The Clemens Watch

[ksushi]

Anyone have any new word on whether Clemens will play yet? Or where?

[The Monster is my Mom]

Yeah, but its early and Bernie is a good hitter, we all know that.

 

Was a good hitter. He's too old now.

[TheRivernator]

I think those that think Rog would jump to the sox over the yankees for sentimentality reasons are deluding themselves. If he goes to either the yankees or the sox, he would make either team head and shoulders better in the pitching department than the other, so him picking either one because of talent is a moot point. Also, if there is one thing about Roger that I know, it is that he loves MONEY. The only team he'd take a little less money to go to is Houston. Other than that, he'll be a merc and go to the highest bidder. If things in the Bronx continue as is (2 horses and 3?'s) then I dont see the yankees getting outbid by a cost conscious ownership (the red sox).....

[BoSox21]

to me, it just seems like things are working out perfectly for Clemens to plug himself into the rotation. Now Wells is talking about retiring if his knee doesn't get better and DiNardo clearly isn't ready to be a regular in the rotation. even when he's solid, he doesn't go past 6 innings

[a700hitter]

I think those that think Rog would jump to the sox over the yankees for sentimentality reasons are deluding themselves. If he goes to either the yankees or the sox, he would make either team head and shoulders better in the pitching department than the other, so him picking either one because of talent is a moot point. Also, if there is one thing about Roger that I know, it is that he loves MONEY. The only team he'd take a little less money to go to is Houston. Other than that, he'll be a merc and go to the highest bidder. If things in the Bronx continue as is (2 horses and 3?'s) then I dont see the yankees getting outbid by a cost conscious ownership (the red sox).....

The Rocket will not take less from any team including Houston. While the Red Sox would not outbid the Yankees for him on straight up dollars, I think the creativity of this management team would top the value offered by the Yankees by tapping into other sources of revenue for the Rocket, e.g., Marketing campaigns etc.

[TheRivernator]

The Rocket will not take less from any team including Houston. While the Red Sox would not outbid the Yankees for him on straight up dollars, I think the creativity of this management team would top the value offered by the Yankees by tapping into other sources of revenue for the Rocket, e.g., Marketing campaigns etc.

 

why would a marketing campaign in Boston have anywhere near the impact that it would in NYC. The sheer size of the city would be enough. Plus, Roger is gonna want base salary $$, not money that may get to him if he sells enough tickets. Bottom line is as it is with anything, if the yankees and sox are battling it out to sign a FA, you know who will win as long as the current sox regime is in town. That isnt a bad thing, being cost conscious is good at times, but everyone knows what you'll get with the rocket....

[rician blast]

Clemens, aka Mr. Regular Season, has a pitiful postseason resume. remember the blistah? or gettign chucked in 1988 when he argued a call? and his recent history doesn't show much has changed.

 

yet I'd still take him over Wake, Clement or Fat A$$. its about the name on front, and if it helps the team, I'm for it...even if he is a pompous a$$.

 

oh wait, the pompous a$$ characteristic makes him a Yankee right off...so I guess he'll go there.

[seabeachfred]

I'm of the firm belief that the Red Sox will not be pinching pennies if they perceive that Roger can be the final piece to a World Series puzzle. The Red Sox will be in on the bidding from start to end and I think Clemens knows that if goes to the Red Sox we will have a "Big Three" that is unmatched anywhere in baseball and a WS might well be in the cards.

[rician blast]

Bottom line is as it is with anything, if the yankees and sox are battling it out to sign a FA, you know who will win as long as the current sox regime is in town.

 

so the red sox "current regime" is why the Yankees can outduel them for top talent?

 

It has nothing to do with the yankees overwhelming advantage in terms of resources?

 

i may be new to this forum, but I think I've already identified an amateur in our midst.

[CrespoBlows]

I don't see why Clemens would go to the Yankees. Sure he may be friends with Joe Torre, but would he really take that over being close at home (Houston) or passing Cy Young while watching his number 21 being retired at Fenway Park?

 

The only way Clemens goes to the Yankees is if they throw $20-$25 million at him. Which is obscene, and sick.

[rician blast]

The only way Clemens goes to the Yankees is if they throw $20-$25 million at him. Which is obscene, and sick.

 

and right up their alley.

[The Monster is my Mom]

Clemens, aka Mr. Regular Season, has a pitiful postseason resume. remember the blistah? or gettign chucked in 1988 when he argued a call? and his recent history doesn't show much has changed.

 

yet I'd still take him over Wake, Clement or Fat A$$. its about the name on front, and if it helps the team, I'm for it...even if he is a pompous a$$.

 

oh wait, the pompous a$$ characteristic makes him a Yankee right off...so I guess he'll go there.

 

hey, welcome aboard and you are allowed to say ass here, not just a$$

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I don't see why Clemens would go to the Yankees. Sure he may be friends with Joe Torre, but would he really take that over being close at home (Houston) or passing Cy Young while watching his number 21 being retired at Fenway Park?

 

The only way Clemens goes to the Yankees is if they throw $20-$25 million at him. Which is obscene, and sick.

 

Couldn't agree more. I think at this point the legend of Roger Clemens could grow into something incredible if he were to rejoin his old team and help lead them to the WS.

 

I'd only want him back though if he showed up ready to win...I don't want another David Wells and something tells me that wouldn't be Clemens. I'm sure he is watching and thinking to himself this could be the greatest pitching staff ever created.

 

We have three guys in the bullpen (Timlin, Foulke [finally!], and Papelbon) who are very solid. Two starters of ace quality (Beckett, Schilling) and two others who are better than almost every teams #4-#5 starters (Clement, Wake). Not just that but our defense is fantastic with "5" potential gold glove infielders.

 

If not Clemens I would still hope the Red Sox could get another solution to the last rotation spot.

[TheRivernator]

so the red sox "current regime" is why the Yankees can outduel them for top talent?

 

It has nothing to do with the yankees overwhelming advantage in terms of resources?

 

i may be new to this forum, but I think I've already identified an amateur in our midst.

 

No need to throw the jab in late there buddy, I am far from an amateur poster. And big words coming from someone with 4 total posts. Back to your quasi-point. The Yankee advantage is overwhelming to most teams. It is simply a burden for the red sox, who themselves are a top 5 team in revenue and one of the only teams required to pay revenue sharing. BUT, saying that, the Duke would outduel the yankees regularly and get players the yankees had their eyes on. Your current cleanup hitter is one of those guys. The current sox regime is not about to go head to head with the yankees on the big names like Duke did, they'll make the shrewd lower level moves that may or may not pan out. That is why, I think that if there were a head to head, need for need battle between the yankees and the sox, and the player's destination was solely based on salary offered, I'd find it hard to believe that the yankees would be beaten out. Previous regimes may have matched Clemens dollar for dollar, but I dont think this one will. At the same time, this regime has a method to their madness and find ways to equal yankee acquisitions. They also have more MLB ready or close to ready talent available to them in the minors, so if they have a need and Clemens would be a bidding war, I'd expect the sox to nab a top line starter on the trade market. I still have a feeling that Zito comes east this deadline, but I dont think it is the yanks who will get him.....

[TheRivernator]

I don't see why Clemens would go to the Yankees. Sure he may be friends with Joe Torre, but would he really take that over being close at home (Houston) or passing Cy Young while watching his number 21 being retired at Fenway Park?

 

The only way Clemens goes to the Yankees is if they throw $20-$25 million at him. Which is obscene, and sick.

 

I dont think the yankees will obscenely outbid anyone if they are given a chance. Remember, the point is moot if the Stros come in with a reasonable offer, which is the odds on favorite to this point. BUT, if he comes to the yankees, I'd expect it would have to depend on when he would come in. If he comes in for July, there is no way he makes 20 mil. But I would not be surprised if the yankees threw 2 mil a month at him, making him about 10 mil over the season with major incentives should he put together a stellar yr. Remember one thing. George is willing to spend any amount of money to win, and he'll gladly pay Roger 50 mil if it guaranteed us a championship. He knows what Roger brings to the table, he knows that the guy will give him quality starts in bunches, something that the back end of the staff has not proven they can do on a regular basis. So if I had to guess a number, I'd go 2 mil a month with the capability to make 15 mil with a schilling-esque clause (I know those are not allowed, but I wouldnt be surprised if they figured out a way to make that work). 15 mil for a guy who can put up a 2era is worth it. The best part is that he would be a one shot wonder, flash in the pan who wont yoke us for yrs to come....

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I dont think the yankees will obscenely outbid anyone if they are given a chance. Remember, the point is moot if the Stros come in with a reasonable offer, which is the odds on favorite to this point. BUT, if he comes to the yankees, I'd expect it would have to depend on when he would come in. If he comes in for July, there is no way he makes 20 mil. But I would not be surprised if the yankees threw 2 mil a month at him, making him about 10 mil over the season with major incentives should he put together a stellar yr. Remember one thing. George is willing to spend any amount of money to win, and he'll gladly pay Roger 50 mil if it guaranteed us a championship. He knows what Roger brings to the table, he knows that the guy will give him quality starts in bunches, something that the back end of the staff has not proven they can do on a regular basis. So if I had to guess a number, I'd go 2 mil a month with the capability to make 15 mil with a schilling-esque clause (I know those are not allowed, but I wouldnt be surprised if they figured out a way to make that work). 15 mil for a guy who can put up a 2era is worth it. The best part is that he would be a one shot wonder, flash in the pan who wont yoke us for yrs to come....

 

I'd have to disagree in the beginning about the Astros. I think they are moving on from Roger Clemens and giving there young rotation the time to develop...not to mention they are performing well thus far.

 

Its not like the Yanks and Sox where they can post pretty much any kind of money and survive...the Astros need to think about that and keep it in there interest.

[TheRivernator]

I'd have to disagree in the beginning about the Astros. I think they are moving on from Roger Clemens and giving there young rotation the time to develop...not to mention they are performing well thus far.

 

Its not like the Yanks and Sox where they can post pretty much any kind of money and survive...the Astros need to think about that and keep it in there interest.

 

I agree, but if they cut payroll this offseason, then there is no reason why they shouldnt be able to afford him for 10 mil or so. Like I said before, every game that the stros win, is another day that his chances of playing close to home drop.

[ksushi]

No need to throw the jab in late there buddy, I am far from an amateur poster. And big words coming from someone with 4 total posts.

 

Trust me on this, post count doesn't measure credibility. He's already got boat loads more than half the members on this site. Didn't that claybucholz guy have like 1000 posts? Case and point.

 

Back to your quasi-point. The Yankee advantage is overwhelming to most teams. It is simply a burden for the red sox, who themselves are a top 5 team in revenue and one of the only teams required to pay revenue sharing. BUT, saying that, the Duke would outduel the yankees regularly and get players the yankees had their eyes on. Your current cleanup hitter is one of those guys. The current sox regime is not about to go head to head with the yankees on the big names like Duke did, they'll make the shrewd lower level moves that may or may not pan out.

 

Since when do big names win? And lower level moves? Last time I checked all the major league teams were on the same level. Just because the Sox have gone younger, doesn't mean their moves are "low level". You think Johnny Damon was as good a long term move as Coco Crisp? You'd be a liar to tell me yes. I, for one, am kind of glad the sox have not shelled out money in droves for big names. Or else we'd be sitting here with AJ Burnett on the DL, Johnny Damon wearing down for the next four years, and Carl Pavano... doing whatever it is he's been doing since he signed with the Yankees. I think chasing after big names have put the yankees where they are - a senior citizen community where one Randy Johnson back strain could sink their entire season.

 

That is why, I think that if there were a head to head, need for need battle between the yankees and the sox, and the player's destination was solely based on salary offered, I'd find it hard to believe that the yankees would be beaten out. Previous regimes may have matched Clemens dollar for dollar, but I dont think this one will.

 

This is where you are wrong. Before you were close to wrong, now its all out wrongness. The difference between the Red Sox and Yankees FO's is not the willingness to spend but the willingness to commit for a long period of time. I think the Red Sox would go dollar for dollar to get Roger and since Roger is only looking for one year, that should scare you. George is completely willing to extend a Randy Johnson, sign a Sheffield, and... Damon. He's not worried about the whole roster turn over thing, or the age thing. He can bury those contracts under more obsene contracts, something the sox won't do. For a one year deal on the other hand, the sox will likely match the Yankees dollar for dollar. If Roger does sign with a team in the AL East, that team will probably win the division. I fully admit that if the Red Sox sign him, they are buying the division and I will never bitch about the Yankees purchasing anything ever again. Never. I think the Sox will buy Roger away from the Yankees. I think he makes us better than he would make the Yankees. I think he knows that, I think Theo knows that and I think John Henry knows that.

 

At the same time, this regime has a method to their madness and find ways to equal yankee acquisitions. They also have more MLB ready or close to ready talent available to them in the minors, so if they have a need and Clemens would be a bidding war, I'd expect the sox to nab a top line starter on the trade market. I still have a feeling that Zito comes east this deadline, but I dont think it is the yanks who will get him.....

 

The Sox aren't going to deal for a Zito. That would have to include Lester, and that kind of a move does not make sense.

[TheRivernator]

Since when do big names win?

Big names usually win, so long as you dont get them off career yrs. The yankees have thrown stupid money out there to players coming off one good yr. They have also gotten guys like Mussina and Johnson who are big names that have produced over the length of the contract.

 

And lower level moves? Last time I checked all the major league teams were on the same level. Just because the Sox have gone younger, doesn't mean their moves are "low level".

You obviously arent getting what I am saying. Lower level means that they go below the radar and get reach guys who could pan out, instead of guys who are proven that they will pan out. Case in point, Ortiz. Did anyone have a clue he'd become this good, you'd be lying if you said yes. Mueller was a utility guy when he came to the sox and he only became the most clutch guy on your team not named ortiz. Millar was on his way to Japan for godsakes. Arroyo was pulled off waivers. Bellhorn was a minor league FA. Timlin was a minor signing, etc, etc, etc. Those are lower level moves IMHO, because you get guys when their value is low and you hope they pan out, and for Theo they have so far. They are more of a knock on the 29 other teams who passed on these guys.

 

You think Johnny Damon was as good a long term move as Coco Crisp?

It is April 24th into their first seasons with their new teams. I'll take track record over potential any day, and currently I'd take Damon over Coco, that is all that matters. Keep denying it if you want to, but Coco is not the player Damon was for you guys on or off the field. Also, we gave up a draft pick and cash for Damon and you gave up one of the best prospects in baseball for him.

 

Johnny Damon wearing down for the next four years

Seriously, those who think Damon is wearing down are idiots and are buying the spin of the boston media. Consider yourself a sucker for making you think that way. Way too much jealousy and hatred aimed at Damon, especially for someone so happy to have injured Coco on board

 

I think chasing after big names have put the yankees where they are - a senior citizen community where one Randy Johnson back strain could sink their entire season.

I'll take where they are. 8 consecutive AL East titles and 9 in the last 10 yrs. They're doing something right...

 

This is where you are wrong. Before you were close to wrong, now its all out wrongness. The difference between the Red Sox and Yankees FO's is not the willingness to spend but the willingness to commit for a long period of time.

It is both. Theo's boss was brought in by Henry to make money and you dont do that by shelling out top dollar for every player that comes your way. Look at the money they have thrown around. The only player they have outbid people on was ERent, and in today's standards, he isnt making a ton of money. They were in the AJ running, but the money got too rich for them, as I dont think a 5 yr deal to a guy who is 28 would be a problem. The bottom line is, the sox have a limit to which they will go, and good businessman all do. I dont think the yanks will have a limit.

 

I think the Red Sox would go dollar for dollar to get Roger and since Roger is only looking for one year, that should scare you.

Why is that? I'm not scared of the yankees being outbid for Clemens. If he s willing to come back to the northeast, I have no doubts in my mind that he'll be donning the pinstripes, NONE. George won't get outbid....

[26 to 6]

Riv, all of your points have been DEAD-ON. Most of these guys dont understand what you mean and are taking your points the wrong way, as attacks towards the Red Sox, but all very good points.

[TheRivernator]

Riv, all of your points have been DEAD-ON. Most of these guys dont understand what you mean and are taking your points the wrong way, as attacks towards the Red Sox, but all very good points.

 

thanks buddy. I think after the way I started, anyone who sees my name will think I'm trashing the sox. I usually start out a little offensive on these boards, but eventually I settle down...

[ksushi]

Big names usually win, so long as you dont get them off career yrs.

 

Yeah, no kidding, that is why they have big names, from career years. While guys with good track records usually continue to produce there is a point in a players career where his prime production is behind him. That is where I have a problem with most of the sports media. They throw huge parties for signings of guys like Wagner, Damon, and Burnett. Guys with big name tags but not nesseccarily the guys who will produce the best over the course of their contracts. What you consider 'under the radar' is only that way to people who follow baseball just by what they see on TV. I'm a freak. I eat sleep and breathe baseball and a lot of the things I see on TV, I've expected for some time. I can honestly say I was not surprised to see Ortiz explode, of course I didn't think he would be the perrenial 40hr threat that he is, but in 03 when he hit 31 I was not shocked. Erm... anyways...

 

The yankees have thrown stupid money out there to players coming off one good yr. They have also gotten guys like Mussina and Johnson who are big names that have produced over the length of the contract.

 

Johnson has produced? Really? They've had him for a year and he was good for about half a year. We're one month into this season and you're calling his contract a success? If memory serves correctly, he still has next year and the year after? Wait until then. I could be wrong, I forget his contract length but I know its absurd. Even next year would be a gamble in my opinion. The smart money was put on guys like Radke and others I can't really remember. Johnson was not one of the best acquisitions last off-season. Another case where a name took center stage rather than talent. If I have the oppurtunity to sign a Brad Radke or trade for Johnson, I'd take Radke.

 

The Sox almost signed him, I liked Radke a lot. Still do.

 

 

 

You obviously arent getting what I am saying. Lower level means that they go below the radar and get reach guys who could pan out, instead of guys who are proven that they will pan out. Case in point, Ortiz. Did anyone have a clue he'd become this good, you'd be lying if you said yes. Mueller was a utility guy when he came to the sox and he only became the most clutch guy on your team not named ortiz. Millar was on his way to Japan for godsakes. Arroyo was pulled off waivers. Bellhorn was a minor league FA. Timlin was a minor signing, etc, etc, etc.

 

Actually, if you wanna get technical, Timlin wasn't really a minor signing. He is a proven guy who has closed for a number of clubs, The Mariners, Jays, Cardinals to name a few. He wasn't a guy off the scrap heap and yeah, Bellhorn was, Ortiz was, Arroyo was but thats what happens. That happens all up and down baseball. It really doesn't have to do with luck, more scouting and circumstance.

 

I agree that a proven player is better than a guy who hasn't done a thing... to an extent. I love the Wily Mo deal. I think that was a hugely underrated trade that people will really look back on and say "wow, we got a steal" I think that Coco Crisp is an excellent replacement for Damon in the lineup considering his age and what he has done to this point. Look at it this way: If the Red Sox, or any team for that matter, were offered Crisp for Damon straight up no cash changing hands, you'd be crazy not to turn it down. That is essentially the move the Sox made. I really really didn't like moving Marte. I loved Marte. I think though, they are two different types of players and I think it is an even deal provided Marte doesn't turn into the next Mike Schmidt. I like that deal a lot. I think Crisp is an excellent ignitor. What happened though? No one cared in the media, the Sox losing Damon was still looked at as a crushing blow to them. It wasn't!

 

 

Those are lower level moves IMHO, because you get guys when their value is low and you hope they pan out, and for Theo they have so far. They are more of a knock on the 29 other teams who passed on these guys.

 

You make it sound so hit or miss. It isn't. Theo knows exactly who is getting when he gets Wily Mo, an Ortiz, or an Arroyo. For the record he has gotten guys who have fallen on their face. Jeremy Giambi? BK Kim? Not every move pans out, its just that when you make as many 'low level' moves as the Sox do, some do pan out in a big way. The Yankees used to do this. Did you know the Yankees have never won a championship with a payroll +90 million? The O'neills, the Brosiuss's(sp), the Aaron Smalls, they are all under the radar. Sure, every team has their marquee player, but gathering up them all in a spending spree with all the camera's pointed in your direction doesn't really guarentee anything. Sometimes its good to have your mix of role players.

 

It is April 24th into their first seasons with their new teams. I'll take track record over potential any day, and currently I'd take Damon over Coco, that is all that matters. Keep denying it if you want to, but Coco is not the player Damon was for you guys on or off the field. Also, we gave up a draft pick and cash for Damon and you gave up one of the best prospects in baseball for him.

 

To be honest, Damon wasn't this kind of hitter when he was 26. If you take track record over potential, eventually it will come back to haunt you. Not looking ahead and making moves based on track record will not work out long term. Not a very good baseball philosophy. Granted, going all in based on potential doesn't work either, its all about balance.

 

Seriously, those who think Damon is wearing down are idiots and are buying the spin of the boston media. Consider yourself a sucker for making you think that way. Way too much jealousy and hatred aimed at Damon, especially for someone so happy to have injured Coco on board

 

Haha, I'm going to take you to the bank on this one. We'll talk in two years. The Sox move to let Damon go was going to happen and I was calling for it in August when people started to hit the panic button as he batted like .230 for that month. He broke down in the second half because he plays with reckless abandon out there. Guys like that do break down as they get older. His best days are behind him. I would take a Coco whose best days are undeniably infront of him. Go ahead, try and dispute that. Try and tell me that Damon's best days are ahead of him. Try to tell me that Coco Crisp doesn't have his whole career ahead of him, and a good one too. He hit .320 on the road last year and .270 at home. Those are the kinds of splits that bode very well for a hitter switching ballparks, especially moving to fenway. I think anyone who doesn't look at the Sox move to let Damon go isn't looking at the big picture. They'd been looking at replacements since September, this wasn't like the Yankees quietly snuck in and stole our marquee player out from under us.

 

I'll take where they are. 8 consecutive AL East titles and 9 in the last 10 yrs. They're doing something right...

 

And I'll take a farm system loaded with talent and a major league roster with youth on it rather than that retirement village in new york... except Robinson Cano who I think will be really great. Besides him. Wang... eh, can't base a staff around him, but hes good.

 

It is both. Theo's boss was brought in by Henry to make money and you dont do that by shelling out top dollar for every player that comes your way. Look at the money they have thrown around. The only player they have outbid people on was ERent, and in today's standards, he isnt making a ton of money. They were in the AJ running, but the money got too rich for them, as I dont think a 5 yr deal to a guy who is 28 would be a problem. The bottom line is, the sox have a limit to which they will go, and good businessman all do. I dont think the yanks will have a limit.

 

They weren't in the AJ running. They were in the running to acquire him via trade during the season but they were never serious contenders for him in the offseason. You like to look at things from the outside only. A 5 year deal for a guy who is 28 who has had so many injuries especially relating to his arm - who has actually never proved healthy for an extended peroid of time - is a problem. Another one of those moves that is best when not made. Instead they go out and get Beckett, recently given a clean bill of health, never has had a problem with velocity whose most troublesome injuries have been blisters. Good move? Most likely.

 

Why is that? I'm not scared of the yankees being outbid for Clemens. If he s willing to come back to the northeast, I have no doubts in my mind that he'll be donning the pinstripes, NONE. George won't get outbid....

 

I think you're going to be sorely dissappointed.

 

 

I don't think anything about what you said is 'dead on'

[TheRivernator]

Yeah, no kidding, that is why they have big names, from career years. While guys with good track records usually continue to produce there is a point in a players career where his prime production is behind him. That is where I have a problem with most of the sports media. They throw huge parties for signings of guys like Wagner, Damon, and Burnett.

So you made my point for me, ok. As far as the last part, Wagner and Damon have been money in the bank for a few yrs now. Damon is 32, he isnt even close to slowing down. Wagner is one of the best closers in the game, he'll be worth his money. The sox and their fans have had a problem with judging when someone is in the twilight of their careers. On the flipside the yankees sometimes overestimate when they'll lose it, so lets not argue the point, two different philosophies and both of us are pervaded in the opposite. We cannot separate the bias, so lets not try to.

 

 

 

Johnson has produced? Really? They've had him for a year and he was good for about half a year. We're one month into this season and you're calling his contract a success? If memory serves correctly, he still has next year and the year after?

If you ate, slept and shat baseball, you'd know Randy is signed through next yr. Also, a guy with a sub 4 era and a 5-0 record against our rivals is a success to this point. He's nearly halfway through the contract, so I think we can judge it....

 

The smart money was put on guys like Radke and others I can't really remember.

Johnson was not one of the best acquisitions last off-season. Another case where a name took center stage rather than talent. If I have the oppurtunity to sign a Brad Radke or trade for Johnson, I'd take Radke. The Sox almost signed him, I liked Radke a lot. Still do.

Okay, hmm. Last 2 yrs-- 20 wins and 3.70 ERA for Johnson. 11-14 4.38ERA for Radke. Yep, smart money is on the worse pitcher

 

Actually, if you wanna get technical, Timlin wasn't really a minor signing. He is a proven guy who has closed for a number of clubs, The Mariners, Jays, Cardinals to name a few.

He was signed to a minimum deal after a good yr in StL, but nobody would give him big money because of his age.

 

I think that Coco Crisp is an excellent replacement for Damon in the lineup considering his age and what he has done to this point. Look at it this way: If the Red Sox, or any team for that matter, were offered Crisp for Damon straight up no cash changing hands, you'd be crazy not to turn it down. That is essentially the move the Sox made. I really really didn't like moving Marte. I loved Marte. I think though, they are two different types of players and I think it is an even deal provided Marte doesn't turn into the next Mike Schmidt. I like that deal a lot. I think Crisp is an excellent ignitor. What happened though? No one cared in the media, the Sox losing Damon was still looked at as a crushing blow to them. It wasn't!

Well what you did was deal ERent, 11 mil, Damon, Mota, and Shoppach for Yanks 1st rounder, Coco, Riske, and Bard. Not worth it IMHO. Also, Crisp has had 2 good yrs in relative obscurity. He started strong on the road for you guys, now he is hurt and he's being cause coco glass? wimp? etc by the media. How will he react when they probe into every corner of his life? You have no idea how, but you knew ow Damon would react. Also, Damon is 32, 32, he's not over the hill, not even close and a 4 yr deal is about as long as I'd have given him, and btw how long the sox were gonna give him when they were OUTBID!!!

 

You make it sound so hit or miss. It isn't.

As much as wonderboy wants to make it sound like it isnt, picking players off the trash heap is hit or miss, for every Ortiz there is a Jer. Giambi.

 

It is April 24th into their first seasons with their new teams. I'll take track record over potential any day, and currently I'd take Damon over Coco, that is all that matters. Keep denying it if you want to, but Coco is not the player Damon was for you guys on or off the field. Also, we gave up a draft pick and cash for Damon and you gave up one of the best prospects in baseball for him.

 

To be honest, Damon wasn't this kind of hitter when he was 26. If you take track record over potential, eventually it will come back to haunt you. Not looking ahead and making moves based on track record will not work out long term. Not a very good baseball philosophy. Granted, going all in based on potential doesn't work either, its all about balance.

At 30 and 31, he had 2 of the best yrs of his career after having off yrs at 29 and 28. In 04 he had his second best SLG in his career and his best HR total. Your claims are way off. His 25 and 26 yr seasons were career yrs, but the last 2 yrs he has approached them, so basing his future performance on that fact is rather unbecoming of a smart person like yourself. Basically that logic would insinuate that he should have sucked for you guys the past 2 yrs and since he is now a yankee, he will fail. I dont buy it.

 

Haha, I'm going to take you to the bank on this one. We'll talk in two years. The Sox move to let Damon go was going to happen and I was calling for it in August when people started to hit the panic button as he batted like .230 for that month. He broke down in the second half because he plays with reckless abandon out there.

And Coco doesnt? So by your logic, Coco will break down anyday now because he plays with reckless abandon. Also, Damon was hurt, an injury that has gotten better, but isnt completely behind him. Happens. We have an open DH slot to rest him, the sox didnt, he'll be fresher than he was in Boston.

 

Guys like that do break down as they get older. His best days are behind him.

Is this Shaugnessy on this board?

 

I would take a Coco whose best days are undeniably infront of him. Go ahead, try and dispute that.

Okay I will. He is in a pressure cooker. He is coming off an unnecessary injury and he will face adversity when he returns. The kid has never felt pressure in his life and you are trying to tell me he will undeniably persevere? Nothing is undeniable.

 

Try and tell me that Damon's best days are ahead of him.

I dont care if his best yrs are ahead of him. Look at our offense right now. If he keeps us running like this, I'll be fine. Fact is, he is a major upgrade for us and we got him for $$, not a top 5 prospect.

 

And I'll take a farm system loaded with talent and a major league roster with youth on it rather than that retirement village in new york... except Robinson Cano who I think will be really great. Besides him. Wang... eh, can't base a staff around him, but hes good.

Our system is loaded with talent, it is just significantly younger than yours and hence it will be a little longer to develop.

 

They weren't in the AJ running. They were in the running to acquire him via trade during the season but they were never serious contenders for him in the offseason. You like to look at things from the outside only. A 5 year deal for a guy who is 28 who has had so many injuries especially relating to his arm - who has actually never proved healthy for an extended peroid of time - is a problem. Another one of those moves that is best when not made. Instead they go out and get Beckett, recently given a clean bill of health, never has had a problem with velocity whose most troublesome injuries have been blisters. Good move? Most likely.

The sox were rumored to be offering a 5 yr 40mil contract to Burnett yet learned that it wasnt enough and dropped out. It was a December rumor and nothing else was made of it. When it comes to rumors, I am the rumor monger.

[schillingouttheks]

Holy s*** guys. I'm way too lazy to read all of this. Damn

[YanksHater213]

Holy s*** guys. I'm way too lazy to read all of this. Damn

Second this... f***ing unnecessarily long...

[ksushi]

So you made my point for me, ok. As far as the last part, Wagner and Damon have been money in the bank for a few yrs now. Damon is 32, he isnt even close to slowing down. Wagner is one of the best closers in the game, he'll be worth his money. The sox and their fans have had a problem with judging when someone is in the twilight of their careers. On the flipside the yankees sometimes overestimate when they'll lose it, so lets not argue the point, two different philosophies and both of us are pervaded in the opposite. We cannot separate the bias, so lets not try to.

 

I made my point for me. My point is that there are smarter moves to make, more far sighted moves than those, but really Damon and Wagner are good players, I'm not knocking them. Those signings were good signings, but signings not with the future in mind. A club like the sox that has the future in mind takes a different route. The best move is not the move with the name all the time. My point, not yours.

 

 

 

If you ate, slept and shat baseball, you'd know Randy is signed through next yr. Also, a guy with a sub 4 era and a 5-0 record against our rivals is a success to this point. He's nearly halfway through the contract, so I think we can judge it....

 

Thanks for the little jab there pal. A sub four ERA can be found for a lesser cost.

 

 

Okay, hmm. Last 2 yrs-- 20 wins and 3.70 ERA for Johnson. 11-14 4.38ERA for Radke. Yep, smart money is on the worse pitcher

 

Desparate for some sort of point to make? Mm? I didn't compare Johnson and Radke against each other. Don't twist what I say around. I said that given the cost, in Johnson case players and some serious dough, I would have gone for Radke. I think the smart money is on Radke in that kind of situation. Keep the players, spend less cash. At the time much better move considering the kind of year he was coming off of. This is looking at the situation without looking at their '05 out put and I'm not saying Radke is the better pitcher.

 

He was signed to a minimum deal after a good yr in StL, but nobody would give him big money because of his age.

 

He is a bullpen pitcher hes not gonna get a huge money deal.

 

Well what you did was deal ERent, 11 mil, Damon, Mota, and Shoppach for Yanks 1st rounder, Coco, Riske, and Bard. Not worth it IMHO.

 

What you're leaving out is all the money we keep from letting Damon go, which could go towards Roger. Can't really dispute that either way. You're paying a big bill for what could be an ugly deal down the road while we get a very good centerfielder, free cash, a good reliever and a back up catcher. We dump a SS who wasn't working out, Mota with health problems - although I did like mota - and shoppach who likely we never would have taken advantage of, a total wash. The E-Rent signing put us on bad footing but I don't think that if given a second chance the Sox would do anything differently.

 

Also, Crisp has had 2 good yrs in relative obscurity.

 

What the hell does that mean, relative obscurity? Put the dictionary down, champ. You might hurt yourself. That doesn't mean anything.

 

 

He started strong on the road for you guys, now he is hurt and he's being cause coco glass? wimp? etc by the media.

 

I don't speak idiot, but I think you're trying to say he isn't going to react well to being called names? Alright...

 

How will he react when they probe into every corner of his life? You have no idea how, but you knew ow Damon would react. Also, Damon is 32, 32, he's not over the hill, not even close and a 4 yr deal is about as long as I'd have given him, and btw how long the sox were gonna give him when they were OUTBID!!!

 

I really think all that crap about the media probing into peoples lives in boston is bull. This isn't the paparazzi here, they're not breaking into his house or anything. No one is popping out from under his bed with a camera. Is there pressure? Sure. You can say that about anyone, you can ask that question about any guy. Its a boring point and you're reaching.

 

I was talking about the end of Damons deal, i got on a roll and just kinda left a few details out but not like you would have considered them anyways. And Damon will break down. He will produce, yeah, but he will lose a step. He is older. Crisp has more value. Thats my story and I'm stickin' to it. Younger is better. You'll never admit when your team has a flaw of any sort and you will cling on to those precious division titles and blah blah. You won't talk about baseball now, you'll talk about baseball back in 2000 and 99 and 98. Great.

 

As much as wonderboy wants to make it sound like it isnt, picking players off the trash heap is hit or miss, for every Ortiz there is a Jer. Giambi.

 

It is April 24th into their first seasons with their new teams. I'll take track record over potential any day, and currently I'd take Damon over Coco, that is all that matters. Keep denying it if you want to, but Coco is not the player Damon was for you guys on or off the field. Also, we gave up a draft pick and cash for Damon and you gave up one of the best prospects in baseball for him.

 

 

And Coco doesnt? So by your logic, Coco will break down anyday now because he plays with reckless abandon. Also, Damon was hurt, an injury that has gotten better, but isnt completely behind him. Happens. We have an open DH slot to rest him, the sox didnt, he'll be fresher than he was in Boston.

 

No, by my logic, Coco will lose a step and an edge when he is around 33, 34. No question about it. Coco is 26. 26. Damon and Coco are comporable players and Coco is 7 years younger.

 

Is this Shaugnessy on this board?

 

I will make a bet with you that he will not have a year this year better than lasts.

 

 

Okay I will. He is in a pressure cooker. He is coming off an unnecessary injury and he will face adversity when he returns. The kid has never felt pressure in his life and you are trying to tell me he will undeniably persevere? Nothing is undeniable.

 

You make it sound like he is coming off a collapsed lung that he got when he gasped at all the fans jeering at him and calling him bad names in his first time at Fenway. He broke a finger, you're making it sound like that is something for him to be ashamed of. Come on. He is a major leaguer and a good one. I am telling you he will continue to be just that.

 

 

I dont care if his best yrs are ahead of him. Look at our offense right now. If he keeps us running like this, I'll be fine. Fact is, he is a major upgrade for us and we got him for $$, not a top 5 prospect.

 

Yeah, can't top you there. I didn't like the price tag on Crisp and still don't but I think its worth it if we use that $$ we saved to sign Roger, which we will.

 

Our system is loaded with talent, it is just significantly younger than yours and hence it will be a little longer to develop.

I wouldn't quite say loaded. I know what you're saying though and in the lower levels the Yanks have some promise but they don't have anything to write home about just yet.

 

The sox were rumored to be offering a 5 yr 40mil contract to Burnett yet learned that it wasnt enough and dropped out. It was a December rumor and nothing else was made of it. When it comes to rumors, I am the rumor monger.

 

New s*** has come to light. I did not know that. Still I don't think they had any interest in throwing any serious change at him. 5 years 40 is big, but not compared to what he got.

[ksushi]

Yeah, me and river are gonna publish.

[TheRivernator]

Yeah, me and river are gonna publish.

 

I'll respond to your latest post when I get back from work. Lata bro....

[seabeachfred]

Ksuschi, I loved your post. It showed good insight, too, but you obviously left something out. The Red Sox have to be looking for trade possibilities right now. It is utterly ridiculous for us to suppose we can get by with a bum like Harris in CF and an over-the-hill hasbeen like Snow in our lineup for any length of time. Both have deteriorated beyond hope as hitters, and as it is we have a hitless wonder playing shortstop for us as it is and a worse hittter when Wakefield pitches catching him. The Yankees have a good hitter from one to nine, and unless our pitching is lights out it is going to be hard to overcome that---especially when we have a puss throwing junker like DiNardo as our fifth starter. We are going to have to make a few moves or we might be in a boatload of trouble.

[seabeachfred]

River, I despise the Yankees so this is not a biased post in favor of your team, but you a re right in what you said. My suggestion is that the Red Sox are going to have to upgrade their bench and pitching if they want to go all the way this year. It is utterly ridiculous for Epstein and Francona to even think that DiNardo is the answer to our fifth starter. He can't pitch worth s*** PERIOD. We have an automatic out playing shortstop for us, an automatic out behind the plate everytime Wakefield pitches, and an automatic out at first everytime Youk plays third for us. What's more, now we have a hitless bum like Harris playing CF. Quite a comedown from Damon. Epstein is going to have to get off his ass and address those weaknesses or we Red Sox fans are going to lament another lost season. Sorry my Red Sox colleagues but that is just the way it is. Anyone one of you who thinks guys like DiNardo, Snow, Harris and Bard are going to be assets to our team are living in a trance.