A weird time to be a Red Sox fan

[mvp 78]

Feel bad for the ones who suffered before 04. If you think we got it bad, Red Sox fans went 86 years before witnessing a title. Those are the fans I respect. I've always hated Boston fans in every sport but the Sox fans are making their way up there now.

 

They've won 2 more than I thought they would in my lifetime. I can't complain about a down season. The past 12 months have been a little exhausting though.

[mvp 78]

And in terms of crappiness of the fan base, it goes:

Pats

Sox

Anyone that has gone to BC

Celtics

Bruins

 

I think C's and B's fans aren't overly annoying. C's can be bandwagony and B's fans were endearingly miserable for decades.

[a700hitter]

It wasn't unreasonable to think this team would be much better than it is. I for one did accuse you of being negative but not of being a lousy fan. You are negative and have been since I have known you. This year it worked out for you.

 

I didn't hear people saying that the first half injuries would be the worst in baseball or that Doubront would be the best pitcher for the first 3 months and Lester would be the worst.

 

Even the most dire prognostications didn't see this terrible team as a certainty.

E1, for as long as you have known me, you have always been wrong about me. You still don't get me and you project onto me. I wasn't negative in 2007 or 2008. In 2009, people were worried in August that Texas and Tampa would catch us for the Wild Card. I was confident and told people that Texas and Tampa would fold, and they did. Last year, I was thrilled about our prospects going into the season, and I was completely baffled by their slow start. When late August and early September came I could see things were going badly and that they were headed for a collapse. Was I just being negative and I got lucky that time as well?

 

Negative? No, negative to that. Critical? Yes, but you can't honestly analyze something without being critical. If an analysis points out only strengths and good things, it's not worth anything. People who analyze like that are just pom pom wavers. Is that how I should characterize you, E1-- as a pom pom waver? I have probably logged more hours of watching baseball than many posters have been alive on this forum. When I say someone stinks, they generally stink. If I say that we don't have enough pitching, we probably don't. That's not negative. That's a rationale assessment. What's positive is that no matter how bad the Sox are I always watch them with the hope that they will win.

 

You say that "[t]his year it worked out for {me}". That's a really odd statement. You may enjoy them losing because it will give them a better draft choice. I am not enjoying this one bit. The losing has affected my mood this summer, and last September I had a headache every night starting at 5 pm and it got worse as the night wore on. I can watch and root and hope for my team even when I know rationally that they are not good. That's positive.

 

You say that "it wasn't unreasonable to think this team would be much better than it is." Well, yeah duh. I have repeatedly posted that they are far worse than I had expected them to be. I never expected them to be one of the worst teams in baseball. I never expected the wheels to come off so early, but I did know that they would not be a strong contender and that the division was probably out of reach. The second wild card was a possibility as far as I was concerned, but not the division. We came north with thin starting pitching and a closer that had never closed and no good back of the bullpen options. The injuries did not kill this team. Lousy pitching killed this team. The injury that impacted us most was the injury to bailey, and was anyone really surprised that he got injured? Strong teams are not built like that. People who analyzed the team critically could see what the pom pom wavers like yourself could not see.

[RedSoxNC84]

Yes, a very large one.

 

Ba-zing!

[SoxSport]

Bad management can really wreck a team quickly. You can complain about the players, but the management calls the shots. If they screw up, it can wreck a team. That's why I say they need a clean slate upstairs if they are going to turn this thing around. Unfortunately, that doesn't usually happen unless the Company is about to fail. The Sox have indeed failed, but the fans are still coming and the company is solvent again thanks to the Dodgers.

[Spitball]

We haven't played under .500 since 1997. If they lose 90 games, it will be the first time since 1966. Even I don't remember that team. This is not normal. Being out of contention by the middle of August is not normal, and I have been rooting for them for 45 years.

 

I remember 1966. The Sox were bad. They finished half a game out of last place just ahead of the Yankees. They were bad, but at least they were better than the 1965 team that lost 100 games. In 1966, they were bad but improving...and no one expected the miracle of 1967.

 

I remember in 1966 the Sox traded away two of my favorite pitchers in Dick Radatz and Earl Wilson. George Scott was a rookie and had an incredible first half. They played a guy at second base named George Smith who was Nick Punto-lite. Jim Lonborg was beginning to seperate himself from the endless string of terrible pitchers coming from the minor leagues.

 

I also remember going to a game that year with a friend of mine and his dad. We walked up and got seats a few rows behind the Red Sox dugout. Jerry Stephenson was the starting pitcher against the Kansas City Athletics and was walking everyone.

 

The reason I remember this game so well I suppose is because of something that happened before the game. My friend and I were trying to get autographs but were being totally ignored by the players.

 

Then we asked outfielder Lenny Green for his autograph. He was the only one who even acknowleged us. He pointed to an usher up in the stands. Green said, "See that man up there? If I sign an autograph, he'll kick me out of the ballpark. I've got a ballgame to play." We totally believed him.

 

When we got back to our seats and told my friend's dad what we'd been told, he laughed and laughed until he was wiping tears from his eyes.

 

That friend and I laughed about also through the years.

[Brennan]

Hell, I said in April that this was a .500 team at best. I was crucified for it and after finally being told to shut up or get lost I have done my best to be optimistic until I snapped last night. I'm done ranting but I have to say that watching folks who have been fans for 50 years tell fans that have been fans for "only" 30 years that they aren't entitled to call a spade a spade is frustrating to say the least. To question their fandom is just criminally stupid. Listen, wether you have been a fan for 2 years or 70 years you are a fan. This sucks for each and every one of us. And we can all be happy that the mega trade gives us a chance for a clean slate just as we were all happy to see 2 championships. So what if some fans suffered for 40 years before seeing the 2 WS wins while some got to see them after being fans for less than a decade? Got battle scars? Sorry about that. Can we just move on now?

[jung]

It will be hard for this Sox management group to fight off its instincts. Its instincts will be to spend a bunch of effort and a bunch of money to sign a big bat before it even has a strategy or a plan or has made a single move to deal with the real problem if they want to win games...the starting pitching.

 

If we see no evidence even of a plan on the pitching front and find ourselves in the middle of a massive effort to sign Hamilton, watch out! You don't need a monster bat to have a competent, cohesive and competitive offense. You are not going anywhere without pitching.

[Behindenemylines]

Its been awhile since the baseball season has ended so early. Its hard to believe that in August of 2011 the Sox were one of the better teams in baseball. Thats a long fall in a short period of time. When you see some of the good teams play now it makes you wonder how long is it going to take to rebuild this thing. The Sox are a big part of summers, but not versions like the 2012 Sox.

[Bellhorn04]

This month of September is going to be something to behold. Four more games on the west coast and after that we play the Yankees, Orioles, Rays and Jays. Wow. We might do well to win 5 or 6 games.

 

The 2012 team was like a house in bad shape, and we were talking about what renovations needed to be done, when somebody slipped into the basement with a gas can and matches and set fire to it. Now we can't do anything but watch it burn to the ground.

[a700hitter]

This month of September is going to be something to behold. Four more games on the west coast and after that we play the Yankees, Orioles, Rays and Jays. Wow. We might do well to win 5 or 6 games.

 

The 2012 team was like a house in bad shape, and we were talking about what renovations needed to be done, when somebody slipped into the basement with a gas can and matches and set fire to it. Now we can't do anything but watch it burn to the ground.

There is no hope that this team will be interesting as a spoiler.

[iortiz]

E1, for as long as you have known me, you have always been wrong about me. You still don't get me and you project onto me. I wasn't negative in 2007 or 2008. In 2009, people were worried in August that Texas and Tampa would catch us for the Wild Card. I was confident and told people that Texas and Tampa would fold, and they did. Last year, I was thrilled about our prospects going into the season, and I was completely baffled by their slow start. When late August and early September came I could see things were going badly and that they were headed for a collapse. Was I just being negative and I got lucky that time as well?

 

Negative? No, negative to that. Critical? Yes, but you can't honestly analyze something without being critical. If an analysis points out only strengths and good things, it's not worth anything. People who analyze like that are just pom pom wavers. Is that how I should characterize you, E1-- as a pom pom waver? I have probably logged more hours of watching baseball than many posters have been alive on this forum. When I say someone stinks, they generally stink. If I say that we don't have enough pitching, we probably don't. That's not negative. That's a rationale assessment. What's positive is that no matter how bad the Sox are I always watch them with the hope that they will win.

 

You say that "[t]his year it worked out for {me}". That's a really odd statement. You may enjoy them losing because it will give them a better draft choice. I am not enjoying this one bit. The losing has affected my mood this summer, and last September I had a headache every night starting at 5 pm and it got worse as the night wore on. I can watch and root and hope for my team even when I know rationally that they are not good. That's positive.

 

You say that "it wasn't unreasonable to think this team would be much better than it is." Well, yeah duh. I have repeatedly posted that they are far worse than I had expected them to be. I never expected them to be one of the worst teams in baseball. I never expected the wheels to come off so early, but I did know that they would not be a strong contender and that the division was probably out of reach. The second wild card was a possibility as far as I was concerned, but not the division. We came north with thin starting pitching and a closer that had never closed and no good back of the bullpen options. The injuries did not kill this team. Lousy pitching killed this team. The injury that impacted us most was the injury to bailey, and was anyone really surprised that he got injured? Strong teams are not built like that. People who analyzed the team critically could see what the pom pom wavers like yourself could not see.

 

Excellent retrospective Ted.

 

How are you my friend? I've been little busy but the good thing about this, is that my activities have not allowed me to watch this horrible/forgettable season. You and I said that this team had little room for mistakes since how this team was built if underperformance/injuries show up. They showed up, no surprise here. Nevertheless, the impact/consequences were out proportion to the point that this team, as you said, is one of the worst teams in the majors not only in numbers but to watch. Isn't fun anymore.

 

We went from to be a mediocre team to be a joke/blank check team. The lack of management in this team has been horrible in every possible way and has been my main concern the last 4 years. Somehow some people defended the FO despite the sings were there. It's time to sell the team or clean up the house, and when I say clean up the house , I mean LL, BC, BV and the coaching & medical staff have to go.

 

Maybe in 2013, the rebuilding mode will continue... we'll see.

[SCM33]

And in terms of crappiness of the fan base, it goes:

Pats

Sox

Anyone that has gone to BC

Celtics

Bruins

 

I think C's and B's fans aren't overly annoying. C's can be bandwagony and B's fans were endearingly miserable for decades.

 

Yeah, Pats fans suck sometimes. Gillette is way too quiet......but then again, Id rather quiet than everyone singing Sweet Caroline when the Sox are losing 10-2.

[a700hitter]

Excellent retrospective Ted.

 

How are you my friend? I've been little busy but the good thing about this, is that my activities have not allowed me to watch this horrible/forgettable season. You and I said that this team had little room for mistakes since how this team was built if underperformance/injuries show up. They showed up, no surprise here. Nevertheless, the impact/consequences were out proportion to the point that this team, as you said, is one of the worst teams in the majors not only in numbers but to watch. Isn't fun anymore.

 

We went from to be a mediocre team to be a joke/blank check team. The lack of management in this team has been horrible in every possible way and has been my main concern the last 4 years. Somehow some people defended the FO despite the sings were there. It's time to sell the team or clean up the house, and when I say clean up the house , I mean LL, BC, BV and the coaching & medical staff have to go.

 

Maybe in 2013, the rebuilding mode will continue... we'll see.

I have been well, mi compadre. I hope things are going well for you. Our team sucks so bad that I think that they have a very good chance of finishing with a record worse than anything they have done in 45 years. Continuing the Theo regime with Cherington has been a disaster. They have cleared their payroll. Now, they need a whole new FO team to rebuild the on-field product.

[a700hitter]

http://www.talksox.com/forum/game-thread-forum/16943-8-27-vote-pedro-2.html#post800023

 

^ More evidence of why I am the King of TalkSox.

[Spitball]

http://www.talksox.com/forum/game-thread-forum/16943-8-27-vote-pedro-2.html#post800023

 

^ More evidence of why I am the King of TalkSox.

 

I have looked at this link with a microscope and can't find the evidence. What am I missing?

[a700hitter]

I have looked at this link with a microscope and can't find the evidence. What am I missing?

Maybe I linked to the wrong thing.:dunno: MannyHOF24 predicted that we would go on a 29-5 run. In response to that prediction, I posted that the Sox would reward his loyalty and hope by going on a 6 game losing streak.

[Spitball]

Maybe I linked to the wrong thing.:dunno: MannyHOF24 predicted that we would go on a 29-5 run. In response to that prediction, I posted that the Sox would reward his loyalty and hope by going on a 6 game losing streak.

 

Ahhh! That explains things. The link you posted just proved you were not a good link poster.

[a700hitter]

Ahhh! That explains things. The link you posted just proved you were not a good link poster.

[Taz]

It is a weird time and things are pretty tough for the Nation, but it is getting through these tough times that makes the good times all the sweeter. I'm not about to cast my Sox cap in the trash just because things aren't all peachy.

 

Not sure how many of you are familiar with football (soccer, that is), much less Celtic FC, but there is a song that we sing in times such as this... permit me if I may to slightly tailor...

 

For we are 'Red Sox' supporters

- faithful, through and through

and over and over - we will follow you

[pedroias laser]

So weird looking forward to football already. But i'm a sox fan always will be minus the ******** going on.

[Behindenemylines]

True Sox fans are already looking forward to next season. I have seen the World Series loss in 1975, the loss to $panks in 1978, the loss to Mets in 1986 (Buckner play haunted me until 2004), the few playoff losses in the 90s, and the 2003 loss to the $panks. It made 2004 so much sweeter. The air smelled cleaner, the water tasted better, as did the food. 2007 was icing on the cake. I think we got spoiled and the FO got off track. Keep the faith and we can only go up from here. When do pitchers and catchers report?

[Soupy1957]

I have been a long time Red Sox fan and after last season and this season it has been quite embarrassing. First off, do you miss Terry yet? I wasn’t the biggest fan of him skipping out on small ball every now and then, but being fired the way he was, was ridiculous.........

 

I've yet to be convinced that Franconia WAS in fact "fired." Based on what "I" had heard, he made his own choice to leave.

 

Whether Terry would have been able to make a positive contribution to the ball club in 2012 was what was in question. That's dependant on the players (IMHO).

 

-Soupy1957

[jung]

Tito was let go. He played along with the mutual separation story but he was gritting his teeth the whole way and has not offered argument when he has been confronted with the "well you were really let go" view since then.

[RedSoxNC84]

I really think Tito was fired, I really doubt that he would just up and decide to leave the team, I think he cared too much.

 

Sure he wasn't the best manager, but he had become a bit of a staple associated with the team.. After awhile it was hard to think of the Sox without thinking of Terry.

[Orange Juiced]

On August 31, 2011, the Red Sox were at 83-52 (.615), on pace for 100 wins, with a one and a half-game lead on the Yankees for the AL East division, and 9 games up in the Wild Card race (which we weren't even thinking about b/c they had that sewn up and they were making a push for the #1 seed in the AL).

 

Since that moment, the Red Sox have gone 69-94 (.423). Incredibly, they missed the playoffs last year and this year it looks like they'll finish last in the division, with one of the worst 3 records in the league (along with Cleveland and Minnesota). Right now the race for last in the league looks like this:

 

Min 55-79 --

Cle 57-78 1.5

Tor 60-74 5.0

Bos 62-74 6.0

 

The Sox wrap up the season with two more in Seattle (where they haven't won all year), and then have 6 against Toronto, 6 against New York, 6 against Tampa Bay, and 6 against Baltimore. So there are no "easy" games left on the schedule. I could easily see them going 6-20 in their last 26, which probably will vault them past all those teams into the 14th spot in the American League standings.

 

So all this to say: I'm extremely excited that they have a very real chance at a top 5 pick in next year's MLB draft, so perhaps they can land an absolute stud. That would be nice.

 

But holy crap what a season.

[SoxSport]

On August 31, 2011, the Red Sox were at 83-52 (.615), on pace for 100 wins, with a one and a half-game lead on the Yankees for the AL East division, and 9 games up in the Wild Card race (which we weren't even thinking about b/c they had that sewn up and they were making a push for the #1 seed in the AL).

 

 

So, what happened? How did this team collapse? I still haven't heard an explanation.

[jung]

As for 2011, to be honest SoxSport I think the Sox were a house of cards. As I recall, the Yanks were a game and a half behind and coming on and I think the Sox finally found themselves staring into the abyss with no means to rally themselves. They crumbled. They did not remember June of 2011 choosing instead to remember April. They decided that April was who they really were, not June and they were right in that regard.

 

While we did not know it at the time, they had already given up on their 2011 Manager, Tito and there wasn't a one of them ready to take up the slack, take up the mantle of leadership and bring them home. As I have often said, Pedey is not in the Mo Vaughn mold of a leader. He is miscast in that role which is not his fault. He never asked for the job and frankly nobody has been there to fill that void. They gave up on their Manager without having the means to supplement what he provided in terms of team leadership.

 

However that is only one piece of the puzzle. The starting pitching was a house of cards as well and the trend of falling behind early in games really started late last year not early this year. The everyday players responded to falling behind early late last year the same way they have this year. They lost heart. They did not believe in themselves and began rushing up to the plate to take three quick hacks so they could rush back to the safety of the dugout as fast as their little feet would carry them.

 

The bullpen finally yielded as well to the everyday pressure of overuse and that was the end of that. It got so bad at one point that they could hardly field a ball let alone hit one, their atom's apples dwarfed by their hearts stuck in their collective throats.

 

If you go back to some of my winter posts you will find that I used this same argument in discussions about whether September 2011 was an anomaly. September 2011 was not an anomaly. It was a signpost to what was coming.

 

This is and has been a gutless, spineless, heartless, whiny bitch of a team with guys like Pedey just overwhelmed by the amount of apathy and cowardliness that surrounding them and the complete lack of anything resembling a "team" to rally around. Oh not, not this bunch. These guys turned 25 guys, 25 limos into an art form.

 

But before I heap to much blame on the players themselves lets not forget that it was Management that lost track of what a team looks like, slapping together pieces out of Sabremetrics stats without giving any thought to whether or not the pieces they were slamming together stitched up into a whole. They ended up with a terrific fantasy baseball team that could not play a lick together on the field where it actually counts.

[example1]

E1, for as long as you have known me, you have always been wrong about me. You still don't get me and you project onto me. I wasn't negative in 2007 or 2008. In 2009, people were worried in August that Texas and Tampa would catch us for the Wild Card. I was confident and told people that Texas and Tampa would fold, and they did. Last year, I was thrilled about our prospects going into the season, and I was completely baffled by their slow start. When late August and early September came I could see things were going badly and that they were headed for a collapse. Was I just being negative and I got lucky that time as well?

 

Negative? No, negative to that. Critical? Yes, but you can't honestly analyze something without being critical. If an analysis points out only strengths and good things, it's not worth anything. People who analyze like that are just pom pom wavers. Is that how I should characterize you, E1-- as a pom pom waver? I have probably logged more hours of watching baseball than many posters have been alive on this forum. When I say someone stinks, they generally stink. If I say that we don't have enough pitching, we probably don't. That's not negative. That's a rationale assessment. What's positive is that no matter how bad the Sox are I always watch them with the hope that they will win.

 

You say that "[t]his year it worked out for {me}". That's a really odd statement. You may enjoy them losing because it will give them a better draft choice. I am not enjoying this one bit. The losing has affected my mood this summer, and last September I had a headache every night starting at 5 pm and it got worse as the night wore on. I can watch and root and hope for my team even when I know rationally that they are not good. That's positive.

 

You say that "it wasn't unreasonable to think this team would be much better than it is." Well, yeah duh. I have repeatedly posted that they are far worse than I had expected them to be. I never expected them to be one of the worst teams in baseball. I never expected the wheels to come off so early, but I did know that they would not be a strong contender and that the division was probably out of reach. The second wild card was a possibility as far as I was concerned, but not the division. We came north with thin starting pitching and a closer that had never closed and no good back of the bullpen options. The injuries did not kill this team. Lousy pitching killed this team. The injury that impacted us most was the injury to bailey, and was anyone really surprised that he got injured? Strong teams are not built like that. People who analyzed the team critically could see what the pom pom wavers like yourself could not see.

 

What I said about you came off as less flattering than it was intended to. My apologies. You really took that and ran with it. Pom pom waver? Nice.

 

You shouldn't think that I like the fact that they are losing. I said it was a 'silver lining' in a s***** situation that they are headed toward a higher draft pick with each loss. That part was obvious and shouldn't be turned against me. I will always root for them to win first and foremost. I can't even imagine doing otherwise.

 

It sucks that you go through such agony when the team is this bad. I go through that when they are anywhere close to contention, but not at this point. After a few months of grieving and being down, I'm more or less emerging into being able to think ahead again. The first thing I think it "how can this situation be turned into a positive?" and my brain immediately goes to the draft (the game's compensation for sucking, basically). I guarantee any FO worth its salt considers how they will finish for the draft when they are this far out of contention. It's a natural part of the game to be strategizing from any position you are in.

[Orange Juiced]

But before I heap to much blame on the players themselves lets not forget that it was Management that lost track of what a team looks like, slapping together pieces out of Sabremetrics stats without giving any thought to whether or not the pieces they were slamming together stitched up into a whole. They ended up with a terrific fantasy baseball team that could not play a lick together on the field where it actually counts.

 

Actually, with respect to the sabermetrics comment, it appears from all we know now that the sabermetrics part (headed by Bill James) was largely *ignored* over the past couple of years, and it's that part that they'll be trying to get back to.

 

And they did play together very well for most of last year. Just a bad first 14 days and a horrendous last month. The other 4 1/2 months they were by FAR the dominant team in baseball. But man, when they were bad, they were BAD.