Sox to acquire Sonny Gray

[moonslav59]

17 minutes ago, harmony said:

Steamer projects Sonny Gray 10th among all pitchers in 2026 WAR, ahead of Dylan Cease, Framber Valdez, Max Fried, Joe Ryan and Freddy Peralta, among others:

https://www.fangraphs.com/projections?type=steamer&stats=pit&pos=&team=0&players=0&lg=all&z=1764128644&sortcol=&sortdir=desc&pageitems=30&statgroup=dashboard&fantasypreset=dashboard

 

Yes, I saw that.

Gray has a lot of hope- certainly more than Buehler, Kluber and Richards combined.

I'm okay with the deal, but not if it means skimping on bats.

[FredLynn]

12 hours ago, JoeBrady said:

That's ridiculous.  FG projects him to be one of the best pitchers in BB with a 3.45 ERA and a 4.0 WAR.

Your post is ridiculous. I don't care what his PROJECTIONS are. I care what he has done. Last year his ERA was 4.28, BELOW average. We don't need another BELOW AVERAGE pitcher on the staff, unless we are going to use him as a #4-5 SP of which there are already several candidates on staff. He's also getting long in the tooth. Getting Sonny Gray does nothing to address our major needs.

[FredLynn]

18 hours ago, Jasonbay44 said:

If a teams #4 or 5 is Sonny gray, they have an elite rotation. He’s better than that 

Thats what he will be-a #4-5 SP. Still need a solid #2. And a power hitting IF.

[notin]

9 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Your post is ridiculous. I don't care what his PROJECTIONS are. I care what he has done. Last year his ERA was 4.28, BELOW average. We don't need another BELOW AVERAGE pitcher on the staff, unless we are going to use him as a #4-5 SP of which there are already several candidates on staff. He's also getting long in the tooth. Getting Sonny Gray does nothing to address our major needs.

1.  ERA isnt a good measure as it depends on ballpark and defense.  Gray made 32 starts, threw 180 IP, lead the league in K/BB.

2. Are you saying that the Sox should only make moves that address major needs? And no, they cannot prioritize them because they can’t control when players sign and when teams deal.  Make moves when you can.

The Sox did improve their pitching staff. It’s only November.  No one else in the AL East has done anything better than Jake Fraley…

[notin]

9 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Thats what he will be-a #4-5 SP. Still need a solid #2. And a power hitting IF.

Too bad they’re done making moves.  Breslow has said he only adds one player every 6 months.  It’s a superstition, but one he lives by…

[FredLynn]

3 minutes ago, notin said:

Too bad they’re done making moves.  Breslow has said he only adds one player every 6 months.  It’s a superstition, but one he lives by…

The history of this team, for the most part, is that they are dumpster divers. Gray is another example. I suspect that he will be presented as our #2 SP that we need by management. Thats the way they work, on the cheap. I think that with the right moves-which are likely to be expensive-this team could make a deep playoff run and even contend for a ring. 

But not if they keep dumpster diving.

[FredLynn]

19 minutes ago, notin said:

1.  ERA isnt a good measure as it depends on ballpark and defense.  Gray made 32 starts, threw 180 IP, lead the league in K/BB.

2. Are you saying that the Sox should only make moves that address major needs? And no, they cannot prioritize them because they can’t control when players sign and when teams deal.  Make moves when you can.

The Sox did improve their pitching staff. It’s only November.  No one else in the AL East has done anything better than Jake Fraley…

I did not say that at all. In fact, what I did say is that this move did nothing to address what everyone knows are our major needs. Its fluff. A minor improvement, maybe. But we need much more. And over the last several years what we all have seen is, with rare exceptions, signing reclamation projects. I'll believe Henry is serious about making the 2026 Sox a contender when I see evidence of it.

BTW, Gray's ERA+ last year was 96-BELOW average. I think thats a good indication of the type of pitcher they got.

[mvp 78]

18 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Your post is ridiculous. I don't care what his PROJECTIONS are. I care what he has done. Last year his ERA was 4.28, BELOW average. We don't need another BELOW AVERAGE pitcher on the staff, unless we are going to use him as a #4-5 SP of which there are already several candidates on staff. He's also getting long in the tooth. Getting Sonny Gray does nothing to address our major needs.

Back to back seasons with 200+ k's and under 40 bb's. If all you are looking at is ERA, you aren't looking at the whole story. Better FIP and WHIP than Bello last year. 

[mvp 78]

19 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Thats what he will be-a #4-5 SP. Still need a solid #2. And a power hitting IF.

And you also said they'd flop. Seems like your PROJECTIONS need some tweaking! 🤔

[mvp 78]

9 minutes ago, notin said:

Too bad they’re done making moves.  Breslow has said he only adds one player every 6 months.  It’s a superstition, but one he lives by…

I heard it's the last move he's going to make his entire tenure! This is it folx! 

[notin]

3 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

I did not say that at all. In fact, what I did say is that this move did nothing to address what everyone knows are our major needs. Its fluff. A minor improvement, maybe. But we need much more. And over the last several years what we all have seen is, with rare exceptions, signing reclamation projects. I'll believe Henry is serious about making the 2026 Sox a contender when I see evidence of it.

So Bregman and Crochet were reclamation projects?

[FredLynn]

2 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

And you also said they'd flop. Seems like your PROJECTIONS need some tweaking! 🤔

Nonetheless, they have not addressed the major needs of the 2026 team. We all know what they are. I think they are going to try to pass Gray off as our #2 SP without obtaining a real #2. I could be wrong about that too, but if history is our guide that is exactly what they will do.

[FredLynn]

Just now, notin said:

So Bregman and Crochet were reclamation projects?

Bregman did great during the stretch run, didn't he. Never got injured or missed a game, right? 

Crochet is the exception and we TRADED for him. Its not evidence that Henry has loosened his purse strings.

[notin]

2 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Bregman did great during the stretch run, didn't he. Never got injured or missed a game, right? 

Crochet is the exception and we TRADED for him. Its not evidence that Henry has loosened his purse strings.

And curse Breslow for acquiring a player who got injured!! It’s 2026! Can’t we get a CBO who knows better already?

What does it matter if the player was acquired via trade or free agency? Crochet addressed a major need.  I think some people are more infatuated with Henry spending than they are with the team improving. (Also Crochet’s extension was not free.)

The Sox last year built a team that got to the postseason.  They didn’t do it in one day.  A year ago today, their biggest move of the off-season to date was singing Justin Wilson.  We’re already ahead of that pace…

[FredLynn]

8 minutes ago, notin said:

And curse Breslow for acquiring a player who got injured!! It’s 2026! Can’t we get a CBO who knows better already?

What does it matter if the player was acquired via trade or free agency? Crochet addressed a major need.  I think some people are more infatuated with Henry spending than they are with the team improving. (Also Crochet’s extension was not free.)

The Sox last year built a team that got to the postseason.  They didn’t do it in one day.  A year ago today, their biggest move of the off-season to date was singing Justin Wilson.  We’re already ahead of that pace…

Let me be clear: I have no problem with signing the elderly Gray. Its fine for depth-as long as they don't try to pass him off as what we really need, a solid SP behind Crochet. I also want to see evidence that Henry is willing to spend what it takes to contruct a team that contends for a ring. Last season I was OK with just making the playoffs. This year there is enough talent to BUILD ON to construct a contender. I hope Henry's penurious imitation doesn't stand in the way, again. And Bregman, with his injury history, is not the answer for a power hitting IF. We can sign him AND sign someone like Alonso, but I don't want to see them passing off Bregman as the answer to what we really need.

[mvp 78]

2 minutes ago, notin said:

So Bregman and Crochet were reclamation projects?

How can anyone possibly complain about the 2025 offseason moves? 

Crochet - All Star, CY runner up

Chapman - All Star, reliever of the year

Bregman - All Star

Wilson - solid reliever

Narvaez - starting catcher that exceeded expectations

 

[notin]

1 minute ago, FredLynn said:

Let me be clear: I have no problem with signing the elderly Gray. Its fine for depth-as long as they don't try to pass him off as what we really need, a solid SP behind Crochet. I also want to see evidence that Henry is willing to spend what it takes to contruct a team that contends for a ring. Last season I was OK with just making the playoffs. This year there is enough talent to BUILD ON to construct a contender. I hope Henry's penurious imitation doesn't stand in the way, again.

Considering big moves before Thanksgiving are getting rare, we are off to a good start.

But I think I at a bare minimum wait until pitchers and catchers report before calling the off-season a bust…

[notin]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

How can anyone possibly complain about the 2025 offseason moves? 

Crochet - All Star, CY runner up

Chapman - All Star, reliever of the year

Bregman - All Star

Wilson - solid reliever

Narvaez - starting catcher that exceeded expectations

 

Because Henry didn’t SPEND!!

Sure they got good players who contributed.  But are you willing to settle for that?  An off-season is measured by CASH SPENT.  You should know that by now…

[FredLynn]

Just now, notin said:

Considering big moves before Thanksgiving are getting rare, we are off to a good start.

But I think I at a bare minimum wait until pitchers and catchers report before calling the off-season a bust…

Well the signing of Gray certainly keeps that tradition. It was not a "big move". I'm not going to complain about the moves the team makes until I see the final product. Just a bit concerned about the history of how they have done business over the last several years-on the cheap. We all know it.

[FredLynn]

1 minute ago, notin said:

Because Henry didn’t SPEND!!

Sure they got good players who contributed.  But are you willing to settle for that?  An off-season is measured by CASH SPENT.  You should know that by now…

Its measured by CASH SPENT WISELY as well as freely. Henry has been treating the Sox as a small market team when in fact they are a major player. When you sign dumpster grade reclamation projects over and over again the results are predictable. How did we do the for the five years prior to last year?

[Old Red]

3 minutes ago, notin said:

Because Henry didn’t SPEND!!

Sure they got good players who contributed.  But are you willing to settle for that?  An off-season is measured by CASH SPENT.  You should know that by now…

Seems I heard SHAM used quite often on here the past few years, because of that very reason.

[notin]

10 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

It’s measured by CASH SPENT WISELY as well as freely. Henry has been treating the Sox as a small market team when in fact they are a major player. When you sign dumpster grade reclamation projects over and over again the results are predictable. How did we do the for the five years prior to last year?

353-355 with an ALCS appearance.

Take out 2020 and they were 329-319 with an ALCS appearance in the previous four…

[mvp 78]

21 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Well the signing of Gray certainly keeps that tradition. It was not a "big move". I'm not going to complain about the moves the team makes until I see the final product. Just a bit concerned about the history of how they have done business over the last several years-on the cheap. We all know it.

You've already started complaining? 

[mvp 78]

20 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Its measured by CASH SPENT WISELY as well as freely. Henry has been treating the Sox as a small market team when in fact they are a major player. When you sign dumpster grade reclamation projects over and over again the results are predictable. How did we do the for the five years prior to last year?

They made the ALCS in '21 from what I remember. 

[mvp 78]

6 minutes ago, notin said:

Take out 2020 

Never. 

Jose Peraza

Chris Mazza

Zack Godley

Josh Osich

Dylan Covey

Andrew Triggs

We were all witnesses. swoosh

[FredLynn]

9 minutes ago, notin said:

353-355 with an ALCS appearance.

Take out 2020 and they were 329-319 with an ALCS appearance in the previous four…

Take out 2020? Let’s take out 2025 instead.

Regardless, that record reeks of mediocrity. I expect the team to compete for a playoff spot nearly every year. That hasn’t happened, in part due to dumpster diving and money poorly spent-and not enough of it. If recent history is a guide they’ll try to pass off Gray as a significant signing and claim that they were “very interested” in signing better players but that it “just didn’t work out”.

[FredLynn]

9 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

You've already started complaining? 

I’m “commenting”.

[Old Red]

5 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Take out 2020? Let’s take out 2025 instead.

Regardless, that record reeks of mediocrity. I expect the team to compete for a playoff spot nearly every year. That hasn’t happened, in part due to dumpster diving and money poorly spent-and not enough of it. If recent history is a guide they’ll try to pass off Gray as a significant signing and claim that they were “very interested” in signing better players but that it “just didn’t work out”.

I would say 2021 was the outlier, and not 2025. 22-24 was a struggle to get to 500, which they finally did in 24, but 22-23 was losing last place in the division teams.🤮

[notin]

48 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Take out 2020? Let’s take out 2025 instead.

Regardless, that record reeks of mediocrity. I expect the team to compete for a playoff spot nearly every year. That hasn’t happened, in part due to dumpster diving and money poorly spent-and not enough of it. If recent history is a guide they’ll try to pass off Gray as a significant signing and claim that they were “very interested” in signing better players but that it “just didn’t work out”.

I did take out 2025.  I looked at 2020-2024, the 5 years before 2025.  
 

But 2020 was an abbreviated season with no real effort.  It doesn’t reveal much…

[drewski6]

Multiple things can be true, I dont think its crazy to be disappointed in the way the Red Sox have operated last 5 or so years, and its well documented that they were only willing to spend money, if they could shed money.

I dont think its crazy to point to the fact that Crochet was traded for, and extended with 2 years of team control which lowered the AAV on the extension. Essentially giving up prospects/value to get an ace at an affordable AAV vs just getting an ace.  Id love to have Kyle Teel right now. However, this overlooks that to "spend" the right guys have to be there.  And Crochet is/was much better than anyone they could have signed in free agency.

Im not sure how much the 2 years remaining on the deal, meaning they could extend at a non top rate AAV factored into getting Crochet vs purely being enamored with his talent.

But despite what the red sox say (the opposite) they have been cautious with the payroll these last 5 years, and its led to some frustrating roster decisions and thats a lot why we've been below average (and thats being generous) since 2018.  One ALCS appearance doesnt change that.

I dont think its as much a failure to spend money as it is a complacency with just rolling over the same mediocre players year after year, but thats gotten better since Breslow. Shape up or get shipped out.  Dudes are gonna get squeezed on an improving ballclub and Yoshida and Casas are next.