What's next for Daniel Bard?

[Dojji]

He was facing the Orioles when he had his freakout.

[mvp 78]

I thought it was the Jays when he went 2 innings and hit everyone?

[Bellhorn04]

I thought it was the Jays when he went 2 innings and hit everyone?

 

That's correct.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TOR/TOR201206030.shtml

[redsoxrules]

Its likely that Bard will never make it back to the ML. Our FO screwed him up pretty good by requiring changes in his mechanics. Now he can't get back to where he was. Then they left him in the rotation way beyond when it was clear that he had failed that experiment. Great job gang!

 

Bard is the one who wanted to be a starter , he bitched about it .

It was either the FO traded him to a team that would make him a starter or try him out as a starter.

[FredLynn]

Bard is the one who wanted to be a starter , he bitched about it .

It was either the FO traded him to a team that would make him a starter or try him out as a starter.

 

Lets see. Who exactly is in charge here: Bard or the FO? Bard is under contract and team control. He should do what he is told to do, and that is what is best for the team, not what is best for Daniel Bard. I could not care less that he wanted to start. So what? He makes his request, and its either accepted or denied. Then he lives with it. Our FO blew it when they allowed him to call the shots and then refused to believe that the experiment had failed for way too long. Look at the results for proof.

[Bellhorn04]

Lets see. Who exactly is in charge here: Bard or the FO? Bard is under contract and team control. He should do what he is told to do' date=' and that is what is best for the team, not what is best for Daniel Bard. I could not care less that he wanted to start. So what? He makes his request, and its either accepted or denied. Then he lives with it. Our FO blew it when they allowed him to call the shots and then refused to believe that the experiment had failed for way too long. Look at the results for proof.[/quote']

 

We don't know exactly how this went down. One version is that the FO went to Bard and asked him if he would rather be a closer or a starter this year.

 

Also, if we weren't coming into the season with such a shortage of starters, I highly doubt this would even have been an option. They let Bard 'try out' for starter in the spring and he did well enough to get the spot. Valentine seemed to agree he had shown enough to be a starter.

[FredLynn]

We don't know exactly how this went down. One version is that the FO went to Bard and asked him if he would rather be a closer or a starter this year.

 

Also, if we weren't coming into the season with such a shortage of starters, I highly doubt this would even have been an option. They let Bard 'try out' for starter in the spring and he did well enough to get the spot. Valentine seemed to agree he had shown enough to be a starter.

 

I agree that we do not know how it all went down. Bard is on record as saying that he prefers starting, I believe. The issue I have is that it took too long for our FO to see that the experiment was failing and that as a result, they may have ruined a very good RP.

[example1]

Is there really question about "how this went down"? Bard wanted to start. The Sox wanted him to start. The two agreed. If Bard hadn't wanted to start, he probably still would have been stretched out as a starter and Valentine would have ended up putting him in the pen. The Sox didn't necessarily want him to close. The list of starters available this off-season was poor, Bard could hit 100mph with his FB. It's not rocket science here fellas. If it had worked out he could have been a very nice and cheap SP. It didn't so now they are working him back up as a reliever.

 

I read some quotes from Bard saying, essentially, that as a reliever he used a lower arm slot that allowed him to throw harder but effected his command. As a starter he needed the command but lost the velocity. Overall he lost the arm slot that he spent so much time in the minors developing.

 

Pessimists can declare the project as lost and Bard washed up as a pitcher. Optimists can hope he regains the arm slot that allowed him to be one of the best setup men in baseball. All of us can wait to see what happens.

[a700hitter]

Is there really question about "how this went down"? Bard wanted to start. The Sox wanted him to start. The two agreed. If Bard hadn't wanted to start, he probably still would have been stretched out as a starter and Valentine would have ended up putting him in the pen. The Sox didn't necessarily want him to close. The list of starters available this off-season was poor, Bard could hit 100mph with his FB. It's not rocket science here fellas. If it had worked out he could have been a very nice and cheap SP. It didn't so now they are working him back up as a reliever.

 

I read some quotes from Bard saying, essentially, that as a reliever he used a lower arm slot that allowed him to throw harder but effected his command. As a starter he needed the command but lost the velocity. Overall he lost the arm slot that he spent so much time in the minors developing.

 

Pessimists can declare the project as lost and Bard washed up as a pitcher. Optimists can hope he regains the arm slot that allowed him to be one of the best setup men in baseball. All of us can wait to see what happens.

Once they realized that Bard was not going to be a top of the rotation guy, they should have aborted the project and sent him back to his role where he is an elite performer. There were not any flashes of brilliance as a starter. Yes, you expect bumps along the way of the transition, but he never flashed any brilliance. You expect to see some indication of what you expect him to become. There were no flashes, because in my opinion he just doesn't have the ability to be more than a 4th or 5th starter. Those guys are a dime a dozen.

[example1]

Once they realized that Bard was not going to be a top of the rotation guy' date=' they should have aborted the project and sent him back to his role where he is an elite performer. There were not any flashes of brilliance as a starter. Yes, you expect bumps along the way of the transition, but he never flashed any brilliance. You expect to see some indication of what you expect him to become. There were no flashes, because in my opinion he just doesn't have the ability to be more than a 4th or 5th starter. Those guys are a dime a dozen.[/quote']

 

I'd say this is overstating it a bit. 4th and 5th starters aren't a dime a dozen. If they were then we wouldn't have discussed the Sox quest to get Roy Oswalt all off-season as if it really mattered.

 

Bard brilliant? No, but good enough for his first 3 starts? Absolutely. I see why they waited him out.

 

Over his first 3 starts he had a 3.72 ERA with 19k in 19.1 IP. There was reason to think he could be trending in the right direction at that point. He just wasn't.

 

That's not a flash of brilliance, but it was essentially about as good as Doubront has been all season. An ERA under 4 and 1+ K per-inning would be more than adequate.

[redsoxrules]

Bard pitched 1 good game as a starter this year and that was against the White Sox.

[a700hitter]

I'd say this is overstating it a bit. 4th and 5th starters aren't a dime a dozen. If they were then we wouldn't have discussed the Sox quest to get Roy Oswalt all off-season as if it really mattered.

 

Bard brilliant? No, but good enough for his first 3 starts? Absolutely. I see why they waited him out.

 

Over his first 3 starts he had a 3.72 ERA with 19k in 19.1 IP. There was reason to think he could be trending in the right direction at that point. He just wasn't.

 

That's not a flash of brilliance, but it was essentially about as good as Doubront has been all season. An ERA under 4 and 1+ K per-inning would be more than adequate.

Doubront showed flashes in Spring Training and at the beginning of the season. He has had games where he has struck out batters in bunches and been very hard to make solid contact against. He pitched brilliantly against the yankees in the debacle where they lost the 9 run lead. Bard was at best passable in some starts, never brilliant, not even for an inning or two. They waited until he deteriorated to the point where he can no longer remember how to pitch effectively.

[SoxFanForsyth]

John Tomase ‏@jtomase

In Pawtucket, Bard says he reached conclusion he should return to pen. Team, he said, agreed. "I'm back where I belong," he said.

 

Joe McDonald ‏@ESPNJoeyMac

Bard said he's no longer a starter. He believes he's back where he belongs as a reliever. He called Cherington to tell him. Both agree.

 

Good news. Bard back to the pen. Now he can focus on being that elite RP that he used to be.

 

Even better news is that Bard is the one who initiated the decision.

[a700hitter]

John Tomase ‏@jtomase

In Pawtucket, Bard says he reached conclusion he should return to pen. Team, he said, agreed. "I'm back where I belong," he said.

 

Joe McDonald ‏@ESPNJoeyMac

Bard said he's no longer a starter. He believes he's back where he belongs as a reliever. He called Cherington to tell him. Both agree.

 

Good news. Bard back to the pen. Now he can focus on being that elite RP that he used to be.

 

Even better news is that Bard is the one who initiated the decision.

If he can remember how.

[redsoxrules]

Fantastic news !

 

Hopefully he gets his velocity back to where it was

[Station 13]

The team/player finally come to their senses. We need him in the pen. We'd be 2-3 games up with him as a reliever to start this season.

[FredLynn]

John Tomase ‏@jtomase

In Pawtucket, Bard says he reached conclusion he should return to pen. Team, he said, agreed. "I'm back where I belong," he said.

 

Joe McDonald ‏@ESPNJoeyMac

Bard said he's no longer a starter. He believes he's back where he belongs as a reliever. He called Cherington to tell him. Both agree.

 

Good news. Bard back to the pen. Now he can focus on being that elite RP that he used to be.

 

Even better news is that Bard is the one who initiated the decision.

 

I think it would have been even better news if THE TEAM (ie the FO) told him that he is now a reliever. Its absurd that Bard is still calling the shots. Meanwhile, obviously, I wish him the best of luck in regaining his form.

[FredLynn]

Is there really question about "how this went down"? Bard wanted to start. The Sox wanted him to start. The two agreed. If Bard hadn't wanted to start, he probably still would have been stretched out as a starter and Valentine would have ended up putting him in the pen. The Sox didn't necessarily want him to close. The list of starters available this off-season was poor, Bard could hit 100mph with his FB. It's not rocket science here fellas. If it had worked out he could have been a very nice and cheap SP. It didn't so now they are working him back up as a reliever.

 

I read some quotes from Bard saying, essentially, that as a reliever he used a lower arm slot that allowed him to throw harder but effected his command. As a starter he needed the command but lost the velocity. Overall he lost the arm slot that he spent so much time in the minors developing.

 

Pessimists can declare the project as lost and Bard washed up as a pitcher. Optimists can hope he regains the arm slot that allowed him to be one of the best setup men in baseball. All of us can wait to see what happens.

 

Pessimists can declare the project as lost and Bard washed up as a pitcher. Optimists can hope he regains the arm slot that allowed him to be one of the best setup men in baseball.

 

I don't think it takes "an optimist" to hope that Bard regains his arm slot and his effectiveness as a dominant RP for the team. All that takes is to be a Red Sox fan.

[Elktonnick]

I think it would have been even better news if THE TEAM (ie the FO) told him that he is now a reliever. Its absurd that Bard is still calling the shots. Meanwhile' date=' obviously, I wish him the best of luck in regaining his form.[/quote']

 

I agree. Bard's attitude has been symptomatic of what was and is wrong with this club. My hope is that reality is setting in and the inmates are no longer running the asylum. There is still more that needs to be done in that regard, however.

[mvp 78]

Yeah, because telling Bard that wouldn't contribute to the "toxic clubhouse" that people have whined about...

[FredLynn]

Yeah' date=' because telling Bard that wouldn't contribute to the "toxic clubhouse" that people have whined about...[/quote']

 

Correct. Thats the way lines of authority are supposed to run in the workplace. I am sure that you are able to tell your boss what your function will be in the company any time you like too.

[Bellhorn04]

Correct. Thats the way lines of authority are supposed to run in the workplace. I am sure that you are able to tell your boss what your function will be in the company any time you like too.

 

This team is not really in the habit of letting all the pitchers decide what their roles will be. I'm not sure why they made a special exception for Bard, but I assume it was because they believed it would ultimately be in the best interest of the team. Aceves wanted to start too and they said no.

[Rdsxmbnt]

This team is not really in the habit of letting all the pitchers decide what their roles will be. I'm not sure why they made a special exception for Bard' date=' but I assume it was because they believed it would ultimately be in the best interest of the team. Aceves wanted to start too and they said no.[/quote']

 

I highly doubt pitchers are deciding their roles, more likely they allowed Bard to say he found himself in order to not bruise his ego in front of the Boston media. If the Red Sox didn't think it was a good idea for Bard to start then they wouldn't have let him try it in the first place.

[mvp 78]

Correct. Thats the way lines of authority are supposed to run in the workplace. I am sure that you are able to tell your boss what your function will be in the company any time you like too.

 

I also don't have a guaranteed contract for millions of dollars. It's not the 60's anymore, baseball teams can't be managed/run that way. It's not like your average workplace. It's not a fair comparisson.

[jung]

Actually asking Bard to go think about it and deciding both sides would get back together and compare notes is not the same thing as giving Bard the responsibility to decide what his role would be. I fully expect they would have heard Bard out if he had come to a different conclusion and may have even considered his wishes in their final decision but in the end it would be their decision, not Bard's.

[Dojji]

Correct. Thats the way lines of authority are supposed to run in the workplace. I am sure that you are able to tell your boss what your function will be in the company any time you like too.

 

Unless you have a pretty stupid boss, are in training, have an unskilled entry level job, or are filling the exact role your boss recently filled, most bosses will admit they know less about the ins and outs of how you need to do your job than you do. THe job of the boss is to keep the office productive, not to know every last little detail about everyone's day. Under the circumstances it's frequently the role of a worker to (politely) inform the boss of their proper role, and the exact terms of the employment contract. Just don't get an attitude about it.

[FredLynn]

Unless you have a pretty stupid boss' date=' are in training, have an unskilled entry level job, or are filling the exact role your boss recently filled, most bosses will admit they know less about the ins and outs of how you need to do your job than you do. THe job of the boss is to keep the office productive, not to know every last little detail about everyone's day. Under the circumstances it's frequently the role of a worker to (politely) inform the boss of their proper role, and the exact terms of the employment contract. Just don't get an attitude about it.[/quote']

 

I remember working for an HMO in Fountain Valley, California. This was very convenient because I lived in Huntington Beach, the next town over. It took only about 15 minutes to get to work. One day I walked into work and was called into my bosses office and they told me (not asked me) that starting the next week I was transferred to the Anaheim facility, about 40 minutes of southern California freeway driving away. I knew that had I refused or resisted I would have lost my job.

Thats just one personal example of how bosses run your life at work. There are many more that I can share with you and more that you can share with me. Bard is an employee of the Boston Red Sox. He should do what he is told or he should retire. Given that choice, I am sure he would choose to keep earning millions of dollars and do what he is told to do.

[Bellhorn04]

I remember working for an HMO in Fountain Valley, California. This was very convenient because I lived in Huntington Beach, the next town over. It took only about 15 minutes to get to work. One day I walked into work and was called into my bosses office and they told me (not asked me) that starting the next week I was transferred to the Anaheim facility, about 40 minutes of southern California freeway driving away. I knew that had I refused or resisted I would have lost my job.

Thats just one personal example of how bosses run your life at work. There are many more that I can share with you and more that you can share with me. Bard is an employee of the Boston Red Sox. He should do what he is told or he should retire. Given that choice, I am sure he would choose to keep earning millions of dollars and do what he is told to do.

 

I honestly don't think our own personal work experiences have any bearing on Bard's situation. There are countless examples of work environments where employees' input is encouraged and countless more where it isn't. There are different schools of thought on which is more effective...etc. etc.

 

The question that hasn't been answered is, why would they let Bard have this kind of input when they haven't done it with any other pitchers? The only logical answer is that they thought it was the best way to handle this particular player.

[SoxSport]

The latest in the Bard soap opera is he had a sudden realization he belonged in the bullpen. That was coincident with talking to Cherington and Valentine about moving back to the bullpen--which is where he belonged in the first place--given his history.

 

I get the impression that there are many good posters in newsgroups that have shown better judgement than Cherington so far this season.

[FredLynn]

I honestly don't think our own personal work experiences have any bearing on Bard's situation. There are countless examples of work environments where employees' input is encouraged and countless more where it isn't. There are different schools of thought on which is more effective...etc. etc.

 

The question that hasn't been answered is, why would they let Bard have this kind of input when they haven't done it with any other pitchers? The only logical answer is that they thought it was the best way to handle this particular player.

 

I don't have any problem with allowing Bard a chance to start. Both Bard and the FO thought it was the best thing for the team, and its what Bard wanted to do anyway. So far so good. The problem I have with the way it went down is how long it took for them to realize that it wasn't working. He lost velocity and his K/BB was horrible. It became clear early on that he was not going to be anything more than a back of the rotation SP, and we already had many of those. They should have moved him back to the pen much sooner-especially after Bailey went down-so that he wasn't ruined as a ML pitcher. I have my doubts that he can regain his previous dominating form.