Spring Training game thread: Week of Feb 21

[moonslav59]

53 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

I have said all along that it’s Henry’s money to do with what he pleases. With his resources it IS being cheap to be in the middle of the pack. He’s prioritizing profits above winning but claims otherwise. Thats dishonest.

If he believes it, it's not being dishonest.

He's spent enough to make us a winning team again, so even on that front, it's not dishonesty.

If he said, "I'm going to spend enough to be a top 3 contender," that would be dishonesty, assuming he doesn't think we are top 3, now.

[moonslav59]

20 minutes ago, notin said:

1.  It’s old data.

2.  Thr range absolutely matters. As does the teams below them.  Where are the Yankees and Dodgers on this list?  If the 23rd highest percentage is spending, say, 15% on the roster, what percentage does the top team spend?  If it’s 17-19%, what exactly are you holding against them?

I’d like to see this ranking. I bet the higher revenue teams are mostly in the lower third, just like Boston…

On the 2 year old list, the Yanks were 11th, and maybe we are now 15th or 16th.

ATL had revenue over $500M, like the Sox and were 19th. 

CHC had more revenue than BOS, 2 yrs ago and were 26th ( 3 below BOS)

On that old list, 6 teams had revenue over $500M with 2 over $700M. If my adjustment puts us at #16, there would be 3 of those 6 teams ahead of us (LAD, PHI & NYY) and 2 below (ATL & CHC.)

That does not seem like the basis for such an extreme view, like Fred's.

Other big spenders back in 2024:

#13. $494M HOU is spending less and less

#14. $448M SFG is spending less.

#1. $444M NYM keep on spending, but not as nutty as before.

#6. $432M SDP

#8. $410M LAA- the laughing stock of MLB on spending

#7. $406M TEX- has not been spending a lot, recently.

 

 

[FredLynn]

1 hour ago, notin said:

Where is your data from?

If you use the 2024 team valuation against the Sox 2025 payroll (as they didnt have any 2025 revenue yet, or at a minimum the picture was incomplete), the Sox rank 11th in percentage of revenue (per Forbes) spent on payroll (per Sportra)…

11th is an improvement but they really should be upper third at the very least. Top 5 is even better.

[FredLynn]

58 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

If he believes it, it's not being dishonest.

He's spent enough to make us a winning team again, so even on that front, it's not dishonesty.

If he said, "I'm going to spend enough to be a top 3 contender," that would be dishonesty, assuming he doesn't think we are top 3, now.

It’s very hard to believe he is really committed to winning because he knows what the team needed (and didn’t get) this year as well as anyone. That talent was out there. He just wouldn’t pony up the cash to get it.

[jad]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

If he believes it, it's not being dishonest.

He's spent enough to make us a winning team again, so even on that front, it's not dishonesty.

If he said, "I'm going to spend enough to be a top 3 contender," that would be dishonesty, assuming he doesn't think we are top 3, now.

When did George Costanza join TalkSox?

[FredLynn]

1 hour ago, notin said:

1.  It’s old data.

2.  Thr range absolutely matters. As does the teams below them.  Where are the Yankees and Dodgers on this list?  If the 23rd highest percentage is spending, say, 15% on the roster, what percentage does the top team spend?  If it’s 17-19%, what exactly are you holding against them?

I’d like to see this ranking. I bet the higher revenue teams are mostly in the lower third, just like Boston…

I posted the ranking from a couple of years ago. I know Henry saved a bundle when SF volunteered to pay for all of Devers and other salaries came off the books too. The only two players of significance they signed were Suarez and Contreras-and Contreras was second tier.

[FredLynn]

2 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

We didn't sign Gray- we traded for him.

So, what lane did you pick? I assume you wanted a big bat over Suarez & IKF (like Alonso for about the same AAV.) That means it's on Brez and not the "low spending" by JH.

No, I wanted Suarez PLUS Alonso (over Contreras) and IKF can play somewhere else.

[moonslav59]

6 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

No, I wanted Suarez PLUS Alonso (over Contreras) and IKF can play somewhere else.

Suarez, Gray and Alonso?

No Contreras & IKF.

Would Suarez and Alonso (and Durbin) been enough for you to be okay with the winter?

[moonslav59]

12 minutes ago, jad said:

When did George Costanza join TalkSox?

Lying and dishonesty is defined by knowingly saying something you know is untrue.

If you believe something, even if it's not true. It's not a lie.

Being wrong and lying are not the same thing.

[moonslav59]

21 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

11th is an improvement but they really should be upper third at the very least. Top 5 is even better.

Only if it leads to a ring.

[FredLynn]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Suarez, Gray and Alonso?

No Contreras & IKF.

Would Suarez and Alonso (and Durbin) been enough for you to be okay with the winter?

I believe so but I’d have to think it through a bit. Doesn’t matter. We didn’t get Alonso.

[FredLynn]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

Lying and dishonesty is defined by knowingly saying something you know is untrue.

If you believe something, even if it's not true. It's not a lie.

Being wrong and lying are not the same thing.

Thats where we disagree: I think Henry knows perfectly well what he is doing : prioritizing profit over winning but still claiming that winning rules. He’s a smart guy. He can’t just come out and say “the Flops are a business and businesses are in business to make money”. That at least would be honest.

[moonslav59]

Tiny sample size...

Selected Sox ST OPS:

2.167 Duran (not a typo!)

1.563 Contreras

1.438 Rafaela

1.167 Gasper

1.113 Mayer

1.083 Durbin

1.067 Story

1.062 Monasterio

1.038 Narvaez

.900 Eaton

___________

.812 Ward

.785 Castro

___________

.666 Romero

.650 Hickey

.624 Campbell

,616 Anthony

___________

.533 IKF

.437 Abreu

.311 Wong

.295 Sogard

[moonslav59]

5 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

I believe so but I’d have to think it through a bit. Doesn’t matter. We didn’t get Alonso.

I was trying to make the point that JH spent enough to get Alonso & Suarez, but Brez spent it on Suarez, Gray, Contreras & IKF, instead. Then, maybe your blame is misplaced?

Coulda been...

$31M Alonso + $26M Suarez= $57M

$31M Alonso + $26M Suarez + $21M Gray = $77M

Actually is...

$26M Suarez+ $21M Gray+ $17M Contreras + $6M IKF= $70M

This is more than the first example and pretty close to the second example.

It looks like JH spent enough, but according to you, it's Brez who spent it poorly.

We could have gotten Alonso (DH) Contreras (1B) and Suarez (SP) for $74M.

 

[jad]

16 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Lying and dishonesty is defined by knowingly saying something you know is untrue.

If you believe something, even if it's not true. It's not a lie.

Being wrong and lying are not the same thing.

George!  What have you done to Moon?

[moonslav59]

Spring ERAs (3+ IP)

0.00 Whitlock & Guerrero

3.00 Watson

3.86 Early

5.79 Suarez

7.36 Tolle & Webb

12.00 Martinez

24.30 Bello

Selected 2-2.2 IP

0.00 Crochet, Weissert, Song & Sansone

4.50 Kelly

1.2 IP

0.00 Chapman, Oviedo, Uberstine & Moran

16.20 Slaten

 

[moonslav59]

5 minutes ago, jad said:

George!  What have you done to Moon?

The truth was around long before TV was even invented and the shrinkage factor, too.

[FredLynn]

13 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I was trying to make the point that JH spent enough to get Alonso & Suarez, but Brez spent it on Suarez, Gray, Contreras & IKF, instead. Then, maybe your blame is misplaced?

Coulda been...

$31M Alonso + $26M Suarez= $57M

$31M Alonso + $26M Suarez + $21M Gray = $77M

Actually is...

$26M Suarez+ $21M Gray+ $17M Contreras + $6M IKF= $70M

This is more than the first example and pretty close to the second example.

It looks like JH spent enough, but according to you, it's Brez who spent it poorly.

We could have gotten Alonso (DH) Contreras (1B) and Suarez (SP) for $74M.

 

It’s obvious that Breslow has done a poor job in allocating the money available to him. That doesn’t mean everything he did sucked. But his job performance has left much to be desired. Case in point: being neither buyers nor sellers at the last couple of TDs. Just marked time. Henry needs to allocate more money for high end talent and Breslow should be fired for not doing his job in obtaining it.

[jad]

In my experience, it is impossible to tell the difference between lying and error.  You never know what is going on in someone else's mind; furthermore, it's difficult to tell what's going on in your own.  When you speak, as public figures always do, in your own self-interest, that's all that matters, and determining whether you are lying or simply wrong is impossible.

[moonslav59]

9 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

It’s obvious that Breslow has done a poor job in allocating the money available to him. That doesn’t mean everything he did sucked. But his job performance has left much to be desired. Case in point: being neither buyers nor sellers at the last couple of TDs. Just marked time. Henry needs to allocate more money for high end talent and Breslow should be fired for not doing his job in obtaining it.

It's not obvious, as the team record and outlook has greatly improved- mistakes and all.

It seems to me, nothing can ever satisfy you.

JH spent enough to get the guys you wanted, but it doesn't change anything for you.

Brez changed the whole Sox system in about 2 years, and he has made the Sox a much better team. No GM is perfect, but that is something you think is possible.

[moonslav59]

12 minutes ago, jad said:

In my experience, it is impossible to tell the difference between lying and error.  You never know what is going on in someone else's mind; furthermore, it's difficult to tell what's going on in your own.  When you speak, as public figures always do, in your own self-interest, that's all that matters, and determining whether you are lying or simply wrong is impossible.

I agree, but I don't call someone a liar, unless I know they are one.

IMO, I think JH actually thinks he is doing a lot to improve the team. I think the 2021 season fooled him into thinking we could win without spending a ton. I'm not sure of this, but there is enough doubt to not make bold statements about someone.

Once it became apparent we could not win without spending, and I think we all agree it took to long to realize that, JH started spending bigly, again. We can disagree on weather it's been enough or not, and I'd agree it should have been more, but I see more dishonesty in saying JH doesn't spend than in JH saying he's making us competitive.

I've called Fred out numerous times on his not spending statement, but he knowingly kept saying a falsehood over and over again. Who is being dishonest, here?

 

[UtahSox]

23 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Suarez, Gray and Alonso?

No Contreras & IKF.

Would Suarez and Alonso (and Durbin) been enough for you to be okay with the winter?

I honestly think we ended up in a decent spot…. But my best case scenarios changed at different points in offseason after each big event here is what I wanted.

My thoughts going into winter based on Breslow comments:
I envisioned…… Bregman + Alonso + SP2 ( i figured via trade)

Event 1. after Alonso signed w Orioles:

I wanted…… Bregman+ Marte+ trade for SP2 +Gray as SP3

Event 2. after Contreras came over: 

(My Favorite idea) I wanted: Bregman+ Marte+ Contreras+ trade for sp2+ Gray as SP3 

Event 3. after Marte was ruled out of trade: 

I was willing to live with: Bregman + Contreras+ trade for SP2+ Gray

Event 4. after Bregman signed with Cubs:

**Darkness**

Event 5. after R Suarez signed w/ us:

Paredes+ Contreras+ Suarez+ Gray+ trade for Hoerner

Event 6. after Durbin Trade:

Not stoked but also not disappointed.

still really want Marte to Paredes (Especially if Romy is out for season)

 

[FredLynn]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

It's not obvious, as the team record and outlook has greatly improved- mistakes and all.

It seems to me, nothing can ever satisfy you.

JH spent enough to get the guys you wanted, but it doesn't change anything for you.

Brez changed the whole Sox system in about 2 years, and he has made the Sox a much better team. No GM is perfect, but that is something you think is possible.

The bottom line is that we didn’t end up with the talent to be considered serious contenders for a ring this year despite having our ace and a stud hitter to anchor the lineup. Part of the blame goes to Henry for being cheap (ie being unwilling to spend enough money) and part of the blame goes to Breslow for not spending the available money wisely-and for being an idiot the past two TDs. Not looking for perfection, just “better” will do. 

[notin]

1 hour ago, FredLynn said:

It’s obvious that Breslow has done a poor job in allocating the money available to him. That doesn’t mean everything he did sucked. But his job performance has left much to be desired. Case in point: being neither buyers nor sellers at the last couple of TDs. Just marked time. Henry needs to allocate more money for high end talent and Breslow should be fired for not doing his job in obtaining it.

If only the Sox weren’t so cheap and Breslow spent his money properly, like other teams, so that Boston, too, could have $72mill tied up in Mike Trout and Anthony Rendon.  
 

Angels’ fans are so lucky to have a team run the right way!

[notin]

1 hour ago, UtahSox said:

I honestly think we ended up in a decent spot…. But my best case scenarios changed at different points in offseason after each big event here is what I wanted.

My thoughts going into winter based on Breslow comments:
I envisioned…… Bregman + Alonso + SP2 ( i figured via trade)

Event 1. after Alonso signed w Orioles:

I wanted…… Bregman+ Marte+ trade for SP2 +Gray as SP3

Event 2. after Contreras came over: 

(My Favorite idea) I wanted: Bregman+ Marte+ Contreras+ trade for sp2+ Gray as SP3 

Event 3. after Marte was ruled out of trade: 

I was willing to live with: Bregman + Contreras+ trade for SP2+ Gray

Event 4. after Bregman signed with Cubs:

**Darkness**

Event 5. after R Suarez signed w/ us:

Paredes+ Contreras+ Suarez+ Gray+ trade for Hoerner

Event 6. after Durbin Trade:

Not stoked but also not disappointed.

still really want Marte to Paredes (Especially if Romy is out for season)

 

So just in utility infielder Romy Gonzalez - DFAd from the worst team in MLB history two years ago - is injured for the season, the Sox should acquire an All Star infielder?

Maybe they should also get Cal Raleigh, just in case Connor Wong gets hurt…

[FredLynn]

22 minutes ago, notin said:

If only the Sox weren’t so cheap and Breslow spent his money properly, like other teams, so that Boston, too, could have $72mill tied up in Mike Trout and Anthony Rendon.  
 

Angels’ fans are so lucky to have a team run the right way!

That argument fails because I really don’t care what other teams do, only that the Flops spend the money and build the roster so that the are factors in competing for a ring nearly every year. They are failing to meet those expectations.

[UtahSox]

16 minutes ago, notin said:

So just in utility infielder Romy Gonzalez - DFAd from the worst team in MLB history two years ago - is injured for the season, the Sox should acquire an All Star infielder?

Maybe they should also get Cal Raleigh, just in case Connor Wong gets hurt…

Yeah bro….. as always you nailed that one with your facetiousness. Let me add to it. “Maybe we should get Fernando Tatis in case Yoshida gets a boo boo”

Marte and Paredes are both (somewhat) available.

And WITH Romy we already had some major trepidation vs LHP.  Now without him it’s a big hole……… Why? Rafaela (reverse splits), Roman, Duran, Abreu all hit RHP better than LHP by a decent margin, Marcelo hit RHP light years better than LHP, And Durbin hits RHP and LHP very similar. As I’ve said since Day 1 I’m far from sold on Mayer so I would trade him to solidify what I see as a major weakness in our lineup. 
 

[notin]

2 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

The truth was around long before TV was even invented and the shrinkage factor, too.

Now I know you're lying...

[notin]

37 minutes ago, UtahSox said:

Yeah bro….. as always you nailed that one with your facetiousness. Let me add to it. “Maybe we should get Fernando Tatis in case Yoshida gets a boo boo”

Marte and Paredes are both (somewhat) available.

And WITH Romy we already had some major trepidation vs LHP.  Now without him it’s a big hole……… Why? Rafaela (reverse splits), Roman, Duran, Abreu all hit RHP better than LHP by a decent margin, Marcelo hit RHP light years better than LHP, And Durbin hits RHP and LHP very similar. As I’ve said since Day 1 I’m far from sold on Mayer so I would trade him to solidify what I see as a major weakness in our lineup. 
 

I look at it this way.   In the first series, we will very likely face two LHPs - Nick Lodolo and Andrew Abbott.   Lodolo is one of the nastiest LHPs in MLB, and Abbott looks like an up and coming star himself.   

These may not be the types of LHPs you can solve merely by adding Romy Gonzalez to your lineup.   Romy has his uses against the bulk of the LHPs in MLB.  But the creme de la creme did not get to be so elite by struggling against mediocre right-handed hitters..

After Abbott, the Sox face Houston and San Diego, both of whom appear to have no LHPs in their rotations.

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, FredLynn said:

That argument fails because I really don’t care what other teams do

Then what is the 23rd ranking all about? Rankings are all about our place among the other 29 teams.