counting on him for setup innings out of the gate is delusional.

[reYoukilis]

I agree with that. Little to lose by finding out gently if the kid has anything left, and if he does, huzzah.

 

Counting on him for setup innings out of the gate is delusional.

Can you imagine if he finds his old form? This bullpen is already great, on paper.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

We've been good "on paper" for years. Enough with the poor performace from this team, there needs to be some improvement. Last year was unacceptable.

[Palodios]

We've been good "on paper" for years. Enough with the poor performace from this team, there needs to be some improvement. Last year was unacceptable.

 

I read this post, and assumed it was a700. Take that as you will.

[jung]

If Bard does find his old form I think they would be best served if they avoided that stage where they lick their chops about what Bard could be. Be happy with what they have and leave it alone!

 

I remember all those posts about how intelligent Bard seems and what he could become etc etc.

 

The jury is in. Bard goes out there and at his best throws outs until somebody comes out from the dugout and takes him off the mound. That is it! Anything more complicated, like working through a lineup multiple times, even working through an inning with some sort of organized plan just does not fly with him. He does not do that and suffers some sort of overloaded circuitry when he tries.

 

Now there are limitations to what a pitcher can do when he pitches the way Bard does but it is what it is. If he can throw again they should take what they can get and be happy with that.

[reYoukilis]

If Bard does find his old form I think they would be best served if they avoided that stage where they lick their chops about what Bard could be. Be happy with what they have and leave it alone!

 

I remember all those posts about how intelligent Bard seems and what he could become etc etc.

 

The jury is in. Bard goes out there and at his best throws outs until somebody comes out from the dugout and takes him off the mound. That is it! Anything more complicated, like working through a lineup multiple times, even working through an inning with some sort of organized plan just does not fly with him. He does not do that and suffers some sort of overloaded circuitry when he tries.

 

Now there are limitations to what a pitcher can do when he pitches the way Bard does but it is what it is. If he can throw again they should take what they can get and be happy with that.

How was he intelligent? Seemed like he threw fastballs until the batter got used to the speed and then hit it.

[jung]

How was he intelligent? Seemed like he threw fastballs until the batter got used to the speed and then hit it.

 

Don't ask me. I wasn't posting that he seemed like an intelligent kid etc etc. I remember seeing those posts though.

 

At least he has a chance to pitch. If he does he does. I no longer have any expectations for him. I just hope that he finds a way to at least pitch to a level that keeps him employed. While some of this is his own doing, he deserves a better than he has gotten up till now.

[Palodios]

If Bard does find his old form I think they would be best served if they avoided that stage where they lick their chops about what Bard could be. Be happy with what they have and leave it alone!

 

They'll never give him another starting role. If Farrell is smart, he'll turn into a relief ace in middle innings. That way he won't have the pressure of 8th/9th inning, but at the same time he'll still add plenty of value to the team.

[mvp 78]

Bard was fine in the 8th. Not sure he needs to be a 6-7 guy.

[seabeachfred]

We've been good "on paper" for years. Enough with the poor performace from this team, there needs to be some improvement. Last year was unacceptable.

 

It was more than unacceptable 305, it was totally disgraceful. Here we were "celebrating" the 1oo Anniversary of Fenway Park and they put that pig of a team on the field. This year I'm going to wait to see how they're playing before I plunk down between $2,500-3,000 dollars for a trip to Boston. I hear you're going. You might do the same---be sure this team is worth the money you spend or else watch them on MLBTV or when they are on ESPN. Of course, a little piece of advice as to why you should wait until the summer. You can freeze your ass off in April and May. That wind blows in from the Bay and it goes right through you.

 

Bard was a big topic today on this thread and there is one way the Red Sox can show if they are serious about winning or not. There must be no Auld Lang Syne for good old Bard. If he doesn't have it he put be sent down to Pawtucket or Portland to get his s*** together and my fear is that front office is trying to piece together a dramatic story of a comeback that might not be one at all in Bard's case. If he isn't one of the better relievers he has to go

[Palodios]

Bard was fine in the 8th. Not sure he needs to be a 6-7 guy.

 

Are you familiar with the term relief ace? The idea is that you use your best reliever in the highest leverage situations, ie two baserunners and no outs in the 6th.

 

The Red Sox could get high value out of him, without necessarily putting him back into the fire.

[reYoukilis]

Don't ask me. I wasn't posting that he seemed like an intelligent kid etc etc. I remember seeing those posts though.

 

Excuse me, I meant I wonder what others saw in him that was intelligent.

[mvp 78]

Are you familiar with the term relief ace? The idea is that you use your best reliever in the highest leverage situations, ie two baserunners and no outs in the 6th.

 

The Red Sox could get high value out of him, without necessarily putting him back into the fire.

 

Ah yes, the ol' closer by committee gag. No thanks...

 

But your point contradicts your previous " wont have the pressure" comment if you're still using him in a high leverage situation.

[Palodios]

Ah yes, the ol' closer by committee gag. No thanks...

 

I have no idea where you found that from my posts. Hanrahan is the closer, and that's where he should be.

 

But your point contradicts your previous " wont have the pressure" comment if you're still using him in a high leverage situation.

 

Bad closers lose games. Bad middle relief makes games harder to win.

[a700hitter]

I read this post, and assumed it was a700. Take that as you will.

I'll take that as RSFFL is gaining wisdom.

[mvp 78]

I have no idea where you found that from my posts. Hanrahan is the closer, and that's where he should be.

 

 

 

Bad closers lose games. Bad middle relief makes games harder to win.

 

You said to use the best reliever in highest leverage situations. That was the impetus for the closer by committee nonsense.

[Palodios]

You said to use the best reliever in highest leverage situations. That was the impetus for the closer by committee nonsense.

 

I also gave an example, which clarified what I meant.

[Dojji]

Bard was fine in the 8th. Not sure he needs to be a 6-7 guy.

 

Are we just going to pretend 2012 never happened?

 

Right now, Bard is lucky to be a 6-7 inning guy. We'll see what he earns his way back to. It's by no means a lock that he's even a major league pitcher anymore, much less just blindly assuming that he's good as he was before he exploded on the runway last year..

 

Pretending that he'll just go back to where he was just because he's now back in the bullpen is just as delusional as the people who kidded themselves last year that he'd be fine if he was converted back to the pen. Someone wand to remind people how that worked out? And in AAA ball no less?

 

Until Bard shows otherwise, I maintain that the kid was done in September of 2011, and that everything after that has just been the consummation of the same downward spiral. Rotation, relief, don't matter. That whole debate was a complete red herring and the kid was cooked the year before.

[mvp 78]

Are we just going to pretend 2012 never happened?

 

Right now, Bard is lucky to be a 6-7 inning guy. We'll see what he earns his way back to. It's by no means a lock that he's even a major league pitcher anymore.

 

It's not a lock. I think he should start the season in RI. I just think that IF he regains his form, he's their best setup guy.

[Dojji]

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts...

 

Seriously. Take Bard as he comes. Even if he comes out of the gate a lot stronger than I actually expect, I don't want him anywhere near high leverage innings until halfway through the year or later. I'd like to give him a full year to recover his stuff and confidence if it's possible to do it.

[Spitball]

Are you familiar with the term relief ace? The idea is that you use your best reliever in the highest leverage situations, ie two baserunners and no outs in the 6th.

 

The Red Sox could get high value out of him, without necessarily putting him back into the fire.

 

I believe Tony LaRussa is guilty of creating the closer role. Why? In my honest and unbiased opinion,LaRussa was one of the most egotistical managers in the history of baseball. He was afraid of being second guessed (see Whitey Herzog's book You are Missing a Great Game). The closer role took the responsibility for the 9th inning away from the manager and straight onto the closer appointed with the responsibility of closing the game. It was a brilliant idea if you want to take the responsibility for strategy away from the manager.

 

Closers rarely pitch with runners on base. Shouldn't the best relief pitcher be used in the strategic opportunities when runners are on base and the best batters are coming to the plate? The term "Fireman" from the 1960s was born because the best reliever (see Dick Radatz) was brought in to stop a rally (fire) and not to simply end a game against any three batters.

[Dojji]

I don't see why a manager making his own decisions easier in the game is a problem to be perfectly honest. The man has enough to do just getting 25 ridiculously overinflated egos through 9+ innings at a time. If you can find a guy who thrives in the 9th inning role, what's the problem?

 

Most of the real arguments I've seen centered around the closer's role v relief ace argument miss the point. That point being, it's always going to take more than 1 bigtime arm to make a good bullpen.

 

It doesn't matter if you use your sole reliable arm in the closer's role or in a more freewheeling relief ace role. Whichever role he's not playing is going to result in the team getting exposed.

 

in other words, if you can't fill your staff with enough talented roleplayers to fill multiple high-leverage roles, it doesn't matter much which role isn't filled. If, on the other hand, you have a number of viable options, it doesn't matter which guy fills any given role. There is therefore no situation in which this debate is significantly meaningful.

[Spitball]

I don't see why a manager making his own decisions easier in the game is a problem to be perfectly honest. The man has enough to do just getting 25 ridiculously overinflated egos through 9+ innings at a time. If you can find a guy who thrives in the 9th inning role, what's the problem?

 

Most of the real arguments I've seen centered around the closer's role v relief ace argument miss the point. That point being, it's always going to take more than 1 bigtime arm to make a good bullpen.

 

It doesn't matter if you use your sole reliable arm in the closer's role or in a more freewheeling relief ace role. Whichever role he's not playing is going to result in the team getting exposed.

 

in other words, if you can't fill your staff with enough talented roleplayers to fill multiple high-leverage roles, it doesn't matter much which role isn't filled. If, on the other hand, you have a number of viable options, it doesn't matter which guy fills any given role. There is therefore no situation in which this debate is significantly meaningful.

 

This is kind of rambling, but I believe you are saying that it does not matter when quality relief pitchers are used. Is that corrcect?

 

I believe that the manager should be responsible for determining when is the best strategic situation for the best relief pitcher to face the best batters in order to win a given game.

 

If the manager decides his best relief pitcher should just face the last three batters (even if they are the 7, 8, and 9). then he is avoiding a strategic decision.

[Dojji]

I disagree. There's some numbers that say that a closer of sufficient talent derives a consistent benefit to his team in terms of wins. If a manager trusts that predictable benefit more than his own ability to pick and chose 2 PA's ahead of time which spots to insert a guy into, which is what it takes to give that guy a chance to warm up in the bullpen, that in itself is a strategic decision, and one that has some merit.