It's Time to Can Cora

[mvp 78]

2 minutes ago, Old Red said:

It did happen x2 that I remember. I won’t mention any names, but they can talk for themselves if they want to.

Were they joking that Bogey was a bad teammate, or did they legit think he was a bad teammate? What specifically was the behavior that made him a bad teammate? 

[Old Red]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

Were they joking that Bogey was a bad teammate, or did they legit think he was a bad teammate? What specifically was the behavior that made him a bad teammate? 

Because they thought that Bogey should move to 2B, because Story who had just signed was a better SS even though I never heard of Cora talk about it.

[moonslav59]

5 minutes ago, Old Red said:

It did happen x2 that I remember. I won’t mention any names, but they can talk for themselves if they want to.

Some said he wasn't good on D.

Some asked where is the leadership, when the team kept imploding, but most knew the roster was being decimated and did not blame Bogey, JD, or others for our lack of winning. Most blamed Bloom and or JH x 22.

[Old Red]

11 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

You have the link that says Cora specifically asked Devers to play 1B?

I have based my opinion all along on the Raffy situation that Cora didn’t want Raffy at 1B, and didn’t think he would be a good 1B, and that is why to my knowledge that Cora never asked Raffy to play 1B, and said he wasn’t going to. If Cora would have told Raffy to play 1B, and Raffy had the same stance as he did with Brez I would have changed my opinion to what most on here have said about Raffy.

[Maxbialystock]

6 minutes ago, Old Red said:

I have based my opinion all along on the Raffy situation that Cora didn’t want Raffy at 1B, and didn’t think he would be a good 1B, and that is why to my knowledge that Cora never asked Raffy to play 1B, and said he wasn’t going to. If Cora would have told Raffy to play 1B, and Raffy had the same stance as he did with Brez I would have changed my opinion to what most on here have said about Raffy.

That makes sense to me.  Devers was terrific as the DH, and his bat was missed in September after Anthony went on the IL.  I think mvp 78 argues that the time to move Devers to 1b was after this season.  However, that would have meant paying for 3 DH's--Ref, Yoshida, and Devers--whose total salary was (until Devers left) was around $50M.  

So it did make sense to move Devers to 1b when Casas went down and only Cora could have pulled that off.  

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

You think that someone who went to Yale would be pretentious?!?!?

Have you ever heard any other Red Sox CBO call baseball a zero-sum game, like Brez did at Monday's presser when he didn't come up for air for an hour? Some zeroes didn't even interview for the job, presumably because they couldn't BS fast enough to fool anyone... (or maybe they just didn't feel like shoveling it).

"While scoring runs... this is kind of a zero-sum game, and it doesn't really matter how you score," said Brez, "but in the postseason, a lot of runs come via the home run because the pitching is so dominant."

So then it does matter -- for a franchise that is all about winning CHAMPIONSHIPS (plural), Craig.

Home runs are huge in the postseason -- when clubs face pitching at least good enough to win enough to qualify... and one longball off one mistake is more apt to happen than the three singles it may take to score a single run. Someone's one run may be easier than someone else's, depending on who's really built for October.

[mvp 78]

1 hour ago, Old Red said:

Because they thought that Bogey should move to 2B, because Story who had just signed was a better SS even though I never heard of Cora talk about it.

Funny because Xander went out and had a great defensive season that year. Shows what posters know.

[mvp 78]

10 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Have you ever heard any other Red Sox CBO call baseball a zero-sum game, like Brez did at Monday's presser when he didn't come up for air for an hour?

It's what happens when you OD on apizza. 

[Kimmi]

20 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

One thing in Devers' favor was that apparently he wasn't asked to play 1B by his manager.

I'm not big on the blame game, so I'll just call it a push.

I'm happy with the new direction the team has taken from the farm to the 40 to the 26.

I blame Devers for selling out his teammates.  That was wrong, regardless of the circumstances leading up to it.

I am happy with the direction the team has taken also.  Even if there had been no controversy, I am relieved to be rid of Devers' contract.  Let's see if the FO makes good on its word to "repurpose" some of that money, beyond extending some of their young players.

[Old Red]

2 minutes ago, Kimmi said:

I blame Devers for selling out his teammates.  That was wrong, regardless of the circumstances leading up to it.

I am happy with the direction the team has taken also.  Even if there had been no controversy, I am relieved to be rid of Devers' contract.  Let's see if the FO makes good on its word to "repurpose" some of that money, beyond extending some of their young players.

But there were so many on here that shouted Devers Forevers, Devers Forever, Devers Forever!🤔

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, Old Red said:

I have based my opinion all along on the Raffy situation that Cora didn’t want Raffy at 1B, and didn’t think he would be a good 1B, and that is why to my knowledge that Cora never asked Raffy to play 1B, and said he wasn’t going to. If Cora would have told Raffy to play 1B, and Raffy had the same stance as he did with Brez I would have changed my opinion to what most on here have said about Raffy.

That very well may be true. Personally, I can't think anyone would think Casas is a better 1Bman than devers could be, but that is all speculation on my part. We do know Cora has had certain strong opinions on players and positions and is fiercely loyal to many players. He once called Kike one of the best defensive SSs in MLB. He resisted moving Bogey off SS, when we signed Story. I do think he did not want to upset Devers by moving him off 3B, but he ended up asking him to DH, so I can't help but raise an eyebrow over not just telling him it's 1B not DH. The fact that he apparently never even asked Devers to play 1B, let alone tell him to, supports your opinion.

It was strange that Cora initially floated the idea of Bregman at 2B and devers at 3B and even Bregman okay'd the idea, but he did move off that position- perhaps with a nudge from Brez. It looked like a "nudge" was not going to be enough to convince Cora to get Devers to try 1B. The whole situation was weird, to me. How often do you see a GM going to speak to a player s about a position move? Then , some reports said Brez never even asked him to play 1B; he just told him they'd like him to play there.

Seems like there were just too many unknowns to throw most of the blame on one guy. I know some say 50+% is on Devers, while some seem to think Cora is the main guy to blame. I'm not sure I need to know. I'm kinda glad we moved on, but only if we can add a mega bat to take his slot, and no, it's not Anthony. Anthony is the boost we need to improve- not the boost we needed to maybe stay even.

[Kimmi]

2 hours ago, drewski6 said:

I agree. Bonds was also a bad teammate, as was Ted Williams, as was Michael Jordan. Draymond Green punches his teammates. So does ex carolina wr Steve smith.  Manny was a bad teammate.

If you think Devers should do everything in his power to make the team better, that should also apply to Breslow. And the team with Devers at DH was better than no Devers. We might even still be playing right now.  Of course , it would have quieted down. It had mostly quieted down.  Winning cures.

 

We'll have no way of ever knowing, but I'm not sure that the team with Devers at DH would have been better than the team with no Devers.  We might still be playing now, but we might just as easily not have made the playoffs.  On paper, sure, Devers made the team better offensively.  But I don't think you can discount the impact of the trade on the atmosphere inside the clubhouse.

 

[Old Red]

13 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Funny because Xander went out and had a great defensive season that year. Shows what posters know.

Or think they know. Being in a contract year might have been a motivation also. It certainly turned out better than expected that’s for sure.

[Old Red]

5 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

That very well may be true. Personally, I can't think anyone would think Casas is a better 1Bman than devers could be, but that is all speculation on my part. We do know Cora has had certain strong opinions on players and positions and is fiercely loyal to many players. He once called Kike one of the best defensive SSs in MLB. He resisted moving Bogey off SS, when we signed Story. I do think he did not want to upset Devers by moving him off 3B, but he ended up asking him to DH, so I can't help but raise an eyebrow over not just telling him it's 1B not DH. The fact that he apparently never even asked Devers to play 1B, let alone tell him to, supports your opinion.

It was strange that Cora initially floated the idea of Bregman at 2B and devers at 3B and even Bregman okay'd the idea, but he did move off that position- perhaps with a nudge from Brez. It looked like a "nudge" was not going to be enough to convince Cora to get Devers to try 1B. The whole situation was weird, to me. How often do you see a GM going to speak to a player s about a position move? Then , some reports said Brez never even asked him to play 1B; he just told him they'd like him to play there.

Seems like there were just too many unknowns to throw most of the blame on one guy. I know some say 50+% is on Devers, while some seem to think Cora is the main guy to blame. I'm not sure I need to know. I'm kinda glad we moved on, but only if we can add a mega bat to take his slot, and no, it's not Anthony. Anthony is the boost we need to improve- not the boost we needed to maybe stay even.

Pure Soap Opera that’s for sure.

[Kimmi]

2 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

Were they joking that Bogey was a bad teammate, or did they legit think he was a bad teammate? What specifically was the behavior that made him a bad teammate? 

I was not happy with Bogaerts when his reply to moving to 3B (or 2B) was very similar to Devers' reply to moving to  DH.  Bogaerts reluctance to move to another position happened twice, once when Stephen Drew was signed, then again with Story's signing.  

IMO, the response when asked if you would be willing to move to a different position should always be "whatever the team needs me to do."

[moonslav59]

22 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Funny because Xander went out and had a great defensive season that year. Shows what posters know.

It was strange how he had an island of plus D right after the Story trade, then went on to be barely okay by the metrics...

Bogey

DRS: -18 previous 3 seasons, +5 in '22, then -8 last 3 seasons

OAA: -22 previous 3 seasons, +5 in '22, then +7 last 3 seasons

Story:
DRS: +10 previous 2 seasons (just 550 innings) and -7 in 2025

OOA: +10 previous 2 seasons and -9 in 2025.

[moonslav59]

10 minutes ago, Old Red said:

But there were so many on here that shouted Devers Forevers, Devers Forever, Devers Forever!🤔

Your counting skills needs some work.

[Bellhorn04]

2 hours ago, drewski6 said:

I agree. Bonds was also a bad teammate, as was Ted Williams, as was Michael Jordan. Draymond Green punches his teammates. So does ex carolina wr Steve smith.  Manny was a bad teammate.

If you think Devers should do everything in his power to make the team better, that should also apply to Breslow. And the team with Devers at DH was better than no Devers. We might even still be playing right now.  Of course , it would have quieted down. It had mostly quieted down.  Winning cures.

 

In my opinion if you win multiple championships that kind of exempts you from being a bad teammate.  If the objective is to win rings how can Mike Jordan be a bad teammate?  Jordan's teammates made a lot more money because of him and they have rings.  Maybe an unlikeable teammate, but that's a different thing.

[Old Red]

1 minute ago, Kimmi said:

I was not happy with Bogaerts when his reply to moving to 3B was very similar to Devers' reply to moving to  DH.  Bogaerts reluctance to move to 3rd base happened twice, once when Stephen Drew was signed, then again with Story's signing.  

IMO, the response when asked if you would be willing to move to a different position should always be "whatever the team needs me to do."

Who was Bogey asked by to move to 3B after the Story signing? A reporter? Cora? Cora is the only one that would have mattered.

[Old Red]

3 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Your counting skills needs some work.

I should have said many times.🤓

[mvp 78]

14 minutes ago, Old Red said:

But there were so many on here that shouted Devers Forevers, Devers Forever, Devers Forever!🤔

He should still be here. I guess I'm one of the few remaining believers. 🥺

[mvp 78]

12 minutes ago, Kimmi said:

We'll have no way of ever knowing, but I'm not sure that the team with Devers at DH would have been better than the team with no Devers.  We might still be playing now, but we might just as easily not have made the playoffs.  On paper, sure, Devers made the team better offensively.  But I don't think you can discount the impact of the trade on the atmosphere inside the clubhouse.

 

There were no complaints about Devers's attitude from guys inside the clubhouse. The only people complaining are the FO and people online. 

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

In my opinion if you win multiple championships that kind of exempts you from being a bad teammate.  If the objective is to win rings how can Mike Jordan be a bad teammate?  Jordan's teammates made a lot more money because of him and they have rings.  Maybe an unlikeable teammate, but that's a different thing.

Was Manny a good teammate? Depended on the year? 

[Kimmi]

13 minutes ago, Old Red said:

But there were so many on here that shouted Devers Forevers, Devers Forever, Devers Forever!🤔

I was a big Devers fan, and I was happy to have him on our team while he was here, even after the controversy.  I wasn't happy that he didn't have a team-first attitude.  Had he stayed on the team, however, I would have happily rooted for him.

The fact that Breslow felt the need to trade him, despite him being one of the best hitters in baseball, told me what I needed to know.  When Devers told the Giants that he would play wherever they needed him to play, that sealed the deal for me.

[Old Red]

5 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

He should still be here. I guess I'm one of the few remaining believers. 🥺

I was never a  Devers Forever guy, but I’ve been on Dever’s side in this whole saga.

[Bellhorn04]

5 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

There were no complaints about Devers's attitude from guys inside the clubhouse. The only people complaining are the FO and people online. 

Nobody said much of anything about Devers after he left.  Actually once Casas got hurt we had kind of a quiet team.  Nobody very quotable.

[Old Red]

2 minutes ago, Kimmi said:

I was a big Devers fan, and I was happy to have him on our team while he was here, even after the controversy.  I wasn't happy that he didn't have a team-first attitude.  Had he stayed on the team, however, I would have happily rooted for him.

The fact that Breslow felt the need to trade him, despite him being one of the best hitters in baseball, told me what I needed to know.  When Devers told the Giants that he would play wherever they needed him to play, that sealed the deal for me.

It was a personality clash between Raffy, and Brez, and Brez didn’t like Raffy telling him to do his job, and I don’t think there was anymore to it than that.

[Old Red]

8 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

There were no complaints about Devers's attitude from guys inside the clubhouse. The only people complaining are the FO and people online. 

100%👍👍👍.

[Bellhorn04]

6 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Was Manny a good teammate? Depended on the year? 

Manny was a tough one to judge, for sure.  I'd say most were good with him until the 2008 shenanigans.

[Kimmi]

8 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Who was Bogey asked by to move to 3B after the Story signing? A reporter? Cora? Cora is the only one that would have mattered.

It was reporters.  I don't know whether Cora ever asked him to move, but I'm sure there was discussion about it.  At any rate, I don't think that insinuating that you're not willing to move is the appropriate response regardless of whether you're asked by reporters or by the manager.