Anti-Fantasy League Draft and Discussion Thread

[Dipre]

Because the AL Central and Western divisions are anything but a joke this year. There's three winning teams in the American League west of Toronto.

 

Do you make up your own material or do you get your mommy to help you with the hard math?

 

I'm pretty sure someone made fun of you with this line, and you came back to try to use it here.

 

So really, if you're gonna bring this much FAIL into an argument when you're clearly losing because you're using a retarded argument such as:

 

"But eh has impekkabul comand!!!!111!!!"

 

Try to think before you stick your foot in your mouth, though i understand you're pretty familiar with the taste of both your feet, since foot tasting seems to be your hobby judging by the posts you make here.

[Dojji]

If you think that command isn't a very important factor in determing who the better pitcher is, then all your protestations to the contrary, you've already failed, and also failed to recognize it, making it a double fail.

 

You're the one comparing a career 100 OPS+ and a career 103 OPS+ and claiming that one is ridiculously superior to the other. That's some pretty baleful fail there.

[BoSox21]

Bush has 8 HBP in 11 GS this year, FANTASTIC COMMAND

[Dipre]

Because the AL Central and Western divisions are anything but a joke this year. There's three winning teams in the American League west of Toronto.

 

Do you make up your own material or do you get your mommy to help you with the hard math?

 

The National League has Pujols, Hanley, Howard, Fielder, Braun, and Adrian Gonzalez.

 

The American League? Has A-Rod and Morneau.

 

I'd say that the fact that nearly every truly great hitter hits in the National League is reasonable compensation for the fact that pitchers hit.

 

I could go right down the list of position players and show you that the best hitter in nearly every position is a National League player.

 

Oh goodie, you're even stupider than i thought.

 

The Nl may have the best overall players.

 

But how does that stack up to having the best overall LINEUPS, you douchebag.

 

Only 3 teams in the NL have over 285 runs scored.

 

In the AL?

 

7 teams.

 

So what does this tell us?

 

Well, i suppose this tells us that the AL teams SCORE more runs.

 

But hey, the NL has Hanley and Pujols, so they must score more runs, right?

 

I just talked to the driver of the short bus, your usual seat has been reserved for your next trip.

[Dojji]

Bush has 8 HBP in 11 GS this year' date=' FANTASTIC COMMAND[/quote']

 

Really? using HBP to determine command? Seriously? Isn't that kind of like using sacrifice flies to determine power?

[BoSox21]

well, you're the one who wants to discount Meche's prime years when comparing the two pitchers for some reason

[Dipre]

Just for shits and giggles.

 

Check this out:

 

The 14 AL teams this year have combined to score 3,876 runs.

 

For a team average of 277 runs.

 

The 16 NL teams this year have combined to score 4,094 runs.

 

For a team average of 255 runs.

 

And i want you, Doiji, my good sir, please find me a better team offense indicator than Runs Scored, because the AL has +22 average runs scored per team than the NL.

 

And guess what, mommy didn't have to take me to ride the short bus like she'll have to take you after you start crying from reading this post.

[Dojji]

AL runs scored, 2008

 

10,844

 

NL runs scored, 2008

 

11,741

 

Now, that IS spread out over 2 more teams, but I think my point is made.

[Dipre]

AL runs scored, 2008

 

10,844

 

NL runs scored, 2008

 

11,741

 

Now, that IS spread out over 2 more teams, but I think my point is made.

 

Lol check above post, douche.

 

You need to use average runs scored per teams, because over a season, 2 teams score over 1,400 runs.

 

2008 average RS per team:

 

AL- 744

 

NL-733.

[Dojji]

well' date=' you're the one who wants to discount Meche's prime years when comparing the two pitchers for some reason[/quote']

 

Actually no, I'm counting them, just they alone aren't enough to break the tie. In fact Meche needed those seasons to catch up with Bush. Even with them we're talking about a pretty minute difference -- again, 100 ERA+ vs. 103. Both pretty much exactly average pitchers over their careers.

[Dojji]

Lol check above post, douche.

 

You need to use average runs scored per teams, because over a season, 2 teams score over 1,400 runs.

 

2008 average RS per team:

 

AL- 744

 

NL-733.

 

An 11 run difference over an entire season isn't exactly titanic, DipreG. Certainly not enough to be worth all the idiotic posturing on your part.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Really? using HBP to determine command? Seriously? Isn't that kind of like using sacrifice flies to determine power?

Studies have shown that if you're plonking batters (who are well outside the strike zone) in 2/3 of your starts, you may have some minor command problems.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

An 11 run difference over an entire season isn't exactly titanic' date=' DipreG. Certainly not enough to be worth all the idiotic posturing on your part.[/quote']

No, but the fact that they have two more teams and still finished second of the two leagues in runs should be a little bit telling.

[Dojji]

Studies have shown that if you're plonking batters (who are well outside the strike zone) in 2/3 of your starts' date=' you may have some minor command problems.[/quote']

 

Studies have shown that T-Rex was furry and warm-blooded like a giant kitten with no arms, and discussed the virtues and vices of bathtub rings. There is virtually no correlation between HBP and a meaningful discussion of a player's command. It's just something Bosox21 threw in to get his digs in with no real bearing on anything related to the subject at hand.

[Dipre]

Studies have also shown that when a league scores more runs than the other on average, no matter how small the margin, it's better offensively than the other.

 

Which directly contradicts your "Teh NL haz teh betta playirs, so it must be a betta hittin ligue!!!!1111!!!!"

 

Wrong, the AL is the better hitting league.

[Dojji]

No' date=' but the fact that they have two more teams and still finished second of the two leagues in runs should be a little bit telling.[/quote']

 

Yeah, that was factored in, that's why a team that scored more runs total scored less on average. I fail to see how 2 more teams really makes a difference here. But the difference that does exist is easily within a standard deviation. The difference here is not worthy of note. The difference in offense between the two leagues over a full season is overblown. It's there, but it's not as big as it's sometimes made to appear and reasonably small factors can cause the NL to score more runs than the AL in a given year.

 

Even though pitchers hit, in the NL, there's no small number of American League teams who watch their shortstops and/or catchers hit (or their DH's for that matter) and think wistfully of whether a given pitcher might do better. It's just not as big an issue in practice as it is on paper.

 

 

A bigger issue with the National League is that there doesn't seem to be that dynasty team anywhere that can really set itself up to be perpetual contenders. There's 2-3 of those in the AL, and that's probably a bigger cause of the scoring disparity than the DH rule.

[Dipre]

Yeah, that was factored in, that's why a team that scored more runs total scored less on average. I fail to see how 2 more teams really makes a difference here. But the difference is easily within a standard deviation here. The difference in offense between the two leagues over a full season is overblown. It's there, but it's not as big as it's sometimes made to appear.

 

Even though pitchers hit, there's no small number of American League teams who watch their shortstops and/or catchers hit (or their DH's for that matter) and think wistfully of whether a given pitcher might do better. It's just not as big an issue in practice as it is on paper.

 

Sure, for the purposes of your argument it isn't.

[Dojji]

Perhaps we can actually have a meaningful discussion of the merits of Bush and Meche without all the NL-AL nonsense.

 

As I see it, Meche has two advantages over Bush, and Bush has one over Meche. Meche is more durable (more IP/season) and a somewhat better strikeout rate. Bush surrenders fewer baserunners and also has the benefit of being somewhat younger. The difference in career pitching numbers averages out to zero with an infinitesimal edge to Meche. If they faced off when all else was equal, historical Meche and historical Bush would probably split a 100 game series something like 52-48 in Meche's favor. It's hard to say, though, since that kind of dynamic will never really be put to the test. There are way too many dynamics in baseball for ALL else to be equal.

 

The other dynamic here is that Meche has really improved over the last couple seasons while Bush has not. It's very possible going forward that Meche might be the better option as a result. Meche's improvements are largely a result of greatly reduced bb/9, which doesn't signify a whole lot but might mean that he's got his stuff together and finally "got it." On the other hand, Meche's bb/9 is back up to his career levels this year at 3.6 per 9, so unless he goes on a hot streak, the ugly word "regression" rears its head.

 

For a fifth starter, though, either option is more than adequate. A durable, league average pitcher for a #5 is a good way to go. Meche might be a little better but either pitcher should get the job done.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Studies have shown that T-Rex was furry and warm-blooded like a giant kitten with no arms' date=' and discussed the virtues and vices of bathtub rings. There is virtually no correlation between HBP and a meaningful discussion of a player's command. It's just something Bosox21 threw in to get his digs in with no real bearing on anything related to the subject at hand.[/quote']

Okay, you bombed the logic test, props.

 

Maybe numbers will tell the story better.

 

2009 Meche: 27 walks, 68 IP, 0 HBP = 27 free bases. Also 50 K's and 2 HR's allowed.

 

2009 Bush: 20 walks, 69 IP, 8 HBP = 28 free bases. Also 49 K's and 14 HR's allowed.

 

So basically, they're about equal in K's. Same in walks. But wait! Logic would also dictate that if Player A has issued 27 free bases, and not hit one batter, i.e. all legit 4 ball walks, and Player B has issued 28 free bases, but 8 of those were hit batters, that Player A would have the better control due to not hitting objects well outside the zone, and issuing less free bases while remaining far more tame with his throws. Not hard.

 

The HR differential is pretty revealing by itself, one would think.

[Dojji]

Okay, you bombed the logic test, props.

 

Maybe numbers will tell the story better.

 

2009 Meche: 27 walks, 68 IP, 0 HBP = 27 free bases. Also 50 K's and 2 HR's allowed.

 

2009 Bush: 20 walks, 69 IP, 8 HBP = 28 free bases. Also 49 K's and 14 HR's allowed.

 

So basically, they're about equal in K's. Same in walks. But wait! Logic would also dictate that if Player A has issued 27 free bases, and not hit one batter, i.e. all legit 4 ball walks, and Player B has issued 28 free bases, but 8 of those were hit batters, that Player A would have the better control due to not hitting objects well outside the zone, and issuing less free bases while remaining far more tame with his throws. Not hard.

 

The HR differential is pretty revealing by itself, one would think.

 

Yeah, sure, if you're only counting this season. Since we're trying to project for up to 5 years into the future you kind of have to look more than 1 year into the past. We're still early enough into this year that small sample sizes are going to distort results -- this looks like a prime example. As a general rule, for any veteran, usual trends will eventually prevail, and this isn't much of a deviation.

 

Also, Meche's HR totals are unsustainably low this year. That will normalize. By career he's around 1 HR/9, a little less than that in his 2 breakout years. Pitching at home at Kauffman Stadium with its deep outfield is probably the biggest part of his "turnaround." but he'll probably be at just under 1 HR/9 again this year when all is said and done. Less than Bush, but not by a ton.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Also' date=' Meche's HR totals are unsustainably low this year. That will normalize. By career he's around 1 HR/9, a little less than that in his 2 breakout years. Pitching at home at Kauffman Stadium with its deep outfield is probably the biggest part of his "turnaround." but he'll probably be at around 1 HR/9 again this year when all is said and done. Less than Bush, but not by a ton.[/quote']

 

Terrific, now legitamize Bush's Eric Milton-like serving binge and counter my other points.

[Dojji]

Terrific' date=' now legitamize Bush's Eric Milton-like serving binge and counter my other points.[/quote']

 

What other points? You're conflating an outlying small sample size based on a partial season into an argument. I see no reason to believe that those trends won't normalize.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

What other points? You're conflating an outlying small sample size based on a partial season into an argument. I see no reason to believe that those trends won't normalize.

The other points as in how a player who has issued one more free base than another pitcher but issued 8 HBP (in 11 starts) somehow doesn't have control issues.

[BSN07]

Yeah, the Baring Badgers officially do not draft Miller.

 

Do not want.

 

You say that now, you may change your tune eventually;)

[Dipre]

You say that now' date=' you may change your tune eventually;)[/quote']

 

Specially with the awesomeness that is Dave Bush in his rotation

[Dojji]

I've told you THREE TIMES that I'm evaluating Bush based on his career, not his 2009 numbers, Jacoby. When you're trying to pick veterans to play for you for 5 years you can't be swayed by SSS unless they point to extreme problems. This? Doesn't.

 

Bush doesn't have control issues. Control issues is what Dontrelle Willis had. Bush just had a couple bad games. Yes, there is a difference.

[Cocos Disciples]

Fixed the Miller crisis. I was wondering why BSN07 only had 3 starters...

[Dojji]

You say that now' date=' you may change your tune eventually;)[/quote']

 

We'll see if Miller can get his walk rate down to sane levels at some point. He's definitely a work in progress, and the major league contract hurt him a lot. I suspect he's just too raw to live and he'll get burned by the contract rules and have his development stunted as a result;

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I've told you THREE TIMES that I'm evaluating Bush based on his career' date=' not his 2009 numbers, Jacoby. When you're trying to pick veterans to play for you for 5 years you can't be swayed by SSS unless they point to extreme problems. This? Doesn't.[/quote']

 

lol

 

Yeah, Bush has had such an illustrious career that he deserves a few mulligans.

[Dojji]

http://yellowcakewalk.net/2006-09-11/red_herring.jpg