2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[Elktonnick]

No big deal nick. Look at the Yankees brouhaha about Soriano last year and Cashman distancing himself from a move that was made from over his head.

 

The good thing for Cash was that other people helping him with the deals freed up time for him to pursue new lady friends.

 

Maybe he needed someone to lick his wounds.<_>

[Palodios]

That's horrible logic. Ownership has money. They should spend it.

 

I agree completely. But I think its clear that ownership gave Cherrington very little to work with this year, and he filled in a lot of holes. The problem was-- he had too many holes to fill, and some of his trades opened holes. Considering what he had to spent, I think he did well.

[SoxSport]

Just saw some data on Bard from last year. Clearly tired in September as his velocity dropped from upper to mid 90s. This guy could be a sleeper ace as a starter. He has enough pitches. I think they figure they have a better than #4 starter. The competition is probably for #5.

[SoxSport]

How do you like those Yanks unloading Burnett on the Pirates. First they steal Pineda (Seattle wanted Ells from the Sox for him), now it looks like they they might dump Burnett on the Pirates. They sure have a way with the poorer teams.

[Bellhorn04]

How do you like those Yanks unloading Burnett on the Pirates. First they steal Pineda (Seattle wanted Ells from the Sox for him)' date=' now it looks like they they might dump Burnett on the Pirates. They sure have a way with the poorer teams.[/quote']

 

It's a dirty business but if you can take advantage of an organization like the Pirates you have to do it. We've done it too. We got Bay from the Pirates, they got Craig Hansen and Brandon Moss.

[ORS]

They also got Bryan Morris (meh) and Andy Laroche, who was the best prospect in that deal, from the Dodgers.

[User Name]

The luxury tax shouldn't matter to the Sox. They could afford a much larger payroll. It just shouldn't be a part of the equation.

 

I disagree with this, on principle. The luxury tax had never mattered to the Red Sox before, but the new CBA is much more severe on those who stay above the luxury tax. The Red Sox are not the only team you'll see scrambling to get under the tax in the next couple of years. In essence, staying above the cap would hamstring the Red Sox from spending more money on future FA's.

 

I understand that, as fans, we could care less about their bottom line and think they should just spend money, but that's not how it works.

[User Name]

How do you like those Yanks unloading Burnett on the Pirates. First they steal Pineda (Seattle wanted Ells from the Sox for him)' date=' now it looks like they they might dump Burnett on the Pirates. They sure have a way with the poorer teams.[/quote']

 

This is not a done deal. Speculation FTL.

[seabeachfred]

A700, people were freaking out and saying "the Sox are falling behind" 2 weeks into the offseason. It's just not a reasonable expectation to have major moves that early. It doesn't happen. Should he have had more done by Christmas, probably. However, what we are seeing this offseason is less a reflection of Ben being slow to move and more of a reflection of ownership being miserly. Letting Scutaro go because of $6M was dumb. Not signing a better SP just compounded the issue.

 

Don't act like all this negative posting is soothsaying. We're still hearing garbage about Varitek and Wakefield, but those predictions haven't come true. Why not mention that? You're not going to because your whole internet gimmick is to constantly pat yourself on the back, but overlook the times you've been wrong.

 

Everyone on here was in agreement about ownership needing to spend $$$ to get a decent SP. Clearly that didn't happen.

 

Offseasons evolve and take time to develop. Expecting a full roster by Thanksgiving is beyond ridiculous. The only pitcher they lost out on was Buerhle at that point.

 

The reason you're hearing "garbage" about Varitek and Wakefield is because both of them are still out there and potentially ready to come to Fort Myers---or maybe you didn't read what Lucchino said yesterday....WE ARE STILL WAITING ON V AND W. Why the hell are we waiting for them and why did Larry invite them to come to Fort Myers if they wanted to? Doesn't he have enough balls to tell them that the game is up, time for them to go, that they are not needed or wanted---by either us or any other team? Apparently not.

 

Time is awasting and all the bromides that it is early, that it takes time to put a roster together, that things will happen in their proper time, is a pile of ******** which you and others should have seen by now. WE DON'T HAVE T HAT NO.4 STARTER, WE DON'T HAVE A SHORTSTOP AND OUR BULLPEN IS STILL INCOMPLETE. You seem content to just accept that things needed weren't done and are willing to move on after being lied to and take for a ride by Pinocchio Lucchino and his cream puff assistant. Some of us are not.

 

If Varitek and Wakefield do NOT show up at Fort Myers and announce their retirement beforehand you have carte blanche to jump all over me for that, but you won't have to because I will have admitted I was wrong. However, I think both these guys are now totally devoid of pride and will come down, and if that happens expect a couple of I TOLD YOU SOS.

[User Name]

And whining on a daily basis is going to fix these perceived problems?

 

Also, the Red Sox do have a #4 starter. His name is Daniel Bard.

 

What exactly do you want for the BP? They have a battalion of dregs assembled. Some of them have to pan out.

 

Also, we do have a SS, his name is Mike Aviles. He may not be the optimal SS, but neither was Scutaro.

[mvp 78]

The bullpen is fine, especially if they get Oswalt and move Aceves back. Thry have a SS. It's not Scutaro, but they have enough bodies to plug in. Personally, I let Iglesias start and be happy with him hitting 225.

 

And to your ongoing banter about Wake and Tek, it's really up to them to hang their boots up. It'd be disrespectful to have a Tek and Wake appreciation day before they've announced their retirements. It'd be a slap in the face. Should they be invited to ST? Only if it's not in a player capacity.

[User Name]

The problem is that he's taking his own conjecture as fact. This is not meant to insult you btw Fred, but it's the truth.

 

Even while trying to get rid of Tek and Wake they need to do it as gently as possible because of the PR hit it would entail.

[iortiz]

It's clear that they do not want to spend this year. This team has already huge commitments and their baseball operations have been horrible in both leadership and financially. Some have said that this new CBA agreement is not attractive even for teams like NY and Bos. On the other hand, Still Ortiz move was a huge mistake IMO. They could use that money in a SP.

 

Beyond Ortiz move, IMO The only scenario that would make sense, would be, going like this and staying just below the LT. I wouldn't like it but at least it would be consistent in the way they have been executing this offseason. As pumpsie said, they need to clean up the mess that Theo and his crew left and try to put a better team in 2013-2014.

[FredLynn]

Thats not the way it was worded. If thats not what he meant (muggah) or what you mean, then choose your words better. When I call someone an idiot, its deserved.....the original post was deserving.

 

You may rest assured that I mean PERFORMANCE ON THE FIELD when we use colorful terms to describe the players. Since I do not know them personally I cannot judge what kind of ethics or intelligence they possess off the field. Likewise, YOU cannot judge whether or not Muggah or me are idiots because you do not know us personally. Therefore, your use of that term is inappropriate. Shall I just call you a sap?

 

Yeah, well I hate to break it to you, but I piss people off over here at times too because I am also critical of the Redsox......do you know why I do not post about it 50 times a day? Because nobody wants to hear it. Everyone around here knows what I think, there is no reason the say the same negative s*** over and over every single day.....and again, its not personal.....its the internet. You want to talk about thin skinned? You take the internet personal, thats thin skinned my friend.

 

Well, lah-de-dah. You can be critical too! Wonderful news! Look, you post what you like about the Sox or other teams here. There is a reason, however, that its common knowledge that posts that call other posters "idiots" are considered to be in bad form. You should know better. It has nothing to do with being "thin skinned"-if you attack me in that manner I can dish it out better than you can give it, if I choose to lower myself to your level. Every time you or anyone else is calling another poster an idiot or some other derogatory term in my mind that insult indicates that it is really YOU who is the idiot.

As I said to Emmz, I am not the father of anyone here (that I know of); I post my opinion about what constitutes decency and we all behave in the manner in which we see fit. Thats the way it will continue, and I will post just as often as I like. Got it?

 

On the actual topic, I hope to hell that Oswalt is coming to Boston......otherwise, they have some questions to answer about why their starting SS was traded. They said he was traded to make room for a pitcher.......so I hope that happens.

 

On the actual topic, if we are over the cap already, then, assuming there is a reasonable offer that could bring Oswalt here, it should be made. I don't remember anyone from the FO saying specifically that Scutaro was traded to make room for a pitcher however.

[FredLynn]

Yes' date=' but the Red Sox came into the 2012 offseason with payroll commitments that left very little room under the LT threshold, and regardless of how wealthy the team is, ownership does have a budget. So Cherington did have limited resources allocated to him.[/quote']

 

As you mentioned elsewhere, its likely that they are already over the cap. If so, why not make this a more competitive team by addressing its most glaring need?

[iortiz]

As you mentioned elsewhere' date=' [b']its likely that they are already over the cap. If so, why not make this a more competitive team by addressing its most glaring need?[/b]

 

Agree 100%

 

Seriously, if this were true, I would like to hear the answer.

[a700hitter]

A700, people were freaking out and saying "the Sox are falling behind" 2 weeks into the offseason. It's just not a reasonable expectation to have major moves that early. It doesn't happen. Should he have had more done by Christmas, probably. However, what we are seeing this offseason is less a reflection of Ben being slow to move and more of a reflection of ownership being miserly. Letting Scutaro go because of $6M was dumb. Not signing a better SP just compounded the issue.

 

Don't act like all this negative posting is soothisayng. We're still hearing garbage about Varitek and Wakefield, but those predictions haven't come true. Why not mention that? You're not going to because your whole internet gimmick is to constantly pat yourself on the back, but overlook the times you've been wrong.

 

Everyone on here was in agreement about ownership needing to spend $$$ to get a decent SP. Clearly that didn't happen.

 

Offseasons evolve and take time to develop. Expecting a full roster by Thanksgiving is beyond ridiculous. The only pitcher they lost out on was Buerhle at that point.

Where did you get this soothsaying thing from my post. I was recapping the off season and how it has developed or not developed to this point. Welcome to MVP's world of making s*** up.

[FredLynn]

And whining on a daily basis is going to fix these perceived problems?

 

Also, the Red Sox do have a #4 starter. His name is Daniel Bard.

 

What exactly do you want for the BP? They have a battalion of dregs assembled. Some of them have to pan out.

 

Also, we do have a SS, his name is Mike Aviles. He may not be the optimal SS, but neither was Scutaro.

 

Ummm...to state the obvious, Bard has never started a ML game. It is not clear that he will be able to make that transformation. As I recall, the Yankees tried it with a very good (at the time) reliever named Joba Chamberlain. How did that work out?

[User Name]

CJ Wilson, Alexis Ogando. How did those work out?

 

We can play the "everything will go wrong" game all you want. Fact is, he will be the #4 starter.

[a700hitter]

Ummm...to state the obvious' date=' Bard has never started a ML game. It is not clear that he will be able to make that transformation. As I recall, the Yankees tried it with a very good (at the time) reliever named Joba Chamberlain. How did that work out?[/quote']The move from pen to rotation ruined Joba and the move back and forth has had negative results on Hughes health too. This move with Bard is not a lock. He has the talent and the pitches to be a starter, but it has been quite sometime since he has been a starter. His body and mind have been highly trained to be successful in a very different role. If he was the 5th starter, it would not be such a big deal if the experiment doesn't work, but if he fails in the 4th slot with the 5h slot already a question, it could be a big problem.

[iortiz]

Ummm...to state the obvious' date=' Bard has never started a ML game. It is not clear that he will be able to make that transformation. As I recall, the Yankees tried it with a very good (at the time) reliever named Joba Chamberlain. How did that work out?[/quote']

 

Yup, the Red Sox do not have a proved/solid/legit #4 & #5 SPs. That has been the discussion all Offseason long. Of course, we all want that they (Bard and Aceves) perform as we all expect.

[FredLynn]

CJ Wilson, Alexis Ogando. How did those work out?

 

We can play the "everything will go wrong" game all you want. Fact is, he will be the #4 starter.

 

Conjecture.

The real fact is that he will be given a CHANCE to be the #4 starter.

[FredLynn]

Yup' date=' the Red Sox do not have a proved/solid/legit #4 & #5 SPs. That has been the discussion all season long. Of course, we all want that they (Bard and Aceves) perform as we all expect.[/quote']

 

I think that in the best of all worlds we get Oswalt to be our #4, use the best performing dreg to be #5 and keep the rest available for spot starts (along with Doubront), and move Bard and Aceves to the pen, which would then be a really really good bullpen.

[User Name]

Conjecture.

The real fact is that he will be given a CHANCE to be the #4 starter.

 

No it's not. Unless he absolutely bombs in ST, the #4 spot is his. What happened to "being able to read between the lines?" does that only apply when it helps your argument?

[mvp 78]

As you mentioned elsewhere' date=' its likely that they are already over the cap. If so, why not make this a more competitive team by addressing its most glaring need?[/quote']

 

Because they are cheap.

[iortiz]

I think that in the best of all worlds we get Oswalt to be our #4' date=' use the best performing dreg to be #5 and keep the rest available for spot starts (along with Doubront), and move Bard and Aceves to the pen, which would then be a really really good bullpen.[/quote']

 

Love this idea. The thing is that Oswalt signing is very uncertain.

[FredLynn]

No it's not. Unless he absolutely bombs in ST' date=' the #4 spot is his. What happened to "being able to read between the lines?" does that only apply when it helps your argument?[/quote']

 

Show me where is says he is our #4 SP. Everything I have read (and everything YOU have read too, whether you wish to admit it or not) says that he will be given a chance to be a SP. The job is not his until he earns it. Now I think he will do fine in that capacity, but I do not view it as a "given" that the job is his. I also like him in the pen better than as a SP if we get Oswalt.

[FredLynn]

Because they are cheap.

 

HAHAHA

Beware about bad-mouthing the FO here. The Pollyanna Police are watching you......

Hard to say that they are really THAT cheap any more, after spending all that money on Gonzalez and Crawford. Stupid, maybe, but not really overly cheap. The fact is that they do spend a ton of money. I wish they would spend a little more on Oswalt (again, only if we are already over the cap).

How do they rank among all the ML teams in terms of money spent on salaries? Pretty high, I think.

[mvp 78]

Some people urged patience and extolled Benny Boy's measured careful approach. They said it 's just Thanksgiving. No one is making major moves. Then it was' date=' it's only Christmas. There's plenty of time and plenty available options. Well,here we are at Truck Day, and we still don't have our pitching situation settled.[/quote']

 

"So I clearly was in the the right all along while all you other guys and gals are dickwad asshats."

 

That was what I was reading your underlying point as. If I was wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. (Some people can actually admit they don't know everything.)

[FredLynn]

Love this idea. The thing is that Oswalt signing is very uncertain.

 

I can't take credit for it: I think Paladios came up with it first.