2013 Spring Training

[SoxSport]

Once again we see a complete reluctance to place any blame on the those running the team for the disaster that has engulfed our team the past four seasons. Certainly you can't blame them for some of the injuries we've sustained, though you could hang the medical staff with it, but some decisions boggle the mind. We all knew that Papelbon was gone when the 2011 season was over because the front office was not going to hand him such a contract as the Phillies did. The guy who might have moved into the closer's role was Bard. We will never know how he would have done but it is too much to expect that he was the heir apparent? Instead Cherington and Bard himself decide to turn the guy into a starting pitcher. He's been sucking wind since.

 

Well that's piss down the porcelan and we have to hope these kind of haired brain decisions are a thing of the past. For the good of all our sanity Ted we have to just put the past behind us and look ahead to what we hope will be better days.

 

That's true in any organization. The higherups never take the blame. And even if they do, they are immune to getting axed or penalized.

 

Just saw that Moneyball movie. Nice scene at Fenway where Henry offered Beane $12.5 million to be Red Sox GM in '02. Didn't say number of years but probably 4-5? DePodesta (Beane's asst) was going to be new A's GM--wanted Youkilis from the Red Sox for Beane. Beane turned down the Red Sox because he didn't want to give up Youkilis.

[a700hitter]

That's true in any organization. The higherups never take the blame. And even if they do, they are immune to getting axed or penalized.

 

Just saw that Moneyball movie. Nice scene at Fenway where Henry offered Beane $12.5 million to be Red Sox GM in '02. Didn't say number of years but probably 4-5? DePodesta (Beane's asst) was going to be new A's GM--wanted Youkilis from the Red Sox for Beane. Beane turned down the Red Sox because he didn't want to give up Youkilis.

That's the beauty of baseball. The fans can hold the suits responsible. The sell out streak isn't stopping because of chicken and beer or Bobby V. It's going to stop because the fans don't like the quality of the product being fielded. The 2013 team will have to win right out of the gate to drive their ticket sales, because they don't have compelling stars or personalities.

[mvp 78]

Once again we see a complete reluctance to place any blame on the those running the team for the disaster that has engulfed our team the past four seasons. Certainly you can't blame them for some of the injuries we've sustained, though you could hang the medical staff with it, but some decisions boggle the mind. We all knew that Papelbon was gone when the 2011 season was over because the front office was not going to hand him such a contract as the Phillies did. The guy who might have moved into the closer's role was Bard. We will never know how he would have done but it is too much to expect that he was the heir apparent? Instead Cherington and Bard himself decide to turn the guy into a starting pitcher. He's been sucking wind since.

 

Well that's piss down the porcelan and we have to hope these kind of haired brain decisions are a thing of the past. For the good of all our sanity Ted we have to just put the past behind us and look ahead to what we hope will be better days.

 

My point was you can't only blame the FO. Players need to be blamed too. I NEVER said you can't blame the FO for anything.

 

I really can't believe how dumb you are. No way were you a teacher. Your reading comprehension skills are pathetic...

[Palodios]

Did anyone read the article with John Henry the other day? He says that Larry Lucchino "revolutionized the game" and his career "requires a hall of fame election". Ew.

[a700hitter]

My point was you can't only blame the FO. Players need to be blamed too. I NEVER said you can't blame the FO for anything.

 

I really can't believe how dumb you are. No way were you a teacher. Your reading comprehension skills are pathetic...

The players are accountable on the spot. They get a hit, make an out, make an error, etc. How much more accountable can they be held? Unless they are simply not trying, there is no reason to give them accountability beyond their stats. IMO, the players try their best. Sometimes the players aren't good enough. That's really not their fault. They are limited by their talent which the FO and the scouts are paid to evaluate.

[a700hitter]

Did anyone read the article with John Henry the other day? He says that Larry Lucchino "revolutionized the game" and his career "requires a hall of fame election". Ew.

Paid for by FriendsofJohnHenry.org.

[BSN07]

Did anyone read the article with John Henry the other day? He says that Larry Lucchino "revolutionized the game" and his career "requires a hall of fame election". Ew.

 

lol he's def a ballwasher

[jung]

Did JH elaborate? I gotta' hear this. Just how exactly did LL "revolutionize the game".

[SoxSport]

The folks upstairs can influence the performance on the field, by their selection of the players and by the team's style. For example, the Red Sox have shown in recent years a disdain for stealing bases (while allowing their opponents to steal them blind), and a propensity for their hitters to be up there swinging away--instead of allowing the situation to dictate the strategy. This prompted one ex-player announcing a game to say they weren't playing as a team in spite of their considerable talent (when AdGon and Crawford were playing). This style of behavior can only have come from upstairs--at the manager level or higher. Perhaps Tito had his hands tied. We don't know. We do know that conflict between the FO and the manager is common--who to play on the field and how to play.

 

Farrell was asked yesterday in an interview why Ellsbury hadn't even attempted a stolen base in ST so far.

He didn't give a straight answer. Said you might expect more during the season. Last year, Ells stole only 17 bases--below his career frequency based on PAs. Could be he is a bit gunshy on the basepaths following his injury on the ground at 2B. Farrell's Toronto team was 5th in SBs last year (Red Sox were 10th), so you would expect more SB emphasis this year, especially with Victorino and maybe Bradley in the lineup. Plus Pedey, who will get his 20 SBs. Hopefully, Farrell will get his way on this--the team as constituted needs to move baserunners better to generate more runs for its questionable pitching. The starting pitching has looked good in ST so far, but that may be just a mirage. Relying just on the long ball

won't get them far.

[reYoukilis]

That's true in any organization. The higherups never take the blame. And even if they do, they are immune to getting axed or penalized.

 

Just saw that Moneyball movie. Nice scene at Fenway where Henry offered Beane $12.5 million to be Red Sox GM in '02. Didn't say number of years but probably 4-5? DePodesta (Beane's asst) was going to be new A's GM--wanted Youkilis from the Red Sox for Beane. Beane turned down the Red Sox because he didn't want to give up Youkilis.

Well with that kind of logic, maybe its for the best that he didnt get signed.

[jung]

The Sox mouthpieces.....I mean NESN broadcast team has been peddling the idea that team play and offensive strategy is down across baseball, meaning that "everybody is doing it" according to them. Nobody is stealing bases, running hit and run, going to the plate with a plan that fits into an overall team philosophy or that even fits the circumstance (guy on second and one out etc etc). This Spring is the first time I have heard them make that claim. I tend to agree that it is generally down. The teams that do field an actual recognizable offensive strategy that you can identify do seem to be fewer and fewer. I can't deny it since I have been saying it here for over a year at least. However I think they are overstating this case. In the NL for example you just cannot ignore that big hole down there in the 9 spot. So is it any wonder that the Giants looked way more like a team working behind an offensive strategy than their opposite number from the AL.

 

I for one was really alarmed at the lack of general plate discipline exhibited in the AL last year and the relative ease with which hitters just got totally dominated by the pitching once we got to crunch time in September and then the post season. More often you see the level of play elevated on both ends with good pitching still able to undo good hitting but with more balance than we saw last year. The post season performance by the AL hitters was generally a total embarrassment last year. It was like none of them had ever seen a slider before...just terrible and to me boring as hell for the most part.

 

Now the NESN guys seem to be trying to provide me an answer to a question that I have posted here on several occasions this off season. Will this trend continue this year? They seem to be saying yes. I really hope not. I thought what we saw last year was downright terrifying if that is where we are going. I had been hoping that MLB would finally come up with a way to control PED's forcing teams to give up what looks insane to me. Allowing guys to just go up to the plate and just hack away seems to me to be a disaster waiting to happen and not what we would actually want for baseball. Do we really want to get to a day where a big part of that game that takes place between the pitches just goes away?

 

To me this is critical time for baseball if this is actually what is going on. The NFL is much more popular and has a financial formula that is probably much more realistic although the NFL players have made concessions this last time that may really spin around and bite them in the butt. MLB was fortunate to have the NHL turn out to be too dumb for its own good forcing yet another work stoppage on its fans.

 

To me MLB may have begun to rely too heavily on the peripheral aspects of being a fan. Oh goody, its a nice sunny day and I get to go sit in the bleachers, drink bear and watch the Red Sox. Really????? Watch them do what exactly......go to the plate, take three quick hacks and go sit down again? Most of the games are now at night anyway. So for the most part they are competing with "Dancing with the Stars" and whatever horse s*** reality TV mess is currently popular.

[Bellhorn04]

Interesting comments there jung...you really like to look at the big picture. Supporting what you're saying is that the NL was won 3 Series in a row now.

 

I won't be surprised to see something done to boost run-scoring. It won't be a rule change though. More likely they'll juice the baseball a bit...or teams will take the easy way Seattle did to get more balls to leave the yard...move those fences in baby!

[reYoukilis]

Thats the sabremetrics philosophy though. Get on base so the big bats can bring em home. What Ive read, the stat nerds think its counterproductive to trade outs for base advancement, ie stealing, hit and run, and bunting.

 

EDIT - Also consider that the reason the NL has won the last three WS is that the NL team has won the last three All Star games, thus ensuring their home field advantage. A horribly stupid rule if there ever was one that I would bet damn good money has determined AT LEAST one WS, probably more considering the AL teams were considered more talented.

[Big Guy]

bradley and iglesias starting the season????

[NZSox]

bradley and iglesias starting the season????

 

Probably deserve to!

 

3 hits today for Iggy and a .273 AVG for Spring Training = much better offensive output than any of us expected.

 

3-run HR for Bradley today and a sac fly to boot.

 

Opening day lineup starting to look like:

 

Ellsbury

Victorino

Pedroia

Napoli

Middlebrooks

Gomes

Bradley

Ross (seems likely he'll catch for Lester)

Iglesias

[Bellhorn04]

bradley and iglesias starting the season????

 

Sure looks that way.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Probably deserve to!

 

3 hits today for Iggy and a .273 AVG for Spring Training = much better offensive output than any of us expected.

 

3-run HR for Bradley today and a sac fly to boot.

 

Opening day lineup starting to look like:

 

Ellsbury

Victorino

Pedroia

Napoli

Middlebrooks

Gomes

Bradley

Ross (seems likely he'll catch for Lester)

Iglesias

 

Exactly what I think it'll be.

[SoxSport]

Can't help but think Selig has Henry's ear about Bradley, what with the JR movie 42 coming out, and his desire to see more African Americans in MLB. Has to help the kid, since he has a real shot at being a star player. African Americans tend more to football and basketball these days--it's the Caribbean kids who are dominating in baseball. PR-wise, Bradley is very valuable right now, aside from his obvious maturity and ability. Says a lot about drafting college grads with talent. They should need less minor league time, and cost less to develop.

 

Bradley could be the most exciting new Red Sox player in many years.

[Station 13]

really impressed with Middlebrooks again today, could had a 4-4 day if they didn't ruled a ball hit at Rollins as an error. The ball was well hit. Another ball that look to found the gap but robbed by Mayberry (?). He's developing into a potent bat.

[jung]

Thats the sabremetrics philosophy though. Get on base so the big bats can bring em home. What Ive read, the stat nerds think its counterproductive to trade outs for base advancement, ie stealing, hit and run, and bunting.

 

EDIT - Also consider that the reason the NL has won the last three WS is that the NL team has won the last three All Star games, thus ensuring their home field advantage. A horribly stupid rule if there ever was one that I would bet damn good money has determined AT LEAST one WS, probably more considering the AL teams were considered more talented.

 

Virtually every post WS interview from the retired ballplayer/TV analysts said that the Giants played much better as a team than the Tigers did, had a much more identifiable team approach to their offense and just drove it down the Tigers throat. The Giants did not eke out a win there. They completely destroyed the Tigers. They could have played that series on Mars and the result would not have been different.

 

Getting on base and letting somebody drive you home is as old as the hills. It is surely as old as Weaver's three run homer Orioles. That is no excuse for simply allowing guys to go up to the plate completely independent of the circumstance just hacking away and it is definitely no excuse for the utter lack of plate discipline exhibited during much of the post season particularly by AL teams. The AL hitters were cannon fodder for the AL pitchers in the post season and they were cannon fodder for the NL pitchers in the WS.

[Big Guy]

 

Ellsbury

Victorino

Pedroia

Napoli

Middlebrooks

Gomes

Bradley

Ross (seems likely he'll catch for Lester)

Iglesias

 

That's a lineup sox fans can get excited about! With a little luck maybe they can keep up their ST numbers and stay on the club all year :thumbsup:

[Dojji]

If this kid starts in the bigs, then when he starts to get expensive, the fact that he's more expensive than he has to be when they could have just sat him for 12 games will be counted as one of "Cherries' blunders" in the calculus of hindsight that takes place in every single season after this one.

 

I don't even have to call it a prediction or put any money behind it. Every single person on this board knows it for a verified fact.

[seabeachfred]

My point was you can't only blame the FO. Players need to be blamed too. I NEVER said you can't blame the FO for anything.

 

I really can't believe how dumb you are. No way were you a teacher. Your reading comprehension skills are pathetic...

 

I'm only dumb when I have to read the gobbledy gook s*** you write. You're never clear about anything but you skirt around the edges to try to leave yourself some wiggle room and that only makes your missives even shittier. If I had students who were so obtuse as you writing an essay on this they would have been lucky to walk out of there with a "C".

 

You ever have trouble getting the meaning of anything I write? You sure as hell don't because I'm a clear as can be-----no gray areas at all and brutally frank. And who the hell said I was specifically thinking of you anyway Brooklyn and California refugee? You're one of a few here who defend the front office most any time out and your occasional criticism of them is so tepid it comes off like so much mush.

 

And I was a teacher for 35 years, and on three of those occasions refugee I was voted "Teacher of the Year", and when the US Army tested me when I was sworn in my IQ was measured at 132. Not exactly stupid.

[seabeachfred]

If this kid starts in the bigs, then when he starts to get expensive, the fact that he's more expensive than he has to be when they could have just sat him for 12 games will be counted as one of "Cherries' blunders" in the calculus of hindsight that takes place in every single season after this one.

 

I don't even have to call it a prediction or put any money behind it. Every single person on this board knows it for a verified fact.

 

You have a point Dojii and I'm not disagreeing with you but there are other things to consider here as well. First of all, the Red Sox are not a down and out team money wise, they are loaded. Secondly, we don't know how long Ellsbury is going to be out of action, and knowing how fragile he is this heel sprain could turn into a long vacation. Thirdly, Bradley can hit and he can field and he can run and we need talent like that. He may be ready or he may not be ready but our team this season is going to have to run more, bunt more, hit and run more and even squeeze a run home once in awhile. The day of the dull Francona station-to-station double play machine is over or should be.

 

OTOH, you say what's 12 games if we can pick up a season for Bradley? On the face of it it sounds good, but I think this year the team can ill afford to get off to another rocky start, its third in four seasons. Your counter argument is that those 12 games may not be that important if our pitching is good, and we'll be facing a lot of lefties out the gate. Surprisingly, I think Cherington is backed into a corner on this and has a very tough decision to make. If Ells isn't made of glass or tin and gets back quickly, you may see Bradley start down at Pawtucket. If not, he may start with the Red Sox. I really think the injury Jacoby suffered to day and its seriouness will determine that for us. Just my opinion.

[Big Guy]

Missing out on a year before eligibility for only 20 games does seem shortsighted but I think if there was ever a time to do it, it's this team right now.

 

There's an open spot on the roster and hes super hot going into the season. Even if when he slows off, which he obviously will at some point, and David gets back you could just send him down for a while to save that eligibility.

I think there is little doubt the best possible Sox lineup for April 1 is above, anything else I think is a disapointment. After the past few seasons I want to see a little urgency, and a real change of culture, rather than more "promising" commercial ads.

[BSN07]

Missing out on a year before eligibility for only 20 games does seem shortsighted but I think if there was ever a time to do it, it's this team right now.

 

There's an open spot on the roster and hes super hot going into the season. Even if when he slows off, which he obviously will at some point, and David gets back you could just send him down for a while to save that eligibility.

I think there is little doubt the best possible Sox lineup for April 1 is above, anything else I think is a disapointment. After the past few seasons I want to see a little urgency, and a real change of culture, rather than more "promising" commercial ads.

 

It's not even 20 games, It's like 12 days in April.

 

lol dojji and that's if he does good. First 0-15 slump and Cherries nuts will be going on the block for believing the kid was going to be able to slide right in at the ML level after only playing at AA

 

In the end I think Bradley is on the team to start and heads back to AAA when Ortiz comes back if there is no other everyday spot available.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Pete Abe made a really good point earlier -

 

Ben Cherrington and John Farrell can't afford to be looking to 2019 right now because there's a good chance that they won't even be around then if things don't go well over the next year or two. The Red Sox can't afford to stumble out of the gate, either, or the Sox will be losing a lot more revenue this year than they'd be gaining by keeping Bradley around in 2019.

 

My stance remains to start him in Boston and demote him once Ortiz gets back. If he's hitting something crazy like .420 when Ortiz gets back, deal with it then, because if that's the case, then there's a good chance that the Red Sox are also winning a lot of ball games. And if a full year of Bradley is the difference between making a deep playoff run or golfing in October, you give up that 1 year in an instant.

 

There are absolutely psychological effects to getting out to a hot start, the team starts believing in itself, confidence grows, etc. There are a lot of factors, and the Sox should certainly not be swayed away from trying to win baseball games in 2013 just because of a little extra money in 2019.

[jung]

JBJ hitting .420 = Sox winning a lotta' ballgames??? Since when? This is my problem with this whole discussion.

 

In the first place there is no guarantee that they will win a single game more out of such a small sample as 12 because JBJ is here, if he is here. Once again the historical flaw in everything Sox comes right to the top. If he hits .420 and they pitch like s***, they are not winning a lotta' ballgames. If he hits .420 and nobody hits around him, they are not winning a lotta' ballgames, at least not because of him. As a rook he may not even have a lineup spot that will make his production whatever it is all that meaningful over such a small sample size.

 

Then you have the issue of where you play him. As he has already proved more than once this spring, he is not a LFer. We need to disavow ourselves of this idea that all of the outfield positions are the same position. They are not and they never were.

 

By the way, if JBJ were to be able effect the outcome of even one game in April, if this team does not have the nuts to win meaningful games in September when the intensity is turned way up and the focus is sharpened by all the contending teams, whatever he does in April will not matter one lick.

[Palodios]

Pete Abe made a really good point earlier -

 

Ben Cherrington and John Farrell can't afford to be looking to 2019 right now because there's a good chance that they won't even be around then if things don't go well over the next year or two. The Red Sox can't afford to stumble out of the gate, either, or the Sox will be losing a lot more revenue this year than they'd be gaining by keeping Bradley around in 2019.

 

This is a good point. Lots of GMs make rash moves, trading away elite prospects in order to get talent into their organization, and try to keep their own jobs. I'd rather lose one year of Bradley than see them trade him away for mediocre talent in desperation.

[jung]

There is another aspect to gambling with JBJ in the opening day lineup to consider. Suppose JBJ is in the opening day lineup and the Sox still stumble out of the gate. What does the Sox fan have to look forward to then? What happens to ticket sales then?

 

Another aspect of this discussion that is almost comical is that once here he will be sent down. It ain't happening folks. Once he is here he is here and that last year of control will be lost regardless of how little it will take to pick it up. If the Sox don't have the stones to deal with this now when all he has to show us is a hot ST at the plate, think about that, a hot ST, anybody that thinks the Sox will have the stones to deal with this at some later date has got "stones" if not "rocks" in his head.