JD Drew

[VA Sox Fan]

Oh there we go with that bandwagon s*** again. Stuff it User; if you don't think I'm a rabid and ardent Red Sox fan you're the stupid one. And where did you pick that crap up from? Not from anyone who knows me' date=' that's a certainty. I also encourage you to do exactly that......put Elk and me on ignore. We don't like talking to morons either.[/quote']

 

If he put you on ignore, he wouldn't see or respond to this post.

 

User Name? is pretty new out here and one of the better new posters I've seen in a while.

[User Name]

If you recall I said in my lifetime. Piersall played center. Evens, Conig and Jensen played right Nixon Leary and Q played during my liketime Hooper and Freeman were before my time. Drew has Three above and three below Nixon o'Leary and Q . Three above and three below is in the middle, the classic defintion of mediocre.

 

You admit there are uncontrollable variables which precisely the point about the limitations of OPS and its inherent subjectivity.

 

Ojective as "you can get" is still subjective. Again the larger point I was making.

BTW the perfect is the enemy of the good. QED

 

Everything has its limitations. In this case, we're looking for the "best available", and by the best available we mean the one that eliminates the most noise (outside factors) from the evaluation.

[User Name]

If he put you on ignore, he wouldn't see or respond to this post.

 

User Name? is pretty new out here and one of the better new posters I've seen in a while.

 

I've also been a Red Sox fan all my life. :harhar:

[Elktonnick]

Everything has its limitations. In this case' date=' we're looking for the "best available", and by the best available we mean the one that eliminates the most noise (outside factors) from the evaluation.[/quote']

 

Well that's progress:D

[Elktonnick]

I've also been a Red Sox fan all my life. :harhar:

 

I wasn't. I was a Braves fan until 1953 when they left Boston. Does that make me a bandwagon fan:lol:

[VA Sox Fan]

I've also been a Red Sox fan all my life. :harhar:

 

That, I suspected. Me too. And I'm old. Turned 11 in 1975 so, ya know. Remember 1986 more clearly, unfortunately. But my clearest memory is of 2004. :thumbsup:

[mvp 78]

Who even remembers Quintana in RF? He only played 80 games there. He'll always be a chubby 1b to me.

 

Remember him from the first few years of going to see the PawSox too.

[Elktonnick]

Who even remembers Quintana in RF? He only played 80 games there. He'll always be a chubby 1b to me.

 

Remember him from the first few years of going to see the PawSox too.

 

You are right but I played the game. BTW during his time with the Sox i lived in Latin America and didn't get to see or listen to a ML game for three years.

[seabeachfred]

If he put you on ignore, he wouldn't see or respond to this post.

 

User Name? is pretty new out here and one of the better new posters I've seen in a while.

 

Whether he sees it or not VA doesn't interest me in the least. Telling me I'm not a Red Sox fan is someting far different and much more irritating. Hell, you saw me down at Fort Myers in 2007. Did I look like anything other than a Red Sox fan? One or two guys from a defunct board come on here a few years ago, spout some crap and naive simpletons like User swallow it whole.

 

I found it irritating that he was attacking my friend Elktonnick. They both had their opinions of various and sundry offensive stats but to the other guy only his had any validity. None of us know it all and we shouldn't act like we do.

 

BTW, have you been to Fort Myers since 2007?

[seabeachfred]

That' date=' I suspected. Me too. And I'm old. Turned 11 in 1975 so, ya know. Remember 1986 more clearly, unfortunately. But my clearest memory is of 2004. :thumbsup:[/quote']

 

Old???? I was 34 in 1975 and after hearing you say that I think I should go out and buy a cane. 71 now; may be the oldest guy on the board.

[example1]

This is one of the stupidest discussions between relatively new posters that I have seen in awhile.

 

I don't see how people can argue that Drew was a horrible signing or even below average during his tenure with the Red Sox. Was he a disappointment compared to the expectations that many of us had? Probably. Was he valuable in the ways that many of us traditionally value players? No.

 

However, advanced metrics were not invented for JD Drew, despite what some would like to believe. They exist to evaluate all players and people like myself, User Name and Theo Epstein all see the value in JD Drew. Others disagree about that.

 

In disagreeing about that, apparently they are putting not just the player on trial, but the metrics too. I can't help but wonder if Drew came out more poorly in the sabermetric world whether those same posters would be using the metrics to make their point...

 

The whole discussion about the "limits" of sabermetrics is always funny to me. Apparently, because the limits of measurement are quantifiable, they are somehow WORSE than the limits of gut instinct and limited observation.

 

Clearly there is space for subjectivity in the numbers. However, if the numbers go against my perception of a player I think its a good reason to double and even triple check my preconceptions before going against those numbers.

 

I can't remember specific defensive plays that Drew made that saved runs or games or seasons, but they could certainly be there and I know those are enormously valuable for a team.

 

How many Nelson Cruz HRs are worth that catch that he didn't make in the playoffs? Anyway, I digress.

 

You new posters should all lighten up a bit. Don't bring your s***** arguments over from whatever s***** other board you used to be on. It is meaningless to most of us and, frankly, makes you sound like teenaged girls gathered around a locker.

[a700hitter]

Whether he sees it or not VA doesn't interest me in the least. Telling me I'm not a Red Sox fan is someting far different and much more irritating. Hell, you saw me down at Fort Myers in 2007. Did I look like anything other than a Red Sox fan? One or two guys from a defunct board come on here a few years ago, spout some crap and naive simpletons like User swallow it whole.

 

I found it irritating that he was attacking my friend Elktonnick. They both had their opinions of various and sundry offensive stats but to the other guy only his had any validity. None of us know it all and we shouldn't act like we do.

 

BTW, have you been to Fort Myers since 2007?

I've been going to Ft. Myers every year since 2004. I'm looking forward to the new ballpark in 2012.

[SCM33]

Who even remembers Quintana in RF? He only played 80 games there. He'll always be a chubby 1b to me.

 

Remember him from the first few years of going to see the PawSox too.

 

I remember him. He could have been a productive player for us (if not for the bad car accident he was in), though he was out of a position. He was too slow and fat for the OF and Mo Vaughn was around the corner. Without looking, I remember him not being a very good 1B and Mo actually beat him out for the starting job in 93.

 

This is one of the stupidest discussions between relatively new posters that I have seen in awhile.

 

I don't see how people can argue that Drew was a horrible signing or even below average during his tenure with the Red Sox. Was he a disappointment compared to the expectations that many of us had? Probably. Was he valuable in the ways that many of us traditionally value players? No.

 

However, advanced metrics were not invented for JD Drew, despite what some would like to believe. They exist to evaluate all players and people like myself, User Name and Theo Epstein all see the value in JD Drew. Others disagree about that.

 

In disagreeing about that, apparently they are putting not just the player on trial, but the metrics too. I can't help but wonder if Drew came out more poorly in the sabermetric world whether those same posters would be using the metrics to make their point...

 

The whole discussion about the "limits" of sabermetrics is always funny to me. Apparently, because the limits of measurement are quantifiable, they are somehow WORSE than the limits of gut instinct and limited observation.

 

Clearly there is space for subjectivity in the numbers. However, if the numbers go against my perception of a player I think its a good reason to double and even triple check my preconceptions before going against those numbers.

 

I can't remember specific defensive plays that Drew made that saved runs or games or seasons, but they could certainly be there and I know those are enormously valuable for a team.

 

How many Nelson Cruz HRs are worth that catch that he didn't make in the playoffs? Anyway, I digress.

 

You new posters should all lighten up a bit. Don't bring your s***** arguments over from whatever s***** other board you used to be on. It is meaningless to most of us and, frankly, makes you sound like teenaged girls gathered around a locker.

 

JD Drew made a lot of money and it is arguable whether or not he was worth it when you weigh the amount of time he missed in to the equation. The biggest problem with Drew was that he was a pussy and treated baseball as a job, rather than a game which pisses people off.

 

Ive said before......I dont give a s*** that hes gone....I wont miss him, but if he were around for another year.....I would show the same emotion....couldnt care less.

 

Its maddening that he once had HOF all around talent and never quite reached the accolades he could have.

[iortiz]

I remember him. He could have been a productive player for us (if not for the bad car accident he was in), though he was out of a position. He was too slow and fat for the OF and Mo Vaughn was around the corner. Without looking, I remember him not being a very good 1B and Mo actually beat him out for the starting job in 93.

 

 

 

JD Drew made a lot of money and it is arguable whether or not he was worth it when you weigh the amount of time he missed in to the equation. The biggest problem with Drew was that he was a pussy and treated baseball as a job, rather than a game which pisses people off.

 

Ive said before......I dont give a s*** that hes gone....I wont miss him, but if he were around for another year.....I would show the same emotion....couldnt care less.

 

Its maddening that he once had HOF all around talent and never quite reached the accolades he could have.

 

This might be the most precise definition about J.D. Drew.

 

Hell, he used to be very disciplined AB and fragile as a porcelain cup. That was David Jonathan Drew.

[Jwmann2]

These threads wouldn't exist if the Sox had made a semi-decent playoff run. The grass is always greener. Someone should go check out the A's and Royals message boards and see what they're talking about.

[User Name]

You new posters should all lighten up a bit. Don't bring your s***** arguments over from whatever s***** other board you used to be on. It is meaningless to most of us and, frankly, makes you sound like teenaged girls gathered around a locker.

 

For the record, i came over from TalkPats, since i am exclusively a Red Sox and Patriots fan.

[Elktonnick]

This is one of the stupidest discussions between relatively new posters that I have seen in awhile.

 

I don't see how people can argue that Drew was a horrible signing or even below average during his tenure with the Red Sox. Was he a disappointment compared to the expectations that many of us had? Probably. Was he valuable in the ways that many of us traditionally value players? No.

 

However, advanced metrics were not invented for JD Drew, despite what some would like to believe. They exist to evaluate all players and people like myself, User Name and Theo Epstein all see the value in JD Drew. Others disagree about that.

 

In disagreeing about that, apparently they are putting not just the player on trial, but the metrics too. I can't help but wonder if Drew came out more poorly in the sabermetric world whether those same posters would be using the metrics to make their point...

 

The whole discussion about the "limits" of sabermetrics is always funny to me. Apparently, because the limits of measurement are quantifiable, they are somehow WORSE than the limits of gut instinct and limited observation.

 

Clearly there is space for subjectivity in the numbers. However, if the numbers go against my perception of a player I think its a good reason to double and even triple check my preconceptions before going against those numbers.

 

I can't remember specific defensive plays that Drew made that saved runs or games or seasons, but they could certainly be there and I know those are enormously valuable for a team.

 

How many Nelson Cruz HRs are worth that catch that he didn't make in the playoffs? Anyway, I digress.

 

You new posters should all lighten up a bit. Don't bring your s***** arguments over from whatever s***** other board you used to be on. It is meaningless to most of us and, frankly, makes you sound like teenaged girls gathered around a locker.

 

As if you don't already have teenage girls with s***** arguments on this board. If you don't like my posts feel free to ignore them. I won't be offended. BTW I post on several board as it suits me.

 

I for one enjoyed my discussion with user. I thought he was an interesting and effective interlocutor. It very helpful to me to understand how strongly those who favor sabermetrics feel about the subject. The fact that you didn't, says more about your needing to lighten up and let some new insights into the mix.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Whether he sees it or not VA doesn't interest me in the least. Telling me I'm not a Red Sox fan is someting far different and much more irritating. Hell, you saw me down at Fort Myers in 2007. Did I look like anything other than a Red Sox fan? One or two guys from a defunct board come on here a few years ago, spout some crap and naive simpletons like User swallow it whole.

 

I found it irritating that he was attacking my friend Elktonnick. They both had their opinions of various and sundry offensive stats but to the other guy only his had any validity. None of us know it all and we shouldn't act like we do.

 

BTW, have you been to Fort Myers since 2007?

 

Oh shut the f*** up. You go to spring training and all of a sudden you're a die hard sox fan? Listen old guy I don't give a s*** if you saw Yaz being born, you're not a fan. Everyone knows it.

[Elktonnick]

Oh shut the f*** up. You go to spring training and all of a sudden you're a die hard sox fan? Listen old guy I don't give a s*** if you saw Yaz being born' date=' you're not a fan. Everyone knows it.[/quote']

 

That's a very provincial attitude. Are you saying that the only legit red sox fans are those born into RSN. Fred is a baseball fan. And he is a red sox fan. He is very passionate. He is quite knowledgeable. He is very opinionated which can rub people the wrong way at times. But he has a valid point of view which is not diminished because he hasn't been a sox fan since birth. Read what he posts you may not agree with it but you may actually learn something.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

He's a baseball fan. DO NOT tell me he is a Red Sox fan. I know he's your buddy but don't cover up for him. You're going to look like a fool if you do.

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/fights-crap-archive/9803-seabeachfred-now-rockies-fan.html

[Elktonnick]

He's a baseball fan. DO NOT tell me he is a Red Sox fan. I know he's your buddy but don't cover up for him. You're going to look like a fool if you do.

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/fights-crap-archive/9803-seabeachfred-now-rockies-fan.html

 

Actually Fred and I have had battles over the years. Some were pretty intense. I've never met him. He says he is a Red Sox fan and I believe him. But whether he is or isn't is not the point, he represents a valid well educated (in baseball terms) point of view. His point of view should be considered on its own merits not because he presents them.

[Bellhorn04]

I've participated in quite a few of these arguments about Drew the last few years. They're actually kind of fun. Not quite as much fun since his averages with the Sox have gotten dragged down the last two years.

 

The knock on him about his fragility and his attitude is tough to dismiss. Wouldn't even attempt it.

 

The knock on his offensive productivity is much more addressable. The primary criticisms always revolve around his low RBI's. What seems to get overlooked is how his high OBP translates into high runs scored totals.

 

The players I think Drew should be compared are guys like Pedroia and Damon.

 

Over his career Drew averages 82 RBI and 98 runs per 162.

Pedroia = 78 and 109

Damon = 75 and 110

 

Also you could bring in someone like Victor Martinez who drives in considerably more but scores considerably less. 104 and 82

 

If you use the simple metric of Runs Created - Runs + RBI - HR, Drew falls just a little below these other 3, who are considered to be good solid offensive producers.

[Palodios]

Over his career Drew averages 82 RBI and 98 runs per 162.

 

[Bellhorn04]

I think it goes like this:

 

Q) Does Drew play enough games?

A) Nope. Move on.

 

Q) When he plays, is he productive?

[Palodios]

I think it goes like this:

 

Q) Does Drew play enough games?

A) Nope. Move on.

 

Q) When he plays, is he productive?

 

I just don't think it is fair to compare him to Pedroia by scaling his numbers. If you scale his numbers, you need to add the runs and rbis of a replacement value player, rather than the numbers if he was healthy.

[Dojji]

Drew really shoulda been a top of the lineup hitter for most of his career. He might not have been comfortable doing it but with his high OBP and middling power it was a better place for him.

[Bellhorn04]

I just don't think it is fair to compare him to Pedroia by scaling his numbers. If you scale his numbers' date=' you need to add the runs and rbis of a replacement value player, rather than the numbers if he was healthy.[/quote']

 

What I think you're saying, or something like this, is that the fragility factor has to be quantified because of the damage it does to the team's performance over the season.

[Elktonnick]

Drew really shoulda been a top of the lineup hitter for most of his career. He might not have been comfortable doing it but with his high OBP and middling power it was a better place for him.

 

That is an excellent point.

[example1]

As if you don't already have teenage girls with s***** arguments on this board. If you don't like my posts feel free to ignore them. I won't be offended. BTW I post on several board as it suits me.

 

I for one enjoyed my discussion with user. I thought he was an interesting and effective interlocutor. It very helpful to me to understand how strongly those who favor sabermetrics feel about the subject. The fact that you didn't, says more about your needing to lighten up and let some new insights into the mix.

 

People were not comparing posters to unknown posters on other sites or dividing the posters here into groups like the sugar coaters and the realists. That's clique s*** and reduces the quality of discussion here. I find that most of the new posters here have come in as reactionary and with a residual chip on their shoulder from the spats on the other boards. Time to let it drop.

[seabeachfred]

This is one of the stupidest discussions between relatively new posters that I have seen in awhile.

 

I don't see how people can argue that Drew was a horrible signing or even below average during his tenure with the Red Sox. Was he a disappointment compared to the expectations that many of us had? Probably. Was he valuable in the ways that many of us traditionally value players? No.

 

However, advanced metrics were not invented for JD Drew, despite what some would like to believe. They exist to evaluate all players and people like myself, User Name and Theo Epstein all see the value in JD Drew. Others disagree about that.

 

In disagreeing about that, apparently they are putting not just the player on trial, but the metrics too. I can't help but wonder if Drew came out more poorly in the sabermetric world whether those same posters would be using the metrics to make their point...

 

The whole discussion about the "limits" of sabermetrics is always funny to me. Apparently, because the limits of measurement are quantifiable, they are somehow WORSE than the limits of gut instinct and limited observation.

 

Clearly there is space for subjectivity in the numbers. However, if the numbers go against my perception of a player I think its a good reason to double and even triple check my preconceptions before going against those numbers.

 

I can't remember specific defensive plays that Drew made that saved runs or games or seasons, but they could certainly be there and I know those are enormously valuable for a team.

 

How many Nelson Cruz HRs are worth that catch that he didn't make in the playoffs? Anyway, I digress.

 

You new posters should all lighten up a bit. Don't bring your s***** arguments over from whatever s***** other board you used to be on. It is meaningless to most of us and, frankly, makes you sound like teenaged girls gathered around a locker.

 

Example----Your post was partly directed at me and I should have seen it coming. I am not very endowed with knowledge about sabermetrics as you and others are so I should have stuck to my own standbys such as RBI's, hr, hits, total bases, slugging and BA. The main point is JD is gone so there is really no point in dredging up his past. He helped us win a WS in 2007 and if he could have stayed healthy he might have contributed more. The guy had humongous talent and I think he wasted a lot of it, but, again, that is history now. You'll hear no more of JD Drew from me on this thread except for what I just said.