What's next for Daniel Bard?

[SoxSport]

Tito was good with plenty of young players.

 

except for Meredith.

[Bellhorn04]

except for Meredith.

 

As I recall Tito expressed some regret about Meredith. I think the Sox bullpen was really short-handed for that game and Tito had to plead with Epstein to bring up a reliever. He said later he wished he hadn't rushed Meredith into that situation.

[Dojji]

That sounds like what it was. It was a bad deal for him' date=' and he never recovered until he was traded. I don't think Tito was very good with young players.[/quote']

 

If he couldn't recover from that, it would have said a lot more about Meredith than it ever could have about Tito. Meredith was hardly the first kid in all of MLB to be given that kind of role in a big game and blow it. Certainly he wasn't the first underexperienced rookie to get lit up badly. If he can't rise past that he's not a big leaguer.

[SoxSport]

If he couldn't recover from that' date=' it would have said a lot more about Meredith than it ever could have about Tito. Meredith was hardly the first kid in all of MLB to be given that kind of role in a big game and blow it. Certainly he wasn't the first underexperienced rookie to get lit up badly. If he can't rise past that he's not a big leaguer.[/quote']

 

You got to be careful about messing up a young player's confidence. That's why they bat these guys way down the lineup when they first come up. Sometimes, just the move up the the next level affects their confidence, and it takes time for them to adjust. In some cases, they don't need to adjust at all. Look at Middlebrook (though they say he's done an adjustment or two to his hitting, to stay hot).

[jacksonianmarch]

Bard has had 3 straight abysmal relief appearances in Pawtucket. Put him into the mental f*** category

[seabeachfred]

Bard has had 3 straight abysmal relief appearances in Pawtucket. Put him into the mental f*** category

 

He's mentally f***ED Jacko. The guy is finished. Anyone who holds out hope he is coming back is whistling past the graveyard. Pukington had his fingerprints all over this miserable experiment with BarF as a starter---which in my opinion he was not qualified to make such a move and BarF was not qualified from experience of being a starter. Now the guy seemed ruined beyond hope. Maybe I'll be proven wrong but this looks like one tragedy that's unfolding and one good y oung pitcher who will be destroyed because of two bad decisions---one by the GM, the other by the pitcher himself who wanted to be a starter but didn't have the make-up for it.

 

As Clint Eastwood (Dirty Harry) said in the 1973 movie, Magnum Force, A MAN HAS TO KNOW HIS LIMITATIONS.

[Cocos Disciples]

Pukington had his fingerprints all over this miserable experiment with BarF as a starter

 

Two in one sentence! Woo!

 

And hey, as much as armchair psychologist is a great role, what gives you the knowledge to say what's in his head?

[seabeachfred]

Two in one sentence! Woo!

 

And hey, as much as armchair psychologist is a great role, what gives you the knowledge to say what's in his head?

 

Well since you asked I'll be happy to tell you. How about over 30 years of managing and coaching baseball teams. How about a half-dozen years doing voluntary scouting for some of my friends in that profession. The talent level may be different but what motivates or tears down players on all levels is what goes on in their heads. Ever heard of the term HEAD CASE? Believe me, what sidetracks high school, college and ex pro players, all of whom I coached at one time or another, is not only physical problems but mental ones, and they may be more damaging to a player that a physical ailment, wrong mechanics either on the mound or at bat, or just a lack of will.

 

Bard shows all the signs of a player undergoing what amounts to a mental and physical collapse. If you played a lot of baseball think of the times when you couldn't put the ball where you wanted and got lit up--if you were a pitcher. Or couldn't seem to get going at the plate. In football you could take out your frustrations by hitting someone. In baseball there is no such recourse.

 

I hoped I answered your question.....and for the record Coco I really hope Bard gets it together. I just afraid we may have lost him.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Well since you asked I'll be happy to tell you. How about over 30 years of managing and coaching baseball teams. How about a half-dozen years doing voluntary scouting for some of my friends in that profession. The talent level may be different but what motivates or tears down players on all levels is what goes on in their heads. Ever heard of the term HEAD CASE? Believe me' date=' what sidetracks high school, college and ex pro players[/b'], all of whom I coached at one time or another, is not only physical problems but mental ones, and they may be more damaging to a player that a physical ailment, wrong mechanics either on the mound or at bat, or just a lack of will.

 

Bard shows all the signs of a player undergoing what amounts to a mental and physical collapse. If you played a lot of baseball think of the times when you couldn't put the ball where you wanted and got lit up--if you were a pitcher. Or couldn't seem to get going at the plate. In football you could take out your frustrations by hitting someone. In baseball there is no such recourse.

 

I hoped I answered your question.....and for the record Coco I really hope Bard gets it together. I just afraid we may have lost him.

 

 

Yeah, just the other day I was watching an interview where Albert Pujols was talking about how difficult it is to focus on baseball while dealing with an abusive stepfather and keeping his grades up for college applications. Seriously, do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

 

Coaching anyone who is not an MLB player gives you as much experience and right to psychoanalyze pros as I have. That is to say none.

 

I have a 'half dozen' years of experience in a few things, notably working in and managing chain restaurants. (I was a GM at a Blimpies for a little over a year and a half and have been a Shift Manager at several other places over the years), but I wouldn't begin to tell someone else who has been doing the job on the highest available level, say, the manager of an exclusive Los Angeles restaurant, what he was doing wrong, and I certainly wouldn't do it to someone doing the job on the highest level by assuring people around me that I know exactly what their problem is. Your experience is great, glad you got to work with baseball. But someone who spent 30 years coaching high school and college baseball (obviously not elite colleges, or I'm sure we'd hear it from you. Community College? Were any of the teams you coached in the NCAA?) has zero of the necessary credentials to tell us that they know exactly what is going on inside a player or managers head, or how to fix it. Psychiatry and psychology are inexact sciences at the best of times, though getting better through science, and psychiatry from a non-psychiatrist in this situation is laughable. You sound like a man who spends his free time in 3-D flight simulators bragging to everyone that he knows how to fly a plane.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Also, enough with the vomit-names. Pukington isn't even a pun, it's just stupid.

[a700hitter]

Yeah, just the other day I was watching an interview where Albert Pujols was talking about how difficult it is to focus on baseball while dealing with an abusive stepfather and keeping his grades up for college applications. Seriously, do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

 

Coaching anyone who is not an MLB player gives you as much experience and right to psychoanalyze pros as I have. That is to say none.

 

I have a 'half dozen' years of experience in a few things, notably working in and managing chain restaurants. (I was a GM at a Blimpies for a little over a year and a half and have been a Shift Manager at several other places over the years), but I wouldn't begin to tell someone else who has been doing the job on the highest available level, say, the manager of an exclusive Los Angeles restaurant, what he was doing wrong, and I certainly wouldn't do it to someone doing the job on the highest level by assuring people around me that I know exactly what their problem is. Your experience is great, glad you got to work with baseball. But someone who spent 30 years coaching high school and college baseball (obviously not elite colleges, or I'm sure we'd hear it from you. Community College? Were any of the teams you coached in the NCAA?) has zero of the necessary credentials to tell us that they know exactly what is going on inside a player or managers head, or how to fix it. Psychiatry and psychology are inexact sciences at the best of times, though getting better through science, and psychiatry from a non-psychiatrist in this situation is laughable. You sound like a man who spends his free time in 3-D flight simulators bragging to everyone that he knows how to fly a plane.

YOTN, you are one of my favorite members on TalkSox, but you are overstating things. You don't have to be an expert in psychology to read a player's body language or to figure out that a pitcher can't handle late inning pressure. Other players and coaches can read these cues at every level of ball. SBF is not saying that he has the cure for Bard, but he is saying that in his experience, that Bard looks like his head is messed up. Performing at this level takes a high degree of confidence and focus. Yogi used to say that 90 percent of the game is half mental. Did you ever see Calvin Schiraldi sweating after his first warm up like Patrick Ewing on the Foul Line in a playoff game? He'd have that "deer in the headlights" look and you just knew he had some squirrels running around in his head.

 

By all accounts, Bard is healthy, but he can't throw strikes anymore. Is it a mechanical issue? Yes, that is probably a large component. Is there a mental component to his problems, I would say that is a good bet also. A mechanical flaw doesn't explain the way he would unravel when dealing with base runners. The guy would absolutely have brain cramps in that situation. When I watched him in spring training, I posted that he was having trouble maintaining focus from inning to inning. That was my observation from his performance and body language. I didn't need a degree to see that. Shortly after I made my observation, Bard acknowledged the issue himself. He was letting innings get away from him turning good outings into lousy ones. He acknowledged that the focus of a starter was different than a reliever.

 

In these cases a guy can straighten out by making a mechanical adjustment that boosts his confidence. It is rarely just the mechanical adjustment that turns a guy around. A lot of times a coach suggests minor mechanical adjustments to a player just to break him out of his funk. Sometimes a guy is thinking too much about mechanics and it is hurting his performance. Another Yogi-ism-- you can't hit and think at the same time. Sometimes a coach tries to get the guy to clear his head completely.

 

I agree with Fred. There is definitely a mental component to Bard's problem. If this was just about arm slot, it would be fixed already. I don't know if you remember Don Sutton. He's in the Hall of Fame and he had such severe issues with the mental part of the game that he underwent hypnosis and he was given a post hypnotic suggestion to use to calm himself on the mound. Hopefully, Bard can straighten himself out, but if he doesn't he wouldn't be the first one to be beaten by the mental side of the game. There have been a lot of guys whose career succumbed to the mental side of the game.

[a700hitter]

Also' date=' enough with the vomit-names. Pukington isn't even a pun, it's just stupid.[/quote']YOTN, you are a mod. How about addressing some of the trolls that only snipe at and insult other posters. I wish people would call out that s***. That's more offensive to me than some corny nicknames for players.

[FredLynn]

YOTN' date=' you are a mod. How about addressing some of the trolls that only snipe at and insult other posters. I wish people would call out that s***. That's more offensive to me than some corny nicknames for players.[/quote']

 

Nicknames don't bother me either 700. I think that mods are also posters here who are free to express their dislike for aspects of some of the posts outside of their mod role. It would, however, be useful if, when a warning was being given, that it was clearly identified as such. Not sure if this falls into that category.

[seabeachfred]

Yeah, just the other day I was watching an interview where Albert Pujols was talking about how difficult it is to focus on baseball while dealing with an abusive stepfather and keeping his grades up for college applications. Seriously, do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

 

Coaching anyone who is not an MLB player gives you as much experience and right to psychoanalyze pros as I have. That is to say none.

 

I have a 'half dozen' years of experience in a few things, notably working in and managing chain restaurants. (I was a GM at a Blimpies for a little over a year and a half and have been a Shift Manager at several other places over the years), but I wouldn't begin to tell someone else who has been doing the job on the highest available level, say, the manager of an exclusive Los Angeles restaurant, what he was doing wrong, and I certainly wouldn't do it to someone doing the job on the highest level by assuring people around me that I know exactly what their problem is. Your experience is great, glad you got to work with baseball. But someone who spent 30 years coaching high school and college baseball (obviously not elite colleges, or I'm sure we'd hear it from you. Community College? Were any of the teams you coached in the NCAA?) has zero of the necessary credentials to tell us that they know exactly what is going on inside a player or managers head, or how to fix it. Psychiatry and psychology are inexact sciences at the best of times, though getting better through science, and psychiatry from a non-psychiatrist in this situation is laughable. You sound like a man who spends his free time in 3-D flight simulators bragging to everyone that he knows how to fly a plane.

 

Youk, I never said I KNEW what was going on in Bard's head, just that he has all the signs of a player who is close to unraveling completely. If you have a better idea, I'm all ears, but you don't. All we both know is that he isn't worth s*** right now either to himself, his team or his teammates. And it doesn't matter where I coached ( junior college, SR Babe Ruth, Stan Musial, high school if you're interested). ALL players on ALL levels are susceptible to mental anguish and breakdowns, and in my experiences working with young athletes from 14 to 35 over the years I've seen enough of these types to draw some conclusions even if you don't like the conclusions I've drawn.

 

In short, Bard right now is menace to himself, his teammates and his team. He is close to being totally ruined as a pitcher. THAT IS MY OPINION and if you disagree with me, that's fine, but I'll tell you if that is so I am a lot closer to knowing his problems than you are.

[example1]

YOTN' date=' you are one of my favorite members on TalkSox, but you are overstating things. You don't have to be an expert in psychology to read a player's [b']body language [/b]or to figure out that a pitcher can't handle late inning pressure. Other players and coaches can read these cues at every level of ball. SBF is not saying that he has the cure for Bard, but he is saying that in his experience, that Bard looks like his head is messed up. Performing at this level takes a high degree of confidence and focus. Yogi used to say that 90 percent of the game is half mental. Did you ever see Calvin Schiraldi sweating after his first warm up like Patrick Ewing on the Foul Line in a playoff game? He'd have that "deer in the headlights" look and you just knew he had some squirrels running around in his head.

 

By all accounts, Bard is healthy, but he can't throw strikes anymore. Is it a mechanical issue? Yes, that is probably a large component. Is there a mental component to his problems, I would say that is a good bet also. A mechanical flaw doesn't explain the way he would unravel when dealing with base runners. The guy would absolutely have brain cramps in that situation. When I watched him in spring training, I posted that he was having trouble maintaining focus from inning to inning. That was my observation from his performance and body language. I didn't need a degree to see that. Shortly after I made my observation, Bard acknowledged the issue himself. He was letting innings get away from him turning good outings into lousy ones. He acknowledged that the focus of a starter was different than a reliever.

 

In these cases a guy can straighten out by making a mechanical adjustment that boosts his confidence. It is rarely just the mechanical adjustment that turns a guy around. A lot of times a coach suggests minor mechanical adjustments to a player just to break him out of his funk. Sometimes a guy is thinking too much about mechanics and it is hurting his performance. Another Yogi-ism-- you can't hit and think at the same time. Sometimes a coach tries to get the guy to clear his head completely.

 

I agree with Fred. There is definitely a mental component to Bard's problem. If this was just about arm slot, it would be fixed already. I don't know if you remember Don Sutton. He's in the Hall of Fame and he had such severe issues with the mental part of the game that he underwent hypnosis and he was given a post hypnotic suggestion to use to calm himself on the mound. Hopefully, Bard can straighten himself out, but if he doesn't he wouldn't be the first one to be beaten by the mental side of the game. There have been a lot of guys whose career succumbed to the mental side of the game.

 

Of course there's a mental component. At that level it is largely mental. AT the same time, you mentioned body language numerous times. I'm willing to bet that SBF (and you) haven't watched a single second of Bard's supposed "meltdowns" at the AAA level. If that's the case, how can you know what his body language was like in those instances?

 

This is all flimsy armchair psychologist stuff. Yes, he has to get his head right. No, you don't know whether he is "broken" or not. That's beyond your knowledge level. Remember, neither of you have ever had a single discussion with Bard... yet you pretend that your years of watchign baseball are enough to categorically state that he's irreparable (more SBF than you, a700). Others see that as absurd.

[a700hitter]

Of course there's a mental component. At that level it is largely mental. AT the same time, you mentioned body language numerous times. I'm willing to bet that SBF (and you) haven't watched a single second of Bard's supposed "meltdowns" at the AAA level. If that's the case, how can you know what his body language was like in those instances?

 

This is all flimsy armchair psychologist stuff. Yes, he has to get his head right. No, you don't know whether he is "broken" or not. That's beyond your knowledge level. Remember, neither of you have ever had a single discussion with Bard... yet you pretend that your years of watchign baseball are enough to categorically state that he's irreparable (more SBF than you, a700). Others see that as absurd.

I am going by what I observed since Spring Training and his own words throughout that time. I didn't say that I observed what he did in AAA although I have seen some highlights of him hitting batters. All I am saying is that you don't shake the mental part of things that easily. If this was purely an arm slot issue, he'd be fixed already. I don't claim to know whether he is broken permanently at this point, but I don't think it is absurd to opine that the kid's head is probably mush right now. Not at all. Is he permanently broken? Only time will tell, but he wouldn't be the first to be beaten by the mental side of the game.

 

You make me laugh, because you posit all sorts of theories about behind the scenes negotiations and player moves and the motivations of management etc. That's something you can't even observe, but you call this crazy armchair psychologist stuff. Get a grip. It's just opinion based on observation. SBF is the first one to happily admit he is wrong about this stuff, so there is no need to denigrate his opinion.

[FredLynn]

Of course there's a mental component. At that level it is largely mental. AT the same time, you mentioned body language numerous times. I'm willing to bet that SBF (and you) haven't watched a single second of Bard's supposed "meltdowns" at the AAA level. If that's the case, how can you know what his body language was like in those instances?

 

This is all flimsy armchair psychologist stuff. Yes, he has to get his head right. No, you don't know whether he is "broken" or not. That's beyond your knowledge level. Remember, neither of you have ever had a single discussion with Bard... yet you pretend that your years of watchign baseball are enough to categorically state that he's irreparable (more SBF than you, a700). Others see that as absurd.

 

First, I have no idea if Bard is reparable or not. My own opinion, my LAYMAN'S opinion, is that he will never regain his former level of effectiveness.

There are opinions, and then there are educated opinions. Fred has had extensive experience in managing real baseball players. I have not. Have you? Just as I would hope that you would value my experience as a doctor when I offer a medical opinion (not that its always right), I would hope that you would value Fred's opinion more than a layman's opinion because of HIS experience in the field. I know I do.

[redsoxfan3]

This is a crazy debate. Anyone with some common sense knows that Bard's struggles have to do somewhat with his mentality. He was put into a tough situation. He was thrown into the starting role and he failed. He was an elite reliever and now he is struggling with his control. The failure as a starting pitcher has to have an impact on him psychologically. He wouldn't be human if it didn't. Even if he doesn't want to admit it, it does have an impact. I think Bard is good enough and tough enough to work through this and get back to becoming a reliable reliever. He can take as much time as he needs in AAA.

[seabeachfred]

Of course there's a mental component. At that level it is largely mental. AT the same time, you mentioned body language numerous times. I'm willing to bet that SBF (and you) haven't watched a single second of Bard's supposed "meltdowns" at the AAA level. If that's the case, how can you know what his body language was like in those instances?

 

This is all flimsy armchair psychologist stuff. Yes, he has to get his head right. No, you don't know whether he is "broken" or not. That's beyond your knowledge level. Remember, neither of you have ever had a single discussion with Bard... yet you pretend that your years of watchign baseball are enough to categorically state that he's irreparable (more SBF than you, a700). Others see that as absurd.

 

I'm still waiting for Youk and now you to tell me what YOU both think is Bard's problem. Neither one of you have and yet we know that right now he is mentally and mechanically all screwed up, and while I haven't seen him at Pawtucket I saw enough of him on the games I get on NESN to know that we was and apparently is still unraveling. To me he looked like he didn't even want to be out on that mound, and, yes, it looked like that to me in his body language. I also said he might be CLOSE to coming apart; maybe redeemable, maybe not, and it IS MY OPINION THAT UNLESS CORRECTIVE MEASURES ARE TAKEN SOON YOU CAN KISS HIM OFF. That is MY opinion bases on w hat I saw of him and from my experience in working with players for a good deal of my life. Just because you don't like what I say does not make it inaccurate. We'll see how this turns out but right now we will just have to agree to disagree. Since you said there is a mental component and his head is not screwed on right it appears to me that you just want to disagree to be disagreeable instead of conceding that 700, Pumpsie and I could be on to something.

[seabeachfred]

This is a crazy debate. Anyone with some common sense knows that Bard's struggles have to do somewhat with his mentality. He was put into a tough situation. He was thrown into the starting role and he failed. He was an elite reliever and now he is struggling with his control. The failure as a starting pitcher has to have an impact on him psychologically. He wouldn't be human if it didn't. Even if he doesn't want to admit it' date=' it does have an impact. I think Bard is good enough and tough enough to work through this and get back to becoming a reliable reliever. He can take as much time as he needs in AAA.[/quote']

 

RSF3---Thanks for adding your take on things in what has suddenly turned into a semi-contentious thread. 700, Pumpsie and I are only GIVING OUR OPINION of what is wrong with Bard with me predicting that if corrective measure are not taken it could be the end for him. I do hope the Red Sox give him as much time as need be to get his head on straight and his mechanics back to what is needed to succeed on the big league level.

 

One of the reasons I have a low regard for Cherington (there are many) is that he was convinced that Bard was capable of starting when all the time we had a knock down 8th inning set up man who from May through August of last year was about as automatic as time---until overwork did him in. Youk and EX1 have offered no differing opinions as to what the problem is but rather tear down what I and a couple of others have said. They need to understand if they don't already that baseball IS as mental a g ame as it is physical and right now Bard is in serious jeopardy of losing his career. I hope I'm wrong and will be the first to admit it if I am, that's a promise, but to me he looks like he is ready to go over the wall. This should never have happened because he never should have been made a starting pitcher and I said that from the beginning.

[Cocos Disciples]

I feel like people take every post on this site personally. Everybody just relax.

 

And also don't quote this post saying how it wasn't you, because if it really wasn't you then I am probably not referring to you.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I feel like people take every post on this site personally. Everybody just relax.

 

And also don't quote this post saying how it wasn't you, because if it really wasn't you then I am probably not referring to you.

 

Dude I haven't even posted in this thread. Get off my back.

[a700hitter]

I feel like people take every post on this site personally. Everybody just relax.

 

And also don't quote this post saying how it wasn't you, because if it really wasn't you then I am probably not referring to you.

Why are you attacking me. What a dick!!

[SCM33]

This is a crazy debate. Anyone with some common sense knows that Bard's struggles have to do somewhat with his mentality. He was put into a tough situation. He was thrown into the starting role and he failed. He was an elite reliever and now he is struggling with his control. The failure as a starting pitcher has to have an impact on him psychologically. He wouldn't be human if it didn't. Even if he doesn't want to admit it' date=' it does have an impact. I think Bard is good enough and tough enough to work through this and get back to becoming a reliable reliever. He can take as much time as he needs in AAA.[/quote']

 

Bard brought all this upon himself.

[Bellhorn04]

Nobody knows exactly WTF Bard's problem is. Could be physical affereffects from being used too much last year. Could be mechanical problems from the change to starting. Could be mental. Could be all three. He seems to be a guy who really needs help. As I showed his numbers with Varitek catching him were incredibly good, and much better than with other catchers. I think he can turn things around but he needs a good coach.

[Station 13]

It isn't the first time Bard lost his heater. As a starter in A Ball he went from throwing 98 in college to what he is now. It will take time for him to be fixed, if ever. We'll see him after the break.

[SoxSport]

That decision to convert Bard into a starter was a bigger disaster than meets the eye: If Bard closes, they trade for Gio G. instead of Bailey. They tried to get both but didn't have enough to do it. But they had enough to get one. And they chose the wrong one. Gio just won his 10th game of the season last night.

[mvp 78]

If Bard closes' date=' they trade for Gio G. instead of Bailey. They tried to get both but didn't have enough to do it. But they had enough to get one. And they chose the wrong one.[/quote']

 

Revisionist history. Sox weren't going to give up the prospects Beane wanted for Gio.

[iortiz]

Hate to say but it's likely FO screwed Bard's career with this experiment. Sure, by the time seemed the "correct" move given the circumstances (They didn't bring a SP, which pissed me off). As I've said here and there even before they "converted him into a SP", Bard's problem is in his head IMO, and that gentlemen is maybe harder to fix. We'll see how this ends up.

[Bellhorn04]

Phil Hughes seems to be 'un-ruined' now...