Red Sox 2012/2013 Offseason Thread

[Bellhorn04]

You guys are right on the money with this. I can see that there will be lots of arguments this off season that the pitching will be improved with 1 acquisition and some rearranging of the junk. That ain't gonna work. I'll state it up front before the 2012 season ends. Let people call me nuts and argue with me, and when I am proved right, people will make their insulting remarks. Please someone sig this so it will be out there all off season and during the 2013 season. The Sox will have no shot at winning their Division in 2013 if they only acquire 1 starting pitcher in the off season, regardless of who that pitcher is.

 

I'll go you one better. This team is going to suck again next year, guaranteed. There are no intelligent fixes that can rectify our roster for 2013. 2-3 years from now things should be a lot better, if our noble leaders do the right things.

[SoxSport]

Bobby V is just going through the motions at this point. I think they are supporting Cherington, because he is an obedient puppy.

 

Yeah--he was told not to spend any money pre-season--and he, of course, didn't. So he is being rewarded for being a good soldier. But now that they have money again to spend, it looks like he is in over his head for what needs to be done. They do need a VP at Epstein's old level to take charge of the team and eliminate the turf wars. I do think the player resentment towards V stems from his lack of FO support. They think he has no authority. That will have to change with a new manager. And the turf wars so evident with the FO, the trainer, etc. will have to be eliminated. That can only be done from above.

 

I've suggested John Hart as an excellent VP choice. Been there, done that. I read that LaRussa was in town recently, and some writer wondered if he would want to be manager. Does anyone think any outsider would want to be manager of this team after Valentine's experience? If they hire an insider like Bogar, it will just be a copout. As for LaRussa, he might consider the VP job--nothing lower.

[Elktonnick]

Yeah--he was told not to spend any money pre-season--and he, of course, didn't. So he is being rewarded for being a good soldier. But now that they have money again to spend, it looks like he is in over his head for what needs to be done. They do need a VP at Epstein's old level to take charge of the team and eliminate the turf wars. I do think the player resentment towards V stems from his lack of FO support. They think he has no authority. That will have to change with a new manager. And the turf wars so evident with the FO, the trainer, etc. will have to be eliminated. That can only be done from above.

 

I've suggested John Hart as an excellent VP choice. Been there, done that. I read that LaRussa was in town recently, and some writer wondered if he would want to be manager. Does anyone think any outsider would want to be manager of this team after Valentine's experience? If they hire an insider like Bogar, it will just be a copout. As for LaRussa, he might consider the VP job--nothing lower.

 

As for manager let me put a word in for Ryan Sandberg, Baseball America's minor league manager of the year. BTW since BV will still have a year on his contract, he is a better judge of talent than Cherries; I'd kieep him as a special ass't to Lucchino (who is unlikely to be going anywhere) I do agree thnough they need an experienced Chief of Baseball operations above Cherrington.

[SCM33]

He's a young lefty who throws hard and strikes guys out. You're goddamn right he's a solid option moving forward. The kid crapped out around the Allstar break and "tired" is a viable argument considering he's dealt with injuries in the past and this is his first extended stretch in the majors.

 

I don't think there's a person here aside from you who doesn't want Felix as a part of our future.

 

Where did I make that statement? I said that I thought Morales was better. If you are going to have a debate with me, at least make the debate about something I said.

[SoxSport]

Silverman has just tweeted that Henry and Cherington have flown to Seattle. Looks like they are freeing Bobby V from jail--finally.

[SoxSport]

As for manager let me put a word in for Ryan Sandberg, Baseball America's minor league manager of the year. BTW since BV will still have a year on his contract, he is a better judge of talent than Cherries; I'd kieep him as a special ass't to Lucchino (who is unlikely to be going anywhere) I do agree thnough they need an experienced Chief of Baseball operations above Cherrington.

 

Well, Bobby is about to be relieved of his misery. Looks like he's managed his last game in Boston. I think he'll be replaced by Bogar--though I haven't heard. They'll want somebody inside for the rest of the season. Maybe they'll hire Mills on the spot. You don't know. That manager in Pawtucket is very good too--knows all the prospects.

 

What they really need is to replace Epstein at his VP level with a senior guy--an outside guy with clout. John Hart would be good. The fact that Henry has to fly out to Seattle to relieve Bobby tells you something about the hole in management they have. The absence of Lucchino is very conspicuous. Note the media has neglected to raise the issue of a replacement at Epstein's old VP level. Seems that's what was needed all along. Cherington is a notch down, and the media has failed to point this out.

[SCM33]

Well, Bobby is about to be relieved of his misery. Looks like he's managed his last game in Boston. I think he'll be replaced by Bogar--though I haven't heard. They'll want somebody inside for the rest of the season. Maybe they'll hire Mills on the spot. You don't know. That manager in Pawtucket is very good too--knows all the prospects.

 

What they really need is to replace Epstein at his VP level with a senior guy--an outside guy with clout. John Hart would be good. The fact that Henry has to fly out to Seattle to relieve Bobby tells you something about the hole in management they have. The absence of Lucchino is very conspicuous. Note the media has neglected to raise the issue of a replacement at Epstein's old VP level. Seems that's what was needed all along. Cherington is a notch down, and the media has failed to point this out.

 

Interesting observations.

[SoxSport]

The story now , from Bradford of WEEI, is the Seattle trip is unrelated to BV. Cherington had a planned trip there. And Henry is going to a meeting there.

 

Sounds a bit fishy to me. We'll see.

[a700hitter]

The story now , from Bradford of WEEI, is the Seattle trip is unrelated to BV. Cherington had a planned trip there. And Henry is going to a meeting there.

 

Sounds a bit fishy to me. We'll see.

 

Some of Bobby V's almost despondent comments and his disengaged attitude in the last week make it seem that he is begging to be fired. However, I would still be surprised if they fire him before the end of the season. This team's s***** pitching and lack of any offensive punch leaves it with no hope of anything other than being a doormat in September. I don't think they will put someone in the job on an interim basis to steer this sinking ship into port. They would just be setting up someone for defeat.

[example1]

I agree a700, unless V does something that really embarrasses the club he will probably make it to the end of the season. Again, they might as well lose at this point. They have more to gain by moving up the draft.

 

They are currently tied for 9th worst record in baseball. That would give them the 9th or 10th pick. Who were previous 9th/10th picks?

 

2003: John Danks/Ian Stewart

2004: Chris Nelson/Thomas Diamond (Jared Weaver and Billy Butler were still on the board though)

2005: Mike Pelfrey/Cameron Maybin (Andrew McCutchen went 11th)

2006: Billy Rowell/Tim Lincecum (Max Scherzer went 11th)

2007: Jarrod Parker/Madison Bumgarner

2008: Aaron Crow/Jason Castro

2009: Jacob Turner/Drew Storen

2010: Karsten Whiton/Michael Choice (Yasmani Grandal and Chris Sale went 12 and 13th)

2011: Javier Baez/Corey Spangenberg

2012: Andrew Heaney/David Dahl

 

The point is that there is almost always significant talent available at one of those spots if a team knows what to look for.

 

It's a small point of optimism, but it would be good reason to leave Valentine in. He's become very adept at not winning in 2012.

[SoxSport]

Latest from Silverman this morning:

 

http://bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view.bg?articleid=1061157571&position=0

 

Henry and Cherington are in Seattle, and we''ll see what happens. LL is noncommittal about V's future. Clearly, it's a matter of when he will be replaced.

 

Henry says they strayed from their core values the last several years, and Bill James, who went out of favor(!), has been brought back to help put a team together. Hard to see how Henry allowed a major philosophical change by Epstein et al. Theo's ego just got the better of him. Too much hubris in that organization. You could see it in the way Tito managed the last few years. They were playing for the wild card, and figured they could get it in September. And then all those "fielder's indifference" stolen bases got to be a joke. Cost them a few games. And even recently, sitting Crawford for no good f**king reason in the middle of a Yankee series. A**holes.

 

Henry loves Cherington. That could be his downfall. Ben represents the past.

 

Amazing this is the worst run organization in Baseball at this point, and Henry let it happen.

[jung]

Honestly none of the stuff that comes out of Upper Management sounds like anything but ******** these days. They have not spoken with one voice for God only knows how long now and just about everything sounds like an excuse. Bill James "fell out of favor" for three years? So what are you telling me here? Did you allow this to go on for three years or did you just not know? Frankly the big money signings have gone to guys that had great numbers for the most part. The issue has been do they mesh as a team not whether they have had great numbers individually. Is this a left handed way of pointing to the amount of leverage that LL has apparently wielded over Baseball Operations for years now? You would have probably said, this makes a great fantasy baseball team but it has not blended well on the field where the game is actually played.

 

I don't think they any longer have the means to build a baseball team and in truth may really not have fed enough of that skill set into Baseball Operations since Dan Douchette left. It takes more than a computer software program and a guy just looking to make the biggest PR splash he can with every signing.

[Bellhorn04]

Latest from Silverman this morning:

 

http://bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view.bg?articleid=1061157571&position=0

 

Henry and Cherington are in Seattle, and we''ll see what happens. LL is noncommittal about V's future. Clearly, it's a matter of when he will be replaced.

 

Henry says they strayed from their core values the last several years, and Bill James, who went out of favor(!), has been brought back to help put a team together. Hard to see how Henry allowed a major philosophical change by Epstein et al. Theo's ego just got the better of him. Too much hubris in that organization. You could see it in the way Tito managed the last few years. They were playing for the wild card, and figured they could get it in September. And then all those "fielder's indifference" stolen bases got to be a joke. Cost them a few games. And even recently, sitting Crawford for no good f**king reason in the middle of a Yankee series. A**holes.

 

Henry loves Cherington. That could be his downfall. Ben represents the past.

 

Amazing this is the worst run organization in Baseball at this point, and Henry let it happen.

 

Personally I think the 'philosophical change' had a lot to do with a loss of patience and probably a perceived lack of patience on the part of the fanbase. After we got swept out in 2009 Sox fans were not a happy group. We won it all in 2007, which was great, but then we lost to the Rays in 2008 in a series everybody felt we should have won. Then 3 and out in 2009. It seemed like we were going downhill fast. Add to that the fact that the farm system had suddenly gone bone dry on MLB-ready players. What do you in that situation? When you're a rich team it's pretty tempting to just reach into the wallet for expensive fixes. You want to keep the fans happy because you want to keep that sellout streak going and keep the money pumping into the tills.

[SoxSport]

I think the front office has to be the focal point for what happened. Tito was basically a front office guy, and they apparently changed their "philosophy."

 

Recall that they lost two top FO guys, Hoyer and Byrnes, about that time. They were probably the best of the lot, since they went to other teams as GMs. That left Epstein in charge of the rest, including Baird and Cherington.

 

Unfortunately, the media doesn't talk about the FO much, so we don't know who was doing what. Now Henry says they changed philosophy and let James go. All this happened without the media saying a word about it.

 

There is an awful lot more to this decline than chicken and beer.

[Behindenemylines]

The good thing about the events since last September is that this team has hit rock bottom. The Sox can only get better. Two positive that they have are that they were able to get rid of their three largest contracts and they have the financial means to help with the rebuild. They need to set a smart plan for the rebuild and stick to it. I believe to have long term success you minor league system has to be turning out 3 or 4 major league ready players a year. You then use $$$$$ wisely to fill in the holes. You remember a few years back they would set values on players and if those players wanted more they would let them walk. They have to get back to that. I think Ellsbury will be the first test case. He has been a good player when healthy, but throw out 2011 and that is what he has been, a good player. If Boros ask for the moon and the moon is above what the Sox think he is worth then trade him. The paying guys above their value is what caused the waste of $$$$$$.

[example1]

Honestly none of the stuff that comes out of Upper Management sounds like anything but ******** these days. They have not spoken with one voice for God only knows how long now and just about everything sounds like an excuse. Bill James "fell out of favor" for three years? So what are you telling me here? Did you allow this to go on for three years or did you just not know? Frankly the big money signings have gone to guys that had great numbers for the most part. The issue has been do they mesh as a team not whether they have had great numbers individually. Is this a left handed way of pointing to the amount of leverage that LL has apparently wielded over Baseball Operations for years now? You would have probably said, this makes a great fantasy baseball team but it has not blended well on the field where the game is actually played.

 

I don't think they any longer have the means to build a baseball team and in truth may really not have fed enough of that skill set into Baseball Operations since Dan Douchette left. It takes more than a computer software program and a guy just looking to make the biggest PR splash he can with every signing.

 

I was thinking today that the Sox need to be weary of who they bring on, both for players and coach/manager. There's such a tendency to take someone who is finding success on a successful team, and assume that their success will transfer. It's easy to watch Josh Hamilton hitting bombs when the team is blowing opponents out of the water and think "what if?". I think the same thing happened with Crawford.

 

When there's a winning culture it is much easier to bring people in who will assimilate. When you are trying to build a winning culture you need to have a few players who set the culture and champion it. I'm not sure who those players are for the Sox right now. They might not have anyone who can do it right now. Pedroia is the strongest candidate but he needs some impressionable and moldable players around him. Not a bunch of douchebags.

[example1]

The good thing about the events since last September is that this team has hit rock bottom. The Sox can only get better. Two positive that they have are that they were able to get rid of their three largest contracts and they have the financial means to help with the rebuild. They need to set a smart plan for the rebuild and stick to it. I believe to have long term success you minor league system has to be turning out 3 or 4 major league ready players a year. You then use $$$$$ wisely to fill in the holes. You remember a few years back they would set values on players and if those players wanted more they would let them walk. They have to get back to that. I think Ellsbury will be the first test case. He has been a good player when healthy, but throw out 2011 and that is what he has been, a good player. If Boros ask for the moon and the moon is above what the Sox think he is worth then trade him. The paying guys above their value is what caused the waste of $$$$$$.

 

They don't just need the farm system to produce 3 or 4 good players a year. They need it to give them a legitimate star or two who quickly take on huge leadership roles with the team. That's what Longoria did in TB and he became the rock that team is built around, even as they switch parts around left and right.

 

Hopefully Middlebrooks is already thinking about this being his team, because the next generation of Sox success will likely center around guys like him.

[Behindenemylines]

I agree with bringing in players that will help rebuild the winning attitude. The Sox have the added burden of also finding players that want the challenge of playing in Boston. We have seen good players come to Boston and not be able to take the heat. Pedroia is the kind of piece that is needed to help the rebuild. He has produced in Boston and will help rebuild that winning attitude.

[Palodios]

I was thinking today that the Sox need to be weary of who they bring on, both for players and coach/manager. There's such a tendency to take someone who is finding success on a successful team, and assume that their success will transfer. It's easy to watch Josh Hamilton hitting bombs when the team is blowing opponents out of the water and think "what if?". I think the same thing happened with Crawford.

 

In all fairness, Crawford was on a very poor offensive team, and it seemed almost if he, Longoria, and to a lessor extent Pena carried the team on their backs.

 

That being said, I'm a big advocate of bringing in a bunch of guys on one/two year contracts, and simply re-signing them if they fit.

[jung]

I heard something this morning on radio that just sparked some interest. One of the talking heads commented that the Sox not only needed a 1 for the rotation but needed one of the very upper echelon 1's in baseball. There are only maybe five guys at the very top that would fit that bill. Sure we would like to land one. However it that really necessary presuming that Buch continues as he has here in the second half, we have Lester who should at least return to some sort of form and may actually benefit if we just remove the designation of 1 or 1a from him. We have Lackey, an unknown at this point and guys that should be able to round out the back end.

 

It sounds to me like a rotation that absolutely needs a 1 but does not necessarily have to empty the tank for one of the top five guys in baseball. We may even need a 2 but definitely need a 1.

[Rdsxmbnt]

I heard something this morning on radio that just sparked some interest. One of the talking heads commented that the Sox not only needed a 1 for the rotation but needed one of the very upper echelon 1's in baseball. There are only maybe five guys at the very top that would fit that bill. Sure we would like to land one. However it that really necessary presuming that Buch continues as he has here in the second half, we have Lester who should at least return to some sort of form and may actually benefit if we just remove the designation of 1 or 1a from him. We have Lackey, an unknown at this point and guys that should be able to round out the back end.

 

It sounds to me like a rotation that absolutely needs a 1 but does not necessarily have to empty the tank for one of the top five guys in baseball. We may even need a 2 but definitely need a 1.

 

Everyone wants a top 5 SP but you don't NEED one. Who is the Texas ace? Who is the Oakland ace? Baltimore? Atlanta? St Louis?

 

The point is you don't need a brand name Sabathia/Strasburg/Felix/Price/Verlander/Weaver to be a good team. You need DEPTH and that depth needs to be good enough to keep your team in baseball games. With the Red Sox offense (pre trade) and 5 SP that all put up 4.00 ERAs the team would have been top 5 in baseball.

 

Again five #2/#3 type SP are much better than a standard 1-2-3-4-5 group led by a king felix.

 

If the Red Sox came out with a rotation of Lester/Buchholz/Garza/Josh Johnson/Lackey, I think theyd be in a lot better shape then if they dealt Lester+ to get a king felix and be left with Felix/Buchholz/Doubront/Morales/Lackey

[jacksonianmarch]

I think, when healthy, Josh Johnson is one of those top pitchers you are talking about.

[jung]

I don't think they need one of the top 5 of the 1's in baseball. But I don't want to see them go in with a bunch of potential 2's again. Seen to much of how that works out or doesn't.

 

I think they need a legit 1 because:

- that guy becomes your stopper. Without a stopper 4 game losing streaks can very quickly turn into 7 and 8 game losing streaks even if the rotation is pitching reasonably well

- that guy becomes the guy that your young pitchers look to for direction, for an understanding for how to prepare, both mentally and physically.

 

We have often in the last couple years blamed preparation for some of the problems in the rotation and I believe that their preparation has been sorely lacking. While the pitching coach can help with that, there is simply nothing as effective as having a guy at the top of the rotation that the other pitchers respect and acknowledge as the 1 without question that knows how to prepare. In fact I think part of Lester's problems have been a lack of leadership in the rotation. He himself was not prepared to be a 1 and nobody else was in a position to handle that responsibility either.

 

That said, I would not do something stupid to get one this year because this team has got so many problems that I would think a one year turn to be a miracle. I will take miracles if they happen but you cannot plan around a miracle. Finally I think people have to acknowledge that the Sox either did not plan at all this season or planed unrealistically for a miracle.

 

For example it would have been miraculous for the rotation to have gotten through this season successfully as configured...an absolute miracle. Not only were there serious question marks within 1,2 and 3 in the rotation, the most critical spots but there was NO QUESTION that 4 and 5 were not going to get through the season because of their innings caps if nothing else. The Sox had no realistic plan for that. The "plan" was Cook and dice. Well that was no plan at all.

 

Banking on a miracle with a $189M payroll is just criminal. However I am not interested in PR motivated personnel moves or quick fixes that are not fixes at all. If they can't get their guy this year, that is just the way it goes. Like I said earlier there is so much to fix here that realistically this is going to take more than one year anyway.

[a700hitter]

Personally I think the 'philosophical change' had a lot to do with a loss of patience and probably a perceived lack of patience on the part of the fanbase. After we got swept out in 2009 Sox fans were not a happy group. We won it all in 2007, which was great, but then we lost to the Rays in 2008 in a series everybody felt we should have won. Then 3 and out in 2009. It seemed like we were going downhill fast. Add to that the fact that the farm system had suddenly gone bone dry on MLB-ready players. What do you in that situation? When you're a rich team it's pretty tempting to just reach into the wallet for expensive fixes. You want to keep the fans happy because you want to keep that sellout streak going and keep the money pumping into the tills.

A perceived impatience on the part of the fanbase that continued to fill Fenway every game for the next 3 years and fill the park in Ft. Myers too? The fanbase was lapping up everything the FO was pimping-- grass seed, pieces of the tarpaulin and bricks. Please, their incompetence had nothing to do with the impatience of the fanbase. Money continued to fly out of the fans' pockets at record levels.

[Bellhorn04]

A perceived impatience on the part of the fanbase that continued to fill Fenway every game for the next 3 years and fill the park in Ft. Myers too? The fanbase was lapping up everything the FO was pimping-- grass seed, pieces of the tarpaulin and bricks. Please, their incompetence had nothing to do with the impatience of the fanbase. Money continued to fly out of the fans' pockets at record levels.

 

But if the FO didn't make any big moves after 2010, if they didn't get Gonzalez and Crawford, if they preached patience instead, do you think the fans were going to buy that? My recollection is that people were generally unhappy and restless and thought we needed to add some big pieces after not winning a playoff game in 2 years.

[RedSoxNC84]

I don't care if the sox go out and spend all the money they just freed up on contracts.. As long as it's 1-2 year contracts and nothing long term at all.

[a700hitter]

But if the FO didn't make any big moves after 2010, if they didn't get Gonzalez and Crawford, if they preached patience instead, do you think the fans were going to buy that? My recollection is that people were generally unhappy and restless and thought we needed to add some big pieces after not winning a playoff game in 2 years.

Bringing fans into the discussion of stupid FO moves is just abhorrent to me. The FO made stupid moves, because they made stupid moves possibly indicating that they are stupid people. The stupidity of the moves had nothing to do with fan pressure.

[DocHolliday]

Hopefully Middlebrooks is already thinking about this being his team, because the next generation of Sox success will likely center around guys like him.

 

This is the measure they should evaluate ALL members of the organization for next year and beyond. 2007 was 5 seasons ago and Ortiz is the lone member left from 2004 - which was nearly a decade ago. This organization loves to tout their resume around. And it's been 4 seasons since they won a playoff game, 3 seasons since they were swept out of the playoffs.

 

If they are serious about trying to reconnect with the fans, we will see them making significant progress this offseason to building a team that can go on another long run of success. Let's face it - the landscape around baseball is much different than it was in 2007. The overall competitiveness of both leagues, but particularly the AL, is much greater than it was 5 years ago. Back then, the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, and a team from the central made the playoffs each season. This could be the 4th season in a row where there is a different group of teams representing the AL.

 

They certainly have their work cut out for them. It would be a complete mistake if they wait until December 1 to hire their manager again. The issues are simply too large and too numbered to waste 1 month of the offseason figuring out their LT organization structure when they could be taking steps to do that now when they have until the end of October to fix organizational issues before the offseason starts.

[a700hitter]

They don't just need the farm system to produce 3 or 4 good players a year. They need it to give them a legitimate star or two who quickly take on huge leadership roles with the team. That's what Longoria did in TB and he became the rock that team is built around, even as they switch parts around left and right.

 

Hopefully Middlebrooks is already thinking about this being his team, because the next generation of Sox success will likely center around guys like him.

The last generation of Sox success was centered around a lot of guys that guys that came from outside the organization like Manny, Ortiz, Beckett, Schilling, Pedro, Damon, Lowell, Varitek, and Bill Mueller.

[Bellhorn04]

Bringing fans into the discussion of stupid FO moves is just abhorrent to me. The FO made stupid moves, because they made stupid moves possibly indicating that they are stupid people. The stupidity of the moves had nothing to do with fan pressure.

 

Why is it abhorrent? A major league baseball team is an entertainment entity at least as much as it is a sports entity. The audience's needs and expectations are taken into consideration. Red Sox fans were sending a message that they weren't prepared to be patient. When Epstein uttered the words 'bridge year', the general reaction was 'f*** bridge years, this is the Red Sox and we want to go after another title right now.'

 

I'm not trying to defend any of it. It has been a catastrophe. But I think we need to learn some lessons from it.