Wakefield and the 2010 season.

[a700hitter]

You mean the team that had one of the best offenses in recent history and Pedro Martinez and Curt Schilling headlining the rotation?

 

Well sure.

They were practically helpless against the immortal Jon Leiber in 2 games. The point is that you don't know if the 2009 offense would have put up some runs if there was a game 4 or 5 or an ALCS. Pedroia, VMart, Bay, Drew and Ortiz are not chopped liver.

[Dipre]

They were practically helpless against the immortal Jon Leiber in 2 games. The point is that you don't know if the 2009 offense would have put up some runs if there was a game 4 or 5 or an ALCS. Pedroia' date=' VMart, Bay, Drew and Ortiz are not chopped liver.[/quote']

 

At home, no. On the road, for some reason, this offense bordered on pathetic except for Bay, Drew and V-Mart.

[example1]

Agreed. He should have taken the deal. They will not come close to getting a ML ready pitcher like Buchholz this off-season.

 

They shouldn't but I could see Buchholz being the difference between the Sox getting him and not getting him, which means he might be included. At the same time, if Toronto is reasonable and the Sox really don't want to give Buchholz up (and they shouldn't, IMO) then a deal with other prospects should work too.

[TheKilo]

Can't wait til a700 is pimping Buchholz in July next season when he's having a Lester-2008 type season.

[Dipre]

Can't wait til a700 is pimping Buchholz in July next season when he's having a Lester-2008 type season.

 

I'm keeping this little post hidden away somewhere in case that happens.

[example1]

Can't wait til a700 is pimping Buchholz in July next season when he's having a Lester-2008 type season.

 

I think it is entirely within the realm of possibility that by 2012 Lester and Buchholz are the best one-two punch in the American League. Buchholz' stuff has been the more highly touted, but Lester's performance has been nothing short of All-Star caliber the past two seasons on the whole. Keep Beckett in that group with Matsuzaka and this team would be really good... with or without Wakefield playing (*a shout-out to the thread topic).

 

I hope that eventually Buchholz puts it together like his video-game stuff would indicate he can. He looked like an entirely different pitcher last year from 2007 and 2008. He pitched to contact, he threw aggressive strikes and he let hitters make outs against him instead of pussyfooting around for the K. That seems like more of a mental shift than anything, and I imagine him maturing a lot over the next few years until he's ready to be an anchor in the staff.

[TheMino007]

Last year Buccholz made great strides in his developement. I think him having the confidence knowing that his spot is cemented in the starting rotation next year (wherever he plays) will give him a lot of confidence. Add to that he is coming off a strong second half of last season, he should have all the confidence in the world of his ability. Since Clay still seems to be a guy who is effected by his confidence or lack there of at times (he is gonna have to learn to get rid of that in the future in order to be a successfull pitcher, he can't be ratteled by one bad inninng and then have it snowball into stretches of bad starts) he should be pitching well to start next year. I still think the Sox should still invest in a legit number three just in case, but there is no reason why Clay shouldn't be anything less than a great number 4 option next year.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think Clay has periods of flat out dominance mixed in with spells of wild inconsistency. He's a young pitcher entering what he hopes to be his first full season as a starting pitcher in the majors. It is rare that a pitcher at his age and experience level doesnt have a few bumps in the road. I do agree that his stuff is legit and if he gets through the next few seasons without imploding mentally or exploding physically then he has a shot at being a top of the rotation pitcher

[TheMino007]

Yea, right now Clay is a head case and his ability is really affected by what is going on upstairs. Its not his stuff, his command, or his mechanics that worry me the most, its his head. Does he have the mental game? Will he learn to just let go of one bad inning or one bad start and just pitch?

[SCM33]

Yea' date=' right now Clay is a head case and his ability is really affected by what is going on upstairs. Its not his stuff, his command, or his mechanics that worry me the most, its his head. Does he have the mental game? Will he learn to just let go of one bad inning or one bad start and just pitch?[/quote']

 

He is also very young and inexperienced pitching in a huge baseball market. He will "get it". Hes already shown success, its just a matter of time before the mental aspect follows him.

[TheKilo]

So when Lester had like a 1.5 WHIP his first 2+ seasons in the majors, was he a "head case" too?

 

f*** armchair psychologists.

[Dipre]

So when Lester had like a 1.5 WHIP his first 2+ seasons in the majors, was he a "head case" too?

 

f*** armchair psychologists.

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[a700hitter]

Can't wait til a700 is pimping Buchholz in July next season when he's having a Lester-2008 type season.

What does this mean?

[TheMino007]

So when Lester had like a 1.5 WHIP his first 2+ seasons in the majors, was he a "head case" too?

 

f*** armchair psychologists.

 

ummm, no I never said that or intended to lead people to that conclusion. Just look at Clay, its all in the way he carries himself out on the mound when things are going bad. I said he will never get over this, I said when he gets over it is when he will become a great pitcher. And he better get his ass in gear, the guy is already 26.

[BoSox21]

I could've sworn locating his pitches, especially his fastball, was his biggest problem.

[Dipre]

I didn't know 26 was the new 30.

[The_Destroyah]

yeah 26 sounds about right to be making your first full year in the majors, not everybody starts in the majors at 12years old like Felix Hernandez.

[a700hitter]

yeah 26 sounds about right to be making your first full year in the majors' date=' not everybody starts in the majors at 12years old like Felix Hernandez.[/quote']This is a crossroads year for Buchholz. He has been in the rotation for substantial portions of the last 2 years. In 2008, he stunk up the place. Last season, he had mixed results. This year he needs to put together a full good year, or his value will drop considerably.

[Dipre]

This is a crossroads year for Buchholz. He has been in the rotation for substantial portions of the last 2 years. In 2008' date=' he stunk up the place. Last season, he had mixed results. This year he needs to put together a full good year, or his value will drop considerably.[/quote']

 

What do you consider "Mixed results" ?

[Dojji]

Apparently, he consideres it having an occasional bad game.

 

Buchholz' numbers last year are anything but "mixed."

[a700hitter]

Apparently, he consideres it having an occasional bad game.

 

Buchholz' numbers last year are anything but "mixed."

2 starts in a row in September were awful. In 4 of his 16 starts he gave up 6 or 7 earned runs.

 

He had 9 QS in 16 starts. A bag of garbage like Penny had 11 QS in 24 starts.

[jacksonianmarch]

Buchholz' numbers actually were above average. They werent lights out. His OPS against was .728, which isnt great and his WHIP was right at the 1.4 range. Now, I agree that he showed flashes of brilliance out there. But if some people want to go by his overall numbers, then you really cannot fault them.

 

16GS 92IP 91H 43ER 13HR 36BB 68K 7-4 4.21ERA 1.38WHIP 6.7K/9IP 1.89K/BB

[BoSox21]

the bottom line is that overall, Buchholz's 2009 season was very promising

[a700hitter]

Buchholz' numbers actually were above average. They werent lights out. His OPS against was .728, which isnt great and his WHIP was right at the 1.4 range. Now, I agree that he showed flashes of brilliance out there. But if some people want to go by his overall numbers, then you really cannot fault them.

 

16GS 92IP 91H 43ER 13HR 36BB 68K 7-4 4.21ERA 1.38WHIP 6.7K/9IP 1.89K/BB

Average is "mixed". He was slightly above "mixed"

[Spudboy]

the bottom line is that overall' date=' Buchholz's 2009 season was very promising[/quote']

 

I agree with this post. But I have , to some degree, a700's apprehensions.

 

Buck is still young, and "raw". Hopefully he will show up in spring training with some more confidence and maturity. Two intangibles that are hard to quantify.

 

Let's not forget that the Sox altered his arm slot during the '07-'08 off season and that he gained about 15 lbs. of muscle mass. Now that he has returned to his earlier arm slot, he has been, for the most part, very effective.

 

I see no reason to expect him to regress. As I like to say, he is a work in progress.

 

By the way. I am for keeping him under most circumstances. I'd like to see Halliday in Boston, but not if it means dealing Buck away.

 

 

Edit: I would consider including him in a trade for A. Gonzalez. Nothing less.

[TheKilo]

What does this mean?

 

Can't wait til he's dominating and you come back with "I knew we shouldn't have traded Clay, I saw something special in 2007 and always believed in him"

 

or some ******** like that.

[TheKilo]

ummm' date=' no I never said that or intended to lead people to that conclusion. Just look at Clay, its all in the way he carries himself out on the mound when things are going bad. I said he will never get over this, I said when he gets over it is when he will become a great pitcher. And he better get his ass in gear, the guy is already 26.[/quote']

 

So when Lester severely struggled his first few years, did he have a defeated look on the mound? How about early 2008, when he toiled to a mid-4s ERA?

 

Not everyone has to be JOSH f***ING BECKETT or JON f***ING LESTER to be successful.

[TheKilo]

Buchholz' numbers actually were above average. They werent lights out. His OPS against was .728, which isnt great and his WHIP was right at the 1.4 range. Now, I agree that he showed flashes of brilliance out there. But if some people want to go by his overall numbers, then you really cannot fault them.

 

16GS 92IP 91H 43ER 13HR 36BB 68K 7-4 4.21ERA 1.38WHIP 6.7K/9IP 1.89K/BB

 

He also pitched against real quality teams.

[a700hitter]

Can't wait til he's dominating and you come back with "I knew we shouldn't have traded Clay, I saw something special in 2007 and always believed in him"

 

or some ******** like that.

I never do that. When I am wrong about a guy, I openly admit it. I have never said that Buchholz won't be good. He's got the stuff. I would have been in favor of trading him for certain established star pitchers while he is still developing. I won't want to trade him when he puts it together. Once we've suffered through the growing pains, we might as well enjoy the fruits. If that's the ******** your talking about, yeah gulity.

[a700hitter]

He also pitched against real quality teams.

He pitched his best against Baltimore, KC and Toronto (with the exception of 1 horrendous start). Those teams pretty much suck.