The Yankee Thread

[Jon_Papelboner]

When has moose ever won a game 1?

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

When has moose ever won a game 1?

Last year against the Angels.

[yankees228]

Well, if you are going to have one guy on the Yanks starting twice in a five game series, who do you want it to be? In my opinion, Moose is the clear cut choice.

[ARod2212]

I dread the thought of facing Santana and Liriano in 3/5 games in the ALDS. Let's go White Sox!

 

Some reports are saying that the oblique thing isn't that big of a deal and Pavano will pitch with it anyway. I still think the guy can be a part of this team in October (I certainly would prefer him over Wright or Lidle) but I need to see tangible results at the big league level before I give him that shot. He needs to win games against ML teams in September.

[yankees228]

I agree, that facing Minnesota in a 5 game series is certainly a difficult challenge, however I'm not so sure that I would rather face Chicago. First, we don't really know about Liriano. He's supposed to come back before the season ends, but who knows how his arm will hold up. He is a young kid who was clearly overworked this year. On top of that, because he was in the minors before this year, he is not used to pitching in September. Radke just had a cortisone shot in his right shoulder. He is getting up in age and who knows if his arm will hold through a grueling pennant race and into October. Santana, who I admit may be the best pitcher in baseball, will almost surely give you a fantastic game 1 but who knows after that. Gardenhire, who in his only two years in the postseason started Santana in game 4 on 3 days rest 2 years in a row. In 2003 he got lit up in game 4 and in 2004 he only lasted 5 innnings. If Liriano and Radke, or one of them, aren't 100 percent, I'm pretty confident he will start him on three days rest again.

 

Ignoring Santana's lack of success pitching on 3 days rest it is a historically a risky idea. As a Yankee fan you have to look no further than the last two times the Yankees tried it in the playoffs. Wells in game 1 of the 2003 World Series and Pettitte in game 5 of the 2000 ALDS. Wells was OK, but got the loss, and Pettitte was horrible. Obviously it has worked out, such as Schilling starting 3 times in the 2001 World Series, but I would take my chances against him on 3 days rest.

 

Chicago on the other hand my be a bit more difficult. They clearly have a much better offense then the Twins, especially if Thome comes back strong from his injury. Iguchi is a really good number 2 hitter, and there may not be a better 3-5 in baseball than Jim Thome, Paul Konerko, and Jermaine Dye. They have a catcher that handles the pitching staff extremely well and has a decent bat in AJ Pierzynski and a third basemen that has had a breakthrough season in Joe Crede. There bullpen, although not as good as last year, is still pretty good. Bobby Jenks is a very good closer, who has the ability to at times pitch up to 3 innings at a time. When Joe Nathan tried to go three innings against the Yankees he blew the most important game of his career (2004 ALDS Game 2). McCarthy and Cotts represents a very good lefty righty tandem as well. The pitching staff, although it has struggled, has showed it's potential, and you have to look no further than last years postseason. It may be the general concensus that because of Minnesota's hot pitching staff you do not want to face them but I would not sleep on the White Sox.

 

Long post, I know. If you actually read the whole thing, then thank you. I'm curious as to see what everyone else's opinion is on who they would rather face, the White Sox or the Twins. Especially because the Yankees are seemingly locked in to playing one or the other.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

It depends really. If Liriano comes back and is in the starting roation then I'd rather face the White Sox. If Liriano doesnt come back then I'd rather face the Twins. The Yankees have delt with Santana twice in the post season and they won both series because after Santana their roation isnt that good. Radke was once a good pitcher but because of the torn rotator cuff he isnt that good anymore. Silva sucks and who knows about Garza and Boof Bonser?.

 

As for the White Sox IMO everyone outside of Garland is burnt out and we kill Garland when we face him. Contreas has a 5.90 ERA since the all-star break. Garcia doesnt have the stuff he use to have. Buehrle never was a big strike out guy however his K rate is alarming and Vazquez is Vazquez. If the White Sox make it to the post season it wont be because of their pitching.

[Jon_Papelboner]

Last year against the Angels.

Oh yeah, I think cano hit a 3 run double in the first. But besides that win, I don't think he's ever won a game 1 for us. But he's our best option so what the hell. Also Wang needs to pitch at home if we make the playoffs. I don't know the exact numbers, but I remember him pitching a great deal better at home. Even though he did have a pretty good start at fenway.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Oh yeah, I think cano hit a 3 run double in the first. But besides that win, I don't think he's ever won a game 1 for us. But he's our best option so what the hell. Also Wang needs to pitch at home if we make the playoffs. I don't know the exact numbers, but I remember him pitching a great deal better at home. Even though he did have a pretty good start at fenway.

Yeah I knew what you were getting at. Mussina also won game 1 of the 2004 ALCS against Schilling. Prior to that Mussina lost game 1's against the Twins (twice in 04 and 03 both against Santana) and against Wakefield in the 2003 ALCS. He also lost against Schilling in game 1 of the 2001 WS. Man I have a memory like a steel trap.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

WTF, just reported on SC Carl Pavano has 2 broken ribs. He suffered the injury in a car accident on August 14.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Pavano reveals details of a car accident

 

Brian Cashman has just informed the media via conference call that Carl Pavano cracked two ribs in a car accident on Aug. 14 while in Florida on a rehab assignment. Pavano did not inform the organization until late Saturday night. That is in violation of his contract.

 

The call is still going on and Pavano will be on shortly. Cashman has said several times how "disappointed" and "frustrated" he is. Pavano apparently faces disciplinary action.

 

"Of course I'm angry," Cashman said.

 

Back in a while with some details. But this could be the last straw in terms of Pavano's time with the team.

http://www.lohud.com/blogs/lohudyankees.html

 

Hey this might be a big break (no pun intended) for the Yankees. Maybe they will be able to opt out of his contract.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Carl who?

[Jon_Papelboner]

Dunno, some guy they gave money to because he said he could pitch some innings. Then that guy kind of dissapeared.

[Optimist]

I wonder how much he paid some person to get into a car accident with him.

[a700hitter]

I heard that in addition to broken ribs, he bruised his buttocks again.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Thats the thing that I find weird. You didnt hear a thing about the car accident untill there was word that he might get the start this Thursday. All of a sudden my side hurts and broken ribs turn up. Its amazing, and it sounds like he is going to pitch through it and make a rehab start Wednesday.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I heard that in addition to broken ribs, he bruised his buttocks again.

I wonder how he bruised his buttocks .

[a700hitter]

I wonder how he bruised his buttocks .

Maybe he's a catcher and not a pitcher.

[Jon_Papelboner]

No, he's a theif.

[ARod2212]

I agree, that facing Minnesota in a 5 game series is certainly a difficult challenge, however I'm not so sure that I would rather face Chicago. First, we don't really know about Liriano. He's supposed to come back before the season ends, but who knows how his arm will hold up. He is a young kid who was clearly overworked this year. On top of that, because he was in the minors before this year, he is not used to pitching in September. Radke just had a cortisone shot in his right shoulder. He is getting up in age and who knows if his arm will hold through a grueling pennant race and into October. Santana, who I admit may be the best pitcher in baseball, will almost surely give you a fantastic game 1 but who knows after that. Gardenhire, who in his only two years in the postseason started Santana in game 4 on 3 days rest 2 years in a row. In 2003 he got lit up in game 4 and in 2004 he only lasted 5 innnings. If Liriano and Radke, or one of them, aren't 100 percent, I'm pretty confident he will start him on three days rest again.

 

Ignoring Santana's lack of success pitching on 3 days rest it is a historically a risky idea. As a Yankee fan you have to look no further than the last two times the Yankees tried it in the playoffs. Wells in game 1 of the 2003 World Series and Pettitte in game 5 of the 2000 ALDS. Wells was OK, but got the loss, and Pettitte was horrible. Obviously it has worked out, such as Schilling starting 3 times in the 2001 World Series, but I would take my chances against him on 3 days rest.

 

Chicago on the other hand my be a bit more difficult. They clearly have a much better offense then the Twins, especially if Thome comes back strong from his injury. Iguchi is a really good number 2 hitter, and there may not be a better 3-5 in baseball than Jim Thome, Paul Konerko, and Jermaine Dye. They have a catcher that handles the pitching staff extremely well and has a decent bat in AJ Pierzynski and a third basemen that has had a breakthrough season in Joe Crede. There bullpen, although not as good as last year, is still pretty good. Bobby Jenks is a very good closer, who has the ability to at times pitch up to 3 innings at a time. When Joe Nathan tried to go three innings against the Yankees he blew the most important game of his career (2004 ALDS Game 2). McCarthy and Cotts represents a very good lefty righty tandem as well. The pitching staff, although it has struggled, has showed it's potential, and you have to look no further than last years postseason. It may be the general concensus that because of Minnesota's hot pitching staff you do not want to face them but I would not sleep on the White Sox.

 

Long post, I know. If you actually read the whole thing, then thank you. I'm curious as to see what everyone else's opinion is on who they would rather face, the White Sox or the Twins. Especially because the Yankees are seemingly locked in to playing one or the other.

 

Obviously without Liriano the Twins are less intimidating, but assuming he is back they have one hell of a rotation. The falling apart old man Radke has a 3.12 ERA and a 1.06 ERA since the ASB. He's gotten his act together, and is a huge reason why they've managed to stay in the WC race with Liriano out. This is Radke's last season, and he's doing all he can to keep himself on the mound, taking cortizone shots instead of getting surgery on his shoulder. For the time being it's working, but it is possible it will catch up to him in October.

 

The Twins lineup is nothing to sneeze at, although could you imagine what they'd look like if the GM pulled the trigger on a deal for Soriano? Nontheless Mauer is leading the league in hitting, and his OPS is .948, Morneau is hitting the piss out of the ball with 32 homers and 110 RBIs. As a team they have the highest batting average in the MLB. Guys like Castillo, Punto, Cuddyer, Hunter comprise a good, balanced lineup.

 

While the White Sox probably have the best 3-4-5 in baseball, it's the pitching that makes me confident. Not one of those guys scare me right now, Contreras is not even close to being the same pitcher he was with a 5.90 ERA Post-ASB. Garland, Garcia, Buehrle all have BAA over .285 and Vazquez' ERA is Unit-esque at 5.06. In the playoffs I'll always take my chances on the team with weak pitching.

 

The Twins have two shut down pitchers and a third who has been phenomenal in the second half, while the White Sox have emminently hittable pitching. I'll take my chances with the defending champs in this one.

 

All that said, I really don't think it matters who we play. The Yankees should take the whole f***in' thing.

[yankees228]

Obviously without Liriano the Twins are less intimidating, but assuming he is back they have one hell of a rotation. The falling apart old man Radke has a 3.12 ERA and a 1.06 ERA since the ASB. He's gotten his act together, and is a huge reason why they've managed to stay in the WC race with Liriano out. This is Radke's last season, and he's doing all he can to keep himself on the mound, taking cortizone shots instead of getting surgery on his shoulder. For the time being it's working, but it is possible it will catch up to him in October.

 

The Twins lineup is nothing to sneeze at, although could you imagine what they'd look like if the GM pulled the trigger on a deal for Soriano? Nontheless Mauer is leading the league in hitting, and his OPS is .948, Morneau is hitting the piss out of the ball with 32 homers and 110 RBIs. As a team they have the highest batting average in the MLB. Guys like Castillo, Punto, Cuddyer, Hunter comprise a good, balanced lineup.

 

While the White Sox probably have the best 3-4-5 in baseball, it's the pitching that makes me confident. Not one of those guys scare me right now, Contreras is not even close to being the same pitcher he was with a 5.90 ERA Post-ASB. Garland, Garcia, Buehrle all have BAA over .285 and Vazquez' ERA is Unit-esque at 5.06. In the playoffs I'll always take my chances on the team with weak pitching.

 

The Twins have two shut down pitchers and a third who has been phenomenal in the second half, while the White Sox have emminently hittable pitching. I'll take my chances with the defending champs in this one.

 

All that said, I really don't think it matters who we play. The Yankees should take the whole f***in' thing.

 

I agree that the Twins have a good balanced and that if they get Liriano back and if Radke's should is not ailing him, the Twins are a force to be reckoned with. However, I think they have more problems then the Twins. Their lineup is balanced but young and inexperienced. A team with as little power as the Twins does not really scare me in playoffs. Yes, they get on base, but in the playoffs, when you're only facing the front end of teams rotations, it is tough to string to together 5, 6, or 7 hits that you would need to make a big inning. In terms of their starting pitching, Santana is a tremendous pitcher but has had mixed results in the playoffs. Even if Liriano comes back who's to say he will have the same arm strength he had in the first half of the season. Radke, as good as he has been since the all star break, with his age and his shoulder problem, really can fall apart at any moment. In my opinion the Twins bullpen is a bit shaky. In my last post, I alluded to Nathan, who in two playoff appearances with the Twins, has given up 2 runs in 3 1/3 innings pitched. It is a small sample size, but it is really all you have to go on in terms of him in a pressure spot. Rincon has been inconsistent, and has also been bad in the playoffs (Sierra 3 run homer).

[ORS]

I can't imagine why a Yankee fan would rather face a team, the Twins, that resembles a team that kills them, the Angels (pitching and D with less potent offense), in the playoffs vs. facing a team, the White Sox, that resembles a team they play well against, the Red Sox (all stick, no throw).

[yankees228]

I'm keeping two things in mind. You say that the Twins resemble the Angels, who kill the Yankees, but over the last 4 years the Yankees kill the Twins. The second one is that the White Sox are the defending world champions. As good a 3-5 as Mauer, Morneau, and Hunter has been, I would much rather have to go through that each time through the order than Thome, Konerko, and Dye. On top of that, even though he's had a great second half, I'd still rather face Nathan than Jenks. Nathan does not have great success against the Yankees in his career, and when the Yanks faced Jenks earlier this year, he was pretty much unhittable.

[ARod2212]

Whatever variables you want to throw in, the Twins still have the best pitcher in baseball starting twice for them. Also outside Rivera, Nathan may be the best closer in baseball. Jenks has been very mediocre.

 

This basically says it all, Jenks holds no edge other than more opportunities to pitch.

 

And I love the comparison to the Angels of last year, that is exactly right. Lineup that can beat you in a couple of ways and they get by on their starting pitching and bullpen. Except that the Angels didn't have Johan Santana and Frankie Liriano in their rotation. The '06 Twins > '05 Angels. I honestly don't care about the history with the Twins. Just because we beat them up in the past doesn't mean we will this time. We had a pretty good history against Boston up until '04.

 

The Twins are hot, have good pitching and weapons on offense, the White Sox have weapons on offense.

[Mr Crunchy]

in 04 joe nathan blew 2saves and the yanks got by minnesota 3-1

iffffffff

joe nathan dont blow??

and they didnt have liriano at the time they had carlo silva or lohse

and radke looks better now than he did in april

plus those bats are very live

theyre better than in 04 and if im not mistaken theyve got the best record in baseball since june 1st

i thought that theyd fold when liriano went down but their pen has been strong and radke stepped up

 

this should be an entertaining 5 weeks till 10/1

[yankees228]

Mr. Crunchy, Joe Nathan blew one save in that series, so to try to say that he is the only reason the Yankees beat Minnesota in that series is false.

 

In response to the comparison between the '05 Angels and the '06 Twins, I think the '05 Angels are significantly better. The Angels 1-5 was Figgins, Cabrera, Guerrero, Anderson, and Molina. That is better than Stewart, Castillo, Mauer, Morneau, and Hunter. While the 1 and 2 hitters in both orders are comparable, Guerrero and Anderson blow Mauer and Morneau out of the water. Mauer and Morneau have been a great tandem this year, but Guerrero may be the best player in all of baseball and Anderson may be the most underrated player in all of baseball. FOX had a stat on the Sunday game the Anderson is in the top 5 in hits since 1997. He has proven himself in the regular season and the post season over and over again. Hunter has had an average year in terms of RBI's and HR's and his OPS is .814. Molina, who got extremely hot last year in October, was simply a better hitter than Hunter.

If, and it is a big if, Liriano comes back healthy, I would certainly concede that the Twins have a better pitching staff, however the bullpen is not even comparable. In the playoffs many games are won and lost in the bullpen. That Angels team had a big advantage in that category. Rodriguez was dominant in the regular season and the playoffs last year, but with the success of Nathan this year i would say that the closer spot is a wash. But after that the Angels bullpen is leaps and bounds better. The middle relief of the '05 Angels was clearly the strength of that team and was the reason they beat the Yankees. Shields had a career year, and he was the to Angels as Mariano Rivera was to the '96 Yankees, a dominant 2 inning setup man. On top of that Escobars numbers in the second half and into the playoffs, as another setup man, were tremendous. Donnelly, was decent in a lesser role. The Twins, on the other hand have Juan Rincon and Jesse Crain as their two setup men. Rincon's WHIP is 1.26 and Crain's WHIP is 1.32. Against teams that hit with RISP, that is not going to cut it.

 

**Didn't mean to put the thumbs up icon.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I disagree with you saying Guerrero and Anderson blow Mauer and Morneau out of the water. Anderson has been in severe decline for a couple of years now. Anderson's OPS in 2005 is 215 points less then Morneau's OPS in 2006. That is a MASSIVE difference. Anderson isnt close to being the hitter Morneau is. Mauer doesnt hit as manny HR's as Guerrero however if you look at the stats Guerrero's OPS (.959) in 2005 is close enough to Mauer's 06 OPS (.948) not to offset the massive difference between Morneau and Anderson. In fact you can make an arguement that Mauer and Morneau blow Guerrero and Anderson out of the water.

[yankees228]

I agree with you that Morneau is better than Anderson, but I disagree that Guerrero is only slightly better than Mauer. Mauer, although off to an extroadinary start through the first 3-4 monthes of the season, has seen his numbers decrease steadily. I think Guerrero, who has put up amazing offensive numbers year after year deserves a little more respect then saying then his is slightly better than Mauer.

 

However, as I said, in my opinion the '05 Angels do not separate themselves from the '06 Twins in terms of offense, but I think they do it in terms of each team's bullpen.

[Mr Crunchy]

vlad is my favorite player in the game but you can get him out

anderson is underrated,no doubt and i think hes a tuffer out than vladdy

however

i think youre selling the twins guys a bit short,very short in fact

lets see how this plays out

 

as far as the 04 series went

i'd swear that the twins blew 2 save ops

ive been wrong before,twice in 06 alone

 

that was then

now??

now the twins are the hottest team in baseball and arent going away as many,myself included,thought they would

[yankees228]

Yeah, you're right, Rincon blew one in the 8th inning, when he gave up 4 runs including a 3 run homer to Sierra. But Nathan only blew one and technically it wasn't a save situation (came in when the game was still tied). Mauer and Morneau have had great years, I'm not disputing that, but as you said Anderson is extremely underrated and Guerrero is just amazing. You can get him out, but he is much tougher to get out, in my opinion, then either of the Twins guys. On top of that Mauer has only hit 10 home runs this year. He may improve his power numbers over the years to come, but he is not your prototypical 3 hole hitter. Guerrero is much better suited for that spot in the order.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I agree with you that Morneau is better than Anderson, but I disagree that Guerrero is only slightly better than Mauer. Mauer, although off to an extroadinary start through the first 3-4 monthes of the season, has seen his numbers decrease steadily. I think Guerrero, who has put up amazing offensive numbers year after year deserves a little more respect then saying then his is slightly better than Mauer.

 

However, as I said, in my opinion the '05 Angels do not separate themselves from the '06 Twins in terms of offense, but I think they do it in terms of each team's bullpen.

You could actually make a case Mauer has been better then Vlad this year ESP when you look at the positons they play. Mauer is more valuable IMO because he is producing a higher OPS then Vlad at catcher as opposed to a COF position. I'm not saying Vlad is a bad player I'm just saying Mauer has been better then Vlad THIS SEASON.