Wakefield and the 2010 season.

[Dipre]

it would have helped. if they were going with a 3 man rotation and having Buchholz in the bullpen could have helped. Were the Sox going with a three pitcher rotation? i forgot.

 

To get Halladay, the Sox would have had to give up Bucholz.

[bsox0407]

To get Halladay' date=' the Sox would have had to give up Bucholz.[/quote']

 

I fail. damn i forgot about that one to.

[a700hitter]

Clint, honest question to end the debate.

 

Do you think that, with Hallady:

 

A) The Sox overtake the Yanks and run over the Twins.

 

B ) The Sox beat the Angels and make the ALCS anyway.

 

State your reasons for either answer.

It could have been A or B. I think he could have given the Sox a chance at either. One player doesn't make a bad team a great team, but the 2009 Sox were a very good team. When we speculate about how Halladay would have changed the Red Sox season, we can't assume that that everything else would have stayed static. I'm not saying that his presence would improve the teams' offense, but his presence could have affected games beyond those that he pitched.

 

His ability to go deep into games could have helped give the bullpen a shot in the arm at a time when it was running on fumes. I don't think it is a huge stretch to think Halladay could have won three games against the Yankees in the second half. That by itself would put the Sox 2 games back of the Yankees. I don't think its a stretch to think that Halladay or a more refreshed Pen could have picked up an additional couple or 3 games the rest of the way.

 

If we didn't have enough to catch the Yankees, it's not a stretch to think that Halladay could have won game 3 against the Angels. Who knows what happens in game 4 at Fenway and game 5 with Lester and Beckett on the hill in those games. I think you would have to give the Sox a shot.

 

Schilling used to talk about how the execution or 4 or 5 pitches in the course of 120 pitches usually was the difference between winning and losing. It doesn't take a lot to change the dynamic of a game to account for the difference between a win and a loss. Similarly, with a playoff team, it's not hard for me to believe that the presence of Halladay could have made a difference to the Red Sox season.

[Dipre]

My problem is the amount of could and would in your statement.

 

I don't think the Sox were a good enough team to overcome the Angels with or without Halladay.

[Gom]

My problem is the amount of could and would in your statement.

 

I don't think the Sox were a good enough team to overcome the Angels with or without Halladay.

 

Agreed. Unless Halladay swung a good stick, you would have been out in 4. My opinion, anyways.

[a700hitter]

My problem is the amount of could and would in your statement.

 

I don't think the Sox were a good enough team to overcome the Angels with or without Halladay.

There has to be "could" or "would" in the statement, because it didn't happen. We are left to speculate. Nothing can be stated with certainty when speculating. The FO must have believed that he or Felix could have helped put them over the top, because they kicked the tires pretty hard on both. They must have seen some possibilities. The 2009 Sox were a pretty good team. I don't find it difficult to believe that the acquisition of a CY Young caliber pitcher along with the acquisition of VMart would have pushed them to the next level. I think if VMart hadn't been acquired there was a real possibility that the Sox might have fallen out of a playoff spot. He was critical to the offense in the second half.

[Dipre]

There has to be "could" or "would" in the statement' date=' because it didn't happen. We are left to speculate. Nothing can be stated with certainty when speculating. The FO must have believed that he or Felix could have helped put them over the top, because they kicked the tires pretty hard on both. They must have seen some possibilities. The 2009 Sox were a pretty good team. I don't find it difficult to believe that the acquisition of a CY Young caliber pitcher along with the acquisition of VMart would have pushed them to the next level. I think if VMart hadn't been acquired there was a real possibility that the Sox might have fallen out of a playoff spot. He was critical to the offense in the second half.[/quote']

 

The Sox also kicked the tires on A-Gon and Hanley. They'll kick the tires on anything that can improve the team.

 

But we're talking about a team that scored 1 run the first two games. Not even a combination of Halladay and Felix can win with such run support.

[Gom]

There has to be "could" or "would" in the statement' date=' because it didn't happen. We are left to speculate. Nothing can be stated with certainty when speculating. The FO must have believed that he or Felix could have helped put them over the top, because they kicked the tires pretty hard on both. They must have seen some possibilities. The 2009 Sox were a pretty good team. I don't find it difficult to believe that the acquisition of a CY Young caliber pitcher along with the acquisition of VMart would have pushed them to the next level. I think if VMart hadn't been acquired there was a real possibility that the Sox might have fallen out of a playoff spot. He was critical to the offense in the second half.[/quote']

 

I think you're way off base on Felix. It makes NO sense for them to give him up. None. Zero.

 

If I was a GM, I'd always listen...but there is no one that the Red Sox have...or pretty much anyone has...that I would give Felix up for. He's under control for forever, he's younger than pretty much any prospect you'll get, and he's probably the Cy Young runner-up.

 

Theo wasted his time pursuing an impossible deal and let Cliff Lee get away.

[Dipre]

I think you're way off base on Felix. It makes NO sense for them to give him up. None. Zero.

 

If I was a GM, I'd always listen...but there is no one that the Red Sox have...or pretty much anyone has...that I would give Felix up for. He's under control for forever, he's younger than pretty much any prospect you'll get, and he's probably the Cy Young runner-up.

 

Theo wasted his time pursuing an impossible deal and let Cliff Lee get away.

 

I don't think Theo could have pulled off the Lee+ V-Mart deal some people speak so fondly about.

[a700hitter]

The Sox also kicked the tires on A-Gon and Hanley. They'll kick the tires on anything that can improve the team.

 

But we're talking about a team that scored 1 run the first two games. Not even a combination of Halladay and Felix can win with such run support.

I think there would have been a very strong possibility that things could have ended very differently if we had landed a combination of Halladay and Felix. That would have been huge. You must not have much of an imagination if you can't see how that could have changed things. We would have played the little league team from Minnesota instead of the Angels in round 1.

[a700hitter]

I think you're way off base on Felix. It makes NO sense for them to give him up. None. Zero.

 

If I was a GM, I'd always listen...but there is no one that the Red Sox have...or pretty much anyone has...that I would give Felix up for. He's under control for forever, he's younger than pretty much any prospect you'll get, and he's probably the Cy Young runner-up.

 

Theo wasted his time pursuing an impossible deal and let Cliff Lee get away.

I think you are right that the missed opportunity was Lee.

[Dipre]

I think there would have been a very strong possibility that things could have ended very differently if we had landed a combination of Halladay and Felix. That would have been huge. You must not have much of an imagination if you can't see how that could have changed things. We would have played the little league team from Minnesota instead of the Angels in round 1.

 

I meant Halladay and Felix combined as one guy.

 

Who lacks imagination?

[Dipre]

I think you are right that the missed opportunity was Lee.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

Present the package that would have netted both.

 

And present the evidence that shows that Phillie had not already tied up negotiations for Lee and Theo "missed" on Lee.

[a700hitter]

I don't think Theo could have pulled off the Lee+ V-Mart deal some people speak so fondly about.

We've been down this road before. I say we get Lee for Buchholz. You say I am nuts for wanting to trade Buchholz. I disagree. I'd rather have Lee. You say that I'm nuts. There we just saved repeating the same argument that we had during the World Series after Lee dominated the yanks in game 1.

[Dipre]

We've been down this road before. I say we get Lee for Buchholz. You say I am nuts for wanting to trade Buchholz. I disagree. I'd rather have Lee. You say that I'm nuts. There we just saved repeating the same argument that we had during the World Series after Lee dominated the yanks in game 1.

 

You "say" we get Lee for Buch.

 

You have no evidence to back up the claim that the possibility was not examined and a deal with the Phillies was already being finalized by the time Theo entered discussions for V-Mart.

[a700hitter]

You "say" we get Lee for Buch.

 

You have no evidence to back up the claim that the possibility was not examined and a deal with the Phillies was already being finalized by the time Theo entered discussions for V-Mart.

Jeesh, your memory is terrible. When we argued about this a couple of weeks ago, I said that we could have gotten Lee for Buchholz + other prospects. Buchholz would have been the centerpiece. The Phillies did not give up a boat load of talent to get Lee. The Sox could have competed with their package. Are you changing your argument now? The last time you were insulting me for wanting to trade Buchholz in the package. Now, are you arguing that Buchholz + couldn't have done the trick?

[Dipre]

Jeesh' date=' your memory is terrible. When we argued about this a couple of weeks ago, I said that we could have gotten Lee for Buchholz + other prospects. Buchholz would have been the centerpiece. The Phillies did not give up a boat load of talent to get Lee. The Sox could have competed with their package. Are you changing your argument now? The last time you were insulting me for wanting to trade Buchholz in the package. Now, are you arguing that Buchholz + couldn't have done the trick?[/quote']

 

No.

 

I don't trade Bucholz.

 

But i still think it's completely ridiculous how you can assure Theo could have gotten that deal done without any evidence to support your claim. (No insult intended).

[bsox0407]

Jeesh' date=' your memory is terrible. When we argued about this a couple of weeks ago, I said that we could have gotten Lee for Buchholz + other prospects. Buchholz would have been the centerpiece. The Phillies did not give up a boat load of talent to get Lee. The Sox could have competed with their package. Are you changing your argument now? The last time you were insulting me for wanting to trade Buchholz in the package. Now, are you arguing that Buchholz + couldn't have done the trick?[/quote']

 

the Phillies gave up a prospect who was in the top 10 in their prospects. Jason Knapp

[bsox0407]

http://www.reclinergm.com/phillies-top-20-prospects-mid-season-2009/

 

He is number 4 at the midseason report.

 

39 in MLB's top prospects.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090731&content_id=6161780&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

[a700hitter]

No.

 

I don't trade Bucholz.

 

But i still think it's completely ridiculous how you can assure Theo could have gotten that deal done without any evidence to support your claim. (No insult intended).

The evidence that we do have is that we have equal or better prospects to what Phillie offered. That's it. The evidence is that a package including Buchholz plus other prospects would have been competitive with the Phillie package. The evidence is that you think giving up Buchholz would have been too much. Are you saying that the Indian GM would not be as familiar as you are regarding Buchholz's value and potential? Are you saying that the Indian GM is a dupe? Is that your argument? Or is your argument that the Sox never attempted to get Lee? If that is a fact, then that was a mistake. Lee should have been on their short list of trade targets.

[a700hitter]

the Phillies gave up a prospect who was in the top 10 in their prospects. Jason Knapp

He is in A ball.

[Dipre]

The evidence that we do have is that we have equal or better prospects to what Phillie offered. That's it. The evidence is that a package including Buchholz plus other prospects would have been competitive with the Phillie package. The evidence is that you think giving up Buchholz would have been too much. Are you saying that the Indian GM would not be as familiar as you are regarding Buchholz's value and potential? Are you saying that the Indian GM is a dupe? Is that your argument? Or is your argument that the Sox never attempted to get Lee? If that is a fact' date=' then that was a mistake. Lee should have been on their short list of trade targets.[/quote']

 

What about the timeline?

 

What about the interest from Cleveland? What if Cleveland wanted some of the Phillie prospects specifically?

 

You need two to tango.

[bsox0407]

He is in A ball.

 

Does it in fact say that he is ranked higher than michael bowden or Ryan Westmoreland.

[The_Destroyah]

So you're sure Halladay would have held down the Angels lineup and won the game?

 

Ok then, guess i'm wrong.

 

I gotta get me one of those crystal balls as well.

 

thats exactly my point, we don't know one way or the other, personally Im not pissed about Theo not getting Halladay, Im just stating we honestly don't know what would have happened one way or the other.

[Dipre]

thats exactly my point' date=' we don't know one way or the other, personally Im not pissed about Theo not getting Halladay, Im just stating we honestly don't know what would have happened one way or the other.[/quote']

 

It's much more likely we still lose than we win.

 

The Sox simply didn't show up for that series.

[example1]

As far as I know, the Red Sox offered a lot to Toronto for Roy Halladay and Ricciardi was hesitant to deal within the division and turned down deals that included Buchholz--which is insane. One reason among many that he lost his job.

[a700hitter]

thats exactly my point' date=' we don't know one way or the other, personally Im not pissed about Theo not getting Halladay, Im just stating we honestly don't know what would have happened one way or the other.[/quote']You are right that we could never know with certainty how things would have turned out with Halladay, but we are certain about one thing. The 2009 Red Sox team without him exited in the first round of the playoffs. Adding a Cy Young candidate rarely makes a team worse, so we are left to speculate how much better he could have made us.

[a700hitter]

As far as I know' date=' the Red Sox offered a lot to Toronto for Roy Halladay and Ricciardi was hesitant to deal within the division and turned down deals that included Buchholz--which is insane. One reason among many that he lost his job.[/quote']Agreed. He should have taken the deal. They will not come close to getting a ML ready pitcher like Buchholz this off-season.

[a700hitter]

It's much more likely we still lose than we win.

 

The Sox simply didn't show up for that series.

They didn't show up for the first 3 games and the first 8 innings of game 4 of the 2004 ALCS either.

[Dipre]

They didn't show up for the first 3 games and the first 8 innings of game 4 of the 2004 ALCS either.

 

You mean the team that had one of the best offenses in recent history and Pedro Martinez and Curt Schilling headlining the rotation?

 

Well sure.