2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[jung]

I don't have much to add to this discussion of front office criticism. It is worth however worth noting that the FO perspective is not the same as the fan perspective and there is a good bit of conflict that arrises from that very simple fact. Fans tend to downplay the business aspects of owning and running a team and then have even less patience with the fact that there is a difference between owning and running the business operations end of a team.

 

In truth whenever I comment one way or the other I try to at least give the Sox organization in its various aspects some effort in trying to understand their perspective but at the end of the day it is not the same thing and it will never be the same thing.

 

So I would suggest that "fans" just give each other a break because it is not an issue of knowing better anyway. It is an issue of knowing different and that is always going to be there.

[a700hitter]

I don't have much to add to this discussion of front office criticism. It is worth however worth noting that the FO perspective is not the same as the fan perspective and there is a good bit of conflict that arrises from that very simple fact. Fans tend to downplay the business aspects of owning and running a team and then have even less patience with the fact that there is a difference between owning and running the business operations end of a team.

 

In truth whenever I comment one way or the other I try to at least give the Sox organization in its various aspects some effort in trying to understand their perspective but at the end of the day it is not the same thing and it will never be the same thing.

 

So I would suggest that "fans" just give each other a break because it is not an issue of knowing better anyway. It is an issue of knowing different and that is always going to be there.

Excellent point.

[a700hitter]

I don't get that sense but if you do then fair enough.

I would just like to go on record that i do not spout my opinion as fact, but rather as truth. That is truly my opinion. :lol:

[seabeachfred]

Peter Abraham:

 

 

 

As MVP78 said, a 25-man roster is not constructed overnight. Bitching over and over about the same thing (and i actually agree with you on most things Fred, it's just the whiny presentation) is not going to make it go any faster.

 

Must be the Santa Ana winds we've had out here the past ten days because I've been one irritable and pissed off dude. So says my wife: :harhar::harhar::harhar::harhar:

 

I noticed that the Rockies signed Cuddyer and Willingham is gone to the Twins so it looks like we are crap out of luck for that RH hitting outfielder I think we need so badly. I think the injury prone and gimpy Carlos Beltran is still out there but the price may be too high. I just hope the team doesn't resign team dunce Darnell McDonald and try to pass that off as our RH hitting alternate. When he isn't misplaying a ball in the outfield he is getting picked off first base. User, are there any other RH outfielders out there that are left? I still insist we need another bat from that side of the plate, especially now that Lavarnway is getting screwed by the team.

[seabeachfred]

When people start with the "ifs"' date=' I get nervous, because I know how that ends up. After the third "if", I usually can't control myself and I blurt out, "If, if, if! And 'if' the Queen had balls, she'd be the King!" ;):lol:[/quote']

 

Bulls eye 700 :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Of course, you're preaching to the choir. I think most of us here would second that. However, right now we seem to be a team with a big bunch of IFS!!!!!!

[seabeachfred]

The Angels fans will not complain if they end up in the World Series in 2012' date=' and we wouldn't be complaining either if the Sox performed as billed and went to the WS in 2011. Quite the opposite happened. There was a giant sucking sound heard all over New England that was the 2011 Sox going down the drain at a record pace in September. As fans, we know that this team need to get better and we have been weakened in the off season thus far.[/quote']

 

And yet 700, to mention what you say in your last sentence sets VA and a few others climbing angrily off the walls. But those are facts. We need to get better and we have been weakened in the off season.....so far. MVP and others say there is still time, and there is, but we have a right to express the fear that a lot of time has passed and some players who would have looked good in Red Sox red are now off the board. Yes, again, there is still time but it does us no good if we don't use if efficiently, and losing out on Willingham and then Cuddyer doesn't sound to me like we are making progress in one critical area. WE NEED ANOTHER RH HITTER IN THAT LINEUP OF OURS.

[Elktonnick]

And yet 700' date=' to mention what you say in your last sentence sets VA and a few others climbing angrily off the walls. But those are facts. We need to get better and we have been weakened in the off season.....so far. MVP and others say there is still time, and there is, but we have a right to express the fear that a lot of time has passed and some players who would have looked good in Red Sox red are now off the board. Yes, again, there is still time but it does us no good if we don't use if efficiently, and losing out on Willingham and then Cuddyer doesn't sound to me like we are making progress in one critical area. WE NEED ANOTHER RH HITTER IN THAT LINEUP OF OURS.[/quote']

 

Fred I never thought that Ben et al were going to solve the RF/RH bat issue through free agency based on their earlier comments. I've always thought that they believed the only route to that end was through trades. Quite frankly given the scope of the pitching probelm, I'd prefer them squaring away the rotation and bullpen before tackling the RF/RH issue. I know we are too left handed but first things first in my mind.

[seabeachfred]

Sooner or later Elk we have to come to grips with the fact that we are very vulnerable to left handed pitchers. Gonzales, Ellsbury, Kalish, Crawford and Ortiz hit from the left side, and Kalish, Crawford and until this season Ortiz had tons of troubles with southpaws. Satalamacchia switch hits but is more effective from the left side...and that leaves us only Pedroia, Youkilis and Scutaro to hit from the right side in a park that is tailor made for left handers. Now there is some talk about trading Youkilis. What then, who plays third for us? Do we put another lefty in that lineup? I agree pitching comes first Elk but we still haven't done anything in that critical area....no starting pitcher and no closer. Like you, I'm starting to believe that we are not going to spend any money this winter and will depend on trades and since the rest of baseball knows that is it any wonder that people we hear we're interested in are going to cost us an arm and a leg. We've boxed ourselves into a corner.

[Elktonnick]

Sooner or later Elk we have to come to grips with the fact that we are very vulnerable to left handed pitchers. Gonzales' date=' Ellsbury, Kalish, Crawford and Ortiz hit from the left side, and Kalish, Crawford and until this season Ortiz had tons of troubles with southpaws. Satalamacchia switch hits but is more effective from the left side...and that leaves us only Pedroia, Youkilis and Scutaro to hit from the right side in a park that is tailor made for left handers. Now there is some talk about trading Youkilis. What then, who plays third for us? Do we put another lefty in that lineup? I agree pitching comes first Elk but we still haven't done anything in that critical area....no starting pitcher and no closer. Like you, I'm starting to believe that we are not going to spend any money this winter and will depend on trades and since the rest of baseball knows that is it any wonder that people we hear we're interested in are going to cost us an arm and a leg. We've boxed ourselves into a corner.[/quote']

 

No doubt about that we've boxed ourselves in. You know my feelings about Ben. I hope we're wrong but I don't think he has the agility ( or the authority) to carry out the kind of multi player deals needed to fill all our holes.

[WhiskeyBreath]

I've been tired of this whole "the lineup is too left handed, we need a RH bat" talk for a long time now. Would it be nice to have a good RH bat playing RF for this team? Obviously, but I see that as a big luxury they do not need right now.

 

Yes, there are a lot of LHH in this lineup. The good thing is only Crawford is terrible against LHP. Ortiz was great against them last year but I see that as a bit of a fluke so I can see him regressing against lefties a lot next year so add him to that list too. Shoppach should be a nice boost to the lineup when a lefty is on the mound because Salty is garbage vs them.

 

It's all about the pitching right now.

[Spitball]

I've been tired of this whole "the lineup is too left handed, we need a RH bat" talk for a long time now. Would it be nice to have a good RH bat playing RF for this team? Obviously, but I see that as a big luxury they do not need right now.

 

Yes, there are a lot of LHH in this lineup. The good thing is only Crawford is terrible against LHP. Ortiz was great against them last year but I see that as a bit of a fluke so I can see him regressing against lefties a lot next year so add him to that list too. Shoppach should be a nice boost to the lineup when a lefty is on the mound because Salty is garbage vs them.

 

It's all about the pitching right now.

 

Right. The primary need is pitching.

 

As for the line-up being too left-handed, I don't believe it is nearly the issue some believe. At least two thirds of the pitchers in the league are right handed, so if anything, a heavily lefthanded order presents a problem for a majority of pitchers in the league.

[User Name]

Cherington On Madson, Saunders, Melancon, Darvish

By Mark Polishuk [December 16 at 6:08pm CST]

 

Red Sox GM Ben Cherington appeared on MLB Network Radio's "Inside Pitch" with Jim Bowden this afternoon to speak about the club's offseason plans. Alex Speier of WEEI.com has a partial transcript of the interview and here are some highlights...

 

Cherington said the Red Sox are looking for rotation depth. The team is satisfied with Jon Lester, Josh Beckett and Clay Buchholz at the top of the rotation so the Sox "don’t feel like we’re backed into a place where we need to break the door in for a top-of-the-rotation starter," Cherington said. "If we can do that and it makes sense for us, then we’ll certainly do that. We’re always looking for ways to do that. But...we’re in good position there and can kind of let the market come to us a little bit."

 

To this end, Cherington said "the timing wasn’t right" for the team to bid on Yu Darvish.

 

Cherington said he had been in contact with Ryan Madson and Joe Saunders' representatives "as well as several other free agent options."

 

The newly-acquired Mark Melancon projects as Boston's closer, at least for now. “As I told Mark on the phone when I talked to him, we believe he can close....If the season opened tomorrow, that’s what he’d be doing,” Cherington said. This, of course, could easily change should the Red Sox sign Madson or trade for Andrew Bailey.

 

The Red Sox have interviewed Brad Arnsberg and Neil Allen about the vacant pitching coach job and also talked to "several" other candidates.

 

 

So Madson is still a very real possibility.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Sooner or later Elk we have to come to grips with the fact that we are very vulnerable to left handed pitchers. Gonzales' date=' Ellsbury, Kalish, Crawford and Ortiz hit from the left side, and Kalish, Crawford and until this season Ortiz had tons of troubles with southpaws. Satalamacchia switch hits but is more effective from the left side...and that leaves us only Pedroia, Youkilis and Scutaro to hit from the right side in a park that is tailor made for left handers. Now there is some talk about trading Youkilis. What then, who plays third for us? Do we put another lefty in that lineup? I agree pitching comes first Elk but we still haven't done anything in that critical area....no starting pitcher and no closer. Like you, I'm starting to believe that we are not going to spend any money this winter and will depend on trades and since the rest of baseball knows that is it any wonder that people we hear we're interested in are going to cost us an arm and a leg. We've boxed ourselves into a corner.[/quote']

 

Vs. LHP:

 

Ellsbury: .284/.348/.492

Gonzalez: .321/.387/.400

Ortiz: .329/.423/.566

Crawford: .195/.249/.317

Pedroia: .358/.463/.547

Youkilis: .311/.426/.561

Scutaro: .303/.353/.422

Aviles: .318/.348/.576

Shoppach: .241/.344/.444

 

I mean, I just don't see the problem here. Last year, this team hit .281/.354/.453 vs LHP and was 2nd in the MLB in OPS (.807) vs LHP.

 

I'm sorry. Was Papelbon an amazing RHH vs LHP? I don't see how this season is going to be much different.

 

Oh, and did I mention that last year we were 2nd in MLB in OPS with a RF combo of Drew/Reddick/McDonald?

 

Vs LHP:

 

Drew: .167/.259/.292

Reddick: .275/.341/.425

McDonald: .260/.333/.471

 

It's not like we've just lost some power hitting, RHH RF who were going to struggle to replace.

 

Why do we need to find a new RF? Kalish or Reddick will do just fine, especially if Aviles is out there platooning as well.

 

On the list of priorities for this offseason, finding a new RF is down there with finding new shoelaces for Caleb Clay.

[mvp 78]

I'm not in the least worried about the offense. Definitely need pitching depth, but it would be stupid to restock the A's farm system with what Beane is asking dor Gio. Gio isn't worth that haul.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I'm not in the least worried about the offense. Definitely need pitching depth' date=' but it would be stupid to restock the A's farm system with what Beane is asking dor Gio. Gio isn't worth that haul.[/quote']

 

Agree. I'll say it again. If we're going to pay that much for a SP, throw in 1 more prospect and get Garza.

[User Name]

Or sign a couple pitchers and keep your prospects. That is option C, and it's my favorite.

[mvp 78]

Or sign a couple pitchers and keep your prospects. That is option C' date=' and it's my favorite.[/quote']

 

Especially if the trade options aren't worth the talent given up. I'm not a huge Garza fan.

[User Name]

You mean you don't like pitchers who have a higher spit count than pitch count on a game to game basis?

[redsoxfan3]

This is kind of off-topic, but I didn't want to start a whole new thread about it, but is anyone going to the yard sale at City of Palms Park tomorrow? I know a lot of you guys aren't from Fort Myers, but if you are, I strongly recommend you make the trip over. There are some good deals. I will update everyone with what I get.

[seabeachfred]

I can understand why some of you guys don't like Garza but the guy did pitch in the tough AL East and I thought he held his own pretty well, and, let's face it guys, he did pretty well against us. I always like to have new pitchers who join the Red Sox to have some experience pitching in our division. The one guy I do NOT want to trade though is Ryan Lavarnway. In my opinion he is the next great young Red Sox right handed power hitter and we all know we haven't been very successful in developing power hitters in our farm system from either side of the plate. I just wish we hadn't resigned Ortiz so Ryan could swing right into the DH job. As it is he is going to waste a whole year of his career getting "seasoning" he doesn't really need. I just hope he doesn't stagnate like some of the other "prospects" like Anderson, Bowden, Doubrant and others have.

[cljunior]

If Ortiz only signs for a year with arbitration its probably worth the risk don't you think? Pretty good season and probably not too much of a fluke in 2011. Hard pressed to see Lavarnway producing those figures and if he doesn't get a gig as catcher, probably better off bettering his defensive skills in AAA, which he wouldn't get playing DH.

 

Signing Shoppach short term probably means they think he'll be ready soon. I hope they don't trade him either!

[mvp 78]

Lavarnway needs more time to develop his catching skills. He won't do that playing every fifth game. His hitting is there, but Ortiz's hitting is far superior. If you're pissed about missing the playoffs last uear, you should prefer Ortiz crushing it at DH than inserting a rookie with minimal experience. If Lavarnway has a respectible game #162, there would have been a one game playoff. He wilted under the pressure.

[Bellhorn04]

I can understand why some of you guys don't like Garza but the guy did pitch in the tough AL East and I thought he held his own pretty well' date=' and, let's face it guys, he did pretty well against us. I always like to have new pitchers who join the Red Sox to have some experience pitching in our division. The one guy I do NOT want to trade though is Ryan Lavarnway.[/quote']

 

I concur, I don't like Garza but I think he would be a good pitcher for us and he's proven he can handle the AL East. And no they absolutely can't trade Lavarnway.

 

Why are the Cubs looking to trade Garza anyway? This is the new Cubs gunning for a World Series right? Are they that deep in pitching?

[Muggah]

I concur, I don't like Garza but I think he would be a good pitcher for us and he's proven he can handle the AL East. And no they absolutely can't trade Lavarnway.

 

Why are the Cubs looking to trade Garza anyway? This is the new Cubs gunning for a World Series right? Are they that deep in pitching?

 

Zambrano says he's in a better frame of mind and the best shape since his rookie year. That should help.

 

Why do I break into a big smile every time I think about Blunder having to deal with this guy? Talk about two guys who deserve each other.

[SoxSport]

Right. The primary need is pitching.

 

As for the line-up being too left-handed, I don't believe it is nearly the issue some believe. At least two thirds of the pitchers in the league are right handed, so if anything, a heavily lefthanded order presents a problem for a majority of pitchers in the league.

 

 

And the Sox will see all of those lefthanders--at every opportunity.

[Palodios]

And the Sox will see all of those lefthanders--at every opportunity.

 

Please stop trolling.

 

 

Vs. LHP:

 

Ellsbury: .284/.348/.492

Gonzalez: .321/.387/.400

Ortiz: .329/.423/.566

Crawford: .195/.249/.317

Pedroia: .358/.463/.547

Youkilis: .311/.426/.561

Scutaro: .303/.353/.422

Aviles: .318/.348/.576

Shoppach: .241/.344/.444

 

I mean, I just don't see the problem here. Last year, this team hit .281/.354/.453 vs LHP and was 2nd in the MLB in OPS (.807) vs LHP.

 

I'm sorry. Was Papelbon an amazing RHH vs LHP? I don't see how this season is going to be much different.

 

Oh, and did I mention that last year we were 2nd in MLB in OPS with a RF combo of Drew/Reddick/McDonald?

 

Vs LHP:

 

Drew: .167/.259/.292

Reddick: .275/.341/.425

McDonald: .260/.333/.471

 

It's not like we've just lost some power hitting, RHH RF who were going to struggle to replace.

 

Why do we need to find a new RF? Kalish or Reddick will do just fine, especially if Aviles is out there platooning as well.

 

On the list of priorities for this offseason, finding a new RF is down there with finding new shoelaces for Caleb Clay.

[iortiz]

Well here's the thing - Beane is asking for the world in return for Gio. So a package that would get Gio Gonzalez would be something like Reddick + Ranaudo + Middlebrooks.

 

If we just added Lavarnway to that, a package of Ranaudo + Middlebrooks + Lavarnway + Reddick would probably net us Garza. Throw in "Theo's compensation" to please the Sox fans (they think we got something out of it) and the Cubs fans (they never saw a prospect leave their farm system, and added 4 solid prospects to it), and you've given the Sox an elite 1-4, solved the Theo's Compensation debacle, and kept Bard in the bullpen where he can close out games with Melancon as the set up man.

 

.... And who would be the #5, Aceves? Miller? Doubront?

 

Pfffff a lot of good prospects but you have to give up something like that if you want Gio or Garza, No doubt.

 

If they grab one of those and land Beltran, I'll feel very comftable expecting another cuple of arms for the BP.

 

Beckett

Lester

Buch

Gio/Garza

Aceves

 

Closer Bard

Setup Melancon

Morales

Albers

Doubront

Miller

BP1

BP2

 

Btw why in the hell didn't we sign Wheleer?

 

Ells

Peddy

Gonzo

Beltran

Youk

Ortiz

Salty

Scutaro

Crawford

 

How does it sound? If true I'll clap Benny Boy.

[a700hitter]

.... And who would be the #5, Aceves? Miller? Doubront?

 

Pfffff a lot of good prospects but you have to give up something like that if you want Gio or Garza, No doubt.

 

If they grab one of those and land Beltran, I'll feel very comftable expecting another cuple of arms for the BP.

 

Beckett

Lester

Buch

Gio/Garza

Aceves

 

Closer Bard

Setup Melancon

Morales

Albers

Doubront

Miller

BP1

BP2

 

Btw why in the hell didn't we sign Wheleer?

 

Ells

Peddy

Gonzo

Beltran

Youk

Ortiz

Salty

Scutaro

Crawford

 

How does it sound? If true I would clap Benny Boy.

This basically my Christmas list. It seems pretty easy for Ben to get there, but he should probably lock down Beltran first. You really only have one open bullpen spot, because we still have Jenks. We have to hope that he goes all out in his contract year.

[Spitball]

I concur' date=' I don't like Garza but I think he would be a good pitcher for us and he's proven he can handle the AL East. And no they absolutely can't trade Lavarnway.[/quote']

 

I am leery dealing for Garza at this point. First, he put up good numbers in the NL. His K rate had fallen to 6.6 per 9 innings in 2010 in the AL. The next year, in the National League, his K rate jumps to a career best 9.0 per 9.

 

Also, this is Epstein. He would love to screw the Sox. I can see him enticing the Yankees into a bidding war for the services of this guy.

 

Why are the Cubs looking to trade Garza anyway? This is the new Cubs gunning for a World Series right? Are they that deep in pitching?

 

Good question. Perhaps they want to capitalize on what they feel was a career year. Perhaps they know teams will be willing to overpay in a pitching poor market.

 

I agree with those who would rather not deplete the farm by overpaying for a questionable talent.

 

I am warming to the Bard Aceves to the rotation idea and building the bullpen. Ordinarily, I'd say it is a difficult/unpredictable task to build a bullpen, but this is a bad year to build a rotation.

[a700hitter]

I am leery dealing for Garza at this point. First, he put up good numbers in the NL. His K rate had fallen to 6.6 per 9 innings in 2010 in the AL. The next year, in the National League, his K rate jumps to a career best 9.0 per 9.

 

Also, this is Epstein. He would love to screw the Sox. I can see him enticing the Yankees into a bidding war for the services of this guy. .

I agree with you on this. I'd take Garza if we got a sweet deal on him as part of the Theo compensation. That ain't gonna happen. I don't trust that Garza has been having some arm woes. I'd rather them pursue Gio G who I think has more value.