It's Time to Can Cora

[Hitch]

Everything the person I don't like achieves is luck and everything that goes wrong is his fault. 

And around and around we go. 

[Bellhorn04]

We just won 5 of 6 against the Yanks.  Does that count for nothing? 

[moonslav59]

9 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Cora is obviously doing a brilliant job guiding the team through this period of turmoil and getting them back in the hunt by taking 9 of 12 from the Yanks, Rays and Mariners.

He is only responsible for the losses.

[mvp 78]

14 hours ago, Hitch said:

Everything the person I don't like achieves is luck and everything that goes wrong is his fault. 

And around and around we go. 

Yes. There aren't too many people on here that are willing to change their opinions on players or people. However, I am a proud flip flopper. 

[mvp 78]

14 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

We just won 5 of 6 against the Yanks.  Does that count for nothing? 

It's a great little run. Surprising! If the pitching holds up, they'll be in a great position for the rest of the season even without a decent DH. 

[Bellhorn04]

Just now, mvp 78 said:

It's a great little run. Surprising! If the pitching holds up, they'll be in a great position for the rest of the season even without a decent DH. 

Just wait till we get that Yoshida/Refsnyder DH platoon in place! 

[mvp 78]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

Just wait till we get that Yoshida/Refsnyder DH platoon in place! 

I was all on board with a Masa revenge tour this offseason. Who am I to say?!?!

[Hitch]

2 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

Yes. There aren't too many people on here that are willing to change their opinions on players or people. However, I am a proud flip flopper. 

Although, you're pretty entrenched on Devers at the moment. I was stunned and angry when it first happened, but a fair amount of my annoyance has gone to Devers since (while still being very annoyed with how the FO/Cora allowed it to get to this).  

I can't wait for his 6 bombs this weekend. 

[mvp 78]

1 minute ago, Hitch said:

Although, you're pretty entrenched on Devers at the moment. I was stunned and angry when it first happened, but a fair amount of my annoyance has gone to Devers since (while still being very annoyed with how the FO/Cora allowed it to get to this).  

I can't wait for his 6 bombs this weekend. 

There's enough people that have flipped to being anti-Devers that I have to hold down the fort for a little while anyway. I was supportive of him getting a shot in BOS in 2017 even though a lot of people on here thought it was silly (moon in particular). He ended up rocketing up that year and then the bandwagon got a little big. The second his back turned, a lot of people were ready with their ice picks. Sad that it had to end that way. I understand that people grieve differently. Their anger went towards Devers. My anger went towards Breslow, Sam and JH. I'm ok with where things ended up. Just wish that all involved had acted like adults (Breslow, Raffy, Media, Sam, Cora) instead of what we witnessed. It's also tiring seeing the postmortem attacks that we witness every time someone leaves town. The last 15 years have been kinda gross. 

[Hitch]

8 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

There's enough people that have flipped to being anti-Devers that I have to hold down the fort for a little while anyway. I was supportive of him getting a shot in BOS in 2017 even though a lot of people on here thought it was silly (moon in particular). He ended up rocketing up that year and then the bandwagon got a little big. The second his back turned, a lot of people were ready with their ice picks. Sad that it had to end that way. I understand that people grieve differently. Their anger went towards Devers. My anger went towards Breslow, Sam and JH. I'm ok with where things ended up. Just wish that all involved had acted like adults (Breslow, Raffy, Media, Sam, Cora) instead of what we witnessed. It's also tiring seeing the postmortem attacks that we witness every time someone leaves town. The last 15 years have been kinda gross. 

Hard to argue with any of that. My annoyance is specifically down to the fact his ego wouldn't allow him to help carry his teammates. First Giants press conference and he's gleefully saying he'll play anywhere - they're the boss.

Management screwed up big time, but Devers can get f'd with that attitude, too. Be angry, be annoyed, air your grievances, but help the team win first and foremost. 

Interesting that two legends are taking up the different battens. Ortiz and Pedro going scorched earth on both Raffy and FO in their own ways, which mirrors the fan base. 

 

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, Hitch said:

Hard to argue with any of that. My annoyance is specifically down to the fact his ego wouldn't allow him to help carry his teammates. First Giants press conference and he's gleefully saying he'll play anywhere - they're the boss.

Management screwed up big time, but Devers can get f'd with that attitude, too. Be angry, be annoyed, air your grievances, but help the team win first and foremost. 

Interesting that two legends are taking up the different battens. Ortiz and Pedro going scorched earth on both Raffy and FO in their own ways, which mirrors the fan base. 

Ortiz - part owner of the Red Sox

Pedro - not affiliated with the Red Sox

Take that for what you will. 

[Bellhorn04]

Just now, mvp 78 said:

Ortiz - part owner of the Red Sox

Pedro - not affiliated with the Red Sox

Take that for what you will. 

I just can't imagine why Ortiz would make up stuff about trying to communicate with Devers and the lack of response.  Those are statements of fact, not just opinion. 

[Maxbialystock]

17 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

He is only responsible for the losses.

This is true of all managers since at least 1901.  50-50 hindsight rules.  

[mvp 78]

14 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I just can't imagine why Ortiz would make up stuff about trying to communicate with Devers and the lack of response.  Those are statements of fact, not just opinion. 

Martinez specifically said that Ortiz shouldn't have tried to communicate to Raffy on the field like that. That he should have tried to communicate off the field, not in front of the cameras. Maybe Raffy also didn't trust Ortiz to run straight back to management? Raffy isn't under an obligation to talk to Papi. 

[Maxbialystock]

19 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

There's enough people that have flipped to being anti-Devers that I have to hold down the fort for a little while anyway. I was supportive of him getting a shot in BOS in 2017 even though a lot of people on here thought it was silly (moon in particular). He ended up rocketing up that year and then the bandwagon got a little big. The second his back turned, a lot of people were ready with their ice picks. Sad that it had to end that way. I understand that people grieve differently. Their anger went towards Devers. My anger went towards Breslow, Sam and JH. I'm ok with where things ended up. Just wish that all involved had acted like adults (Breslow, Raffy, Media, Sam, Cora) instead of what we witnessed. It's also tiring seeing the postmortem attacks that we witness every time someone leaves town. The last 15 years have been kinda gross. 

Very well said.  I rooted for Raffy because of his hitting and what seemed to be his joyous attitude toward the game--and despite his low DWAR.  Breslow screwed him first by lying about 3b and then by demanding he play 1b after he did so well as the DH.  We now know replacing Casas was the easiest thing in the world.  The fact is, Devers was having a banner season as DH because of his higher OPS and the fact that he didn't miss a game.  Should he have learned English?  Probably.  But a lot of people struggle with new languages, plus interpreters were always readily available, plus he was getting paid a lot of money.  

I too am OK with his departure because I like the overall direction of the Sox.  To me the turnaround by the pitching staff more than makes up for the loss of Devers.  I am not saying he won't be missed because he will.  But I'm upbeat about the rest of the lineup still with the Sox, especially after Abreu returns tonight and Bregman in July.  moon makes a good case that a combo DH of Yoshida and Ref would  ameliorate the loss of Devers.   I look forward to the development of the rookies, including Narvaez who was a steal.    

[drewski6]

35 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I just can't imagine why Ortiz would make up stuff about trying to communicate with Devers and the lack of response.  Those are statements of fact, not just opinion. 

I agree, and Devers is a blockhead. He said so himself, when he confessed that he can be stubborn. My issue is that I cant separate the setback from the context. We were told to wait , wait, wait and finally it looked like we were ready to compete, and poof step back. Im not there that he had to be traded or that it made us better or that he was a bad contract. But he was a blockhead, and does deserve some irk.  

[Hitch]

One thing I absolutely do not agree with - the pitching is going to make up for the loss of Raffy's bat. No chance. We need to go out and get another bat, too, and it still likely won't be enough.

[moonslav59]

13 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

I agree, and Devers is a blockhead. He said so himself, when he confessed that he can be stubborn. My issue is that I cant separate the setback from the context. We were told to wait , wait, wait and finally it looked like we were ready to compete, and poof step back. Im not there that he had to be traded or that it made us better or that he was a bad contract. But he was a blockhead, and does deserve some irk.  

The trade sucked for us. There are too many ifs, ands and buts involved, with the main one being if and how we "spend the savings," that will ultimately complete the grade on this trade.

The Betts trade sucked, bigtime- all by itself, but it was made worse by not only failing to replace the $30M we offered him, but falling way short of replacing it, along with Porcello, Kimbrel, Kelly, and many that came afterwards.

I was a huge Devers Froevers fan and defended him as much as anyone. I cut him slack on the translation and perhaps cultural context of his initial comments about "being the 3Bman." I avoided piling on, since reports claimed they never directly asked him to play 1B. The FO chose to attack via the media, once again.

I was shocked and saddened when I heard of the trade and am still far from happy, despite our moderator claiming I'm "happy" attacking Devers, now. 

There is plenty of blame to go around, and I assigned less than half on Devers, until he said, "I'll play anywhere they want me to play" in the SFG presser. That was when I flipped to blaming Devers more. He obviously was about sticking it to the FO and ultimately the team, to send a message, and it wasn't really about his thinking he shouldn't be "asked to play every position." Sure, he was playing tit for tat against a FO that deserved it, but in the end, the bottom line is, he hurt the team on the field by not jumping up and saying, "I'll play 1B to help the team," and by dogging it more than once, as well as in the clubhouse as the perfect non example as a role model to the many rookies and 1-3 year players on the team.

Maybe I'm at 50-50, and I'm fine being called a "flipper." I think I've tried hard to spread the blame, check posters out to bash Devers as a batter, and keep a fair and balanced opinion on what went down. I've corrected my mistaken comments, and may change my opinion, again, if new information comes out.

I'm pissed we lost his bat in out line-up, during the first season in a long time, where I thought we had a legit chance at making it to the WS. I'm pissed our FO keeps repeating the same mistakes, over and over with no hint of learning a lesson. I'm pissed that I'm back to the drawing board trying to figure out what sort of plan the team could take to help us get back to being a legit contender, now, without losing a top prospect or needed vet.

I'm back to the same question, again, sadly...

"How Soon Is Now?

[moonslav59]

8 minutes ago, Hitch said:

One thing I absolutely do not agree with - the pitching is going to make up for the loss of Raffy's bat. No chance. We need to go out and get another bat, too, and it still likely won't be enough.

Agreed. It's the same pitching staff, mildy improved by the hope that Hicks or Harrison can and will help a tiny bit.

I'm totally done counting on returning pitchers from long IL stints- Houck, Crawford, Sandoval, Murphy, Hendriks and now Slaten.

We need to add a SP'er and a bat to be back to close to what we had with Devers, and that still might not be enough.

Since I'm against trading top prospects for rentals, we are in a near impossible bind. Even trades for multiple year players cost way more, now, than in the winter.

It looks like wait till next year, all over again, and I'm sick of it. Nothing is good about this trade, in terms of our team on the field in 2025. Nothing.

If we happen to spend $30M AAV in deadline trades, without losing top prospects, it's still highly doubtful we can get back to square one, and the next point is that "square one" was a highly doubtful chance at squeaking into that playoffs, as it was.

This sucks, and no sugarcoating how Devers was slumping changes a thing. He was our best, healthy bat. He knocked in runs. He killed the Yankees, year in and year out.

He sucked on D and he was overpaid for a DH. That's all true, but we still lost out bigtime, this year.

[mvp 78]

56 minutes ago, Hitch said:

One thing I absolutely do not agree with - the pitching is going to make up for the loss of Raffy's bat. No chance. We need to go out and get another bat, too, and it still likely won't be enough.

Will? No. Could? Yes. Likelihood? Low.

[Jean-Sébastien Blouin]

Who will leave first between Cora or Breslow because I don't see a spark in this team. Would it be time to bring in other former players behind the bench, like David Ortiz as hitting instructor and Pedroia as infield coach? They lack leadership and the players don't seem to be having fun playing.

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 minutes ago, Jean-Sébastien Blouin said:

Who will leave first between Cora or Breslow because I don't see a spark in this team. Would it be time to bring in other former players behind the bench, like David Ortiz as hitting instructor and Pedroia as infield coach? They lack leadership and the players don't seem to be having fun playing.

Welcome to Talk Sox!

[mvp 78]

5 minutes ago, Jean-Sébastien Blouin said:

Who will leave first between Cora or Breslow because I don't see a spark in this team. Would it be time to bring in other former players behind the bench, like David Ortiz as hitting instructor and Pedroia as infield coach? They lack leadership and the players don't seem to be having fun playing.

I think the team would STRUGGLE to find another CBO if they fired Breslow in the next year or two. They'd have to either hand it over to Cora or someone else internally. It'd be a big time shocker. Either move would be. At this point, Cora still is a guy they want around for a long time. I think they wouldn't "fire" Cora, but would move him to a FO position during an upcoming offseason. I think that's the most likely solution.

[Jean-Sébastien Blouin]

 

You are right, I hadn't seen it from this angle of giving new functions to Cora who has done a lot for this organization, but now there must be changes because nothing is working anymore, and I don't dislike Breslow's work even though he still has work to do to create a winning team.

[Maxbialystock]

On 6/20/2025 at 8:38 AM, mvp 78 said:

Yes. There aren't too many people on here that are willing to change their opinions on players or people. However, I am a proud flip flopper. 

Someone had to admit it so that the rest of us can.  And why not?  Teams and players have ups and downs and we are fans, short for fanatics.  We embrace over-reacting.  I defended and boosted Raffy throughout this season but now I'm trying to convince people his departure can be overcome.  Thus his dinger to beat us Saturday was bad.  

[Bellhorn04]

15 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Someone had to admit it so that the rest of us can.  And why not?  Teams and players have ups and downs and we are fans, short for fanatics.  We embrace over-reacting.  I defended and boosted Raffy throughout this season but now I'm trying to convince people his departure can be overcome.  Thus his dinger to beat us Saturday was bad.  

Frankly I'm fine with him just hitting one dinger in the series!  Over the 3 games it was kind of a wash.  He hurt us with that one at-bat, but he didn't kill us.  He was 0 for 5 in the game we won.  He was 2 for 12 in the 3 games.  His OPS dropped 10 points in the 3 games.

[Maxbialystock]

6 minutes ago, Jean-Sébastien Blouin said:

 

You are right, I hadn't seen it from this angle of giving new functions to Cora who has done a lot for this organization, but now there must be changes because nothing is working anymore, and I don't dislike Breslow's work even though he still has work to do to create a winning team.

Pollyanna here.  Hi, everyone.

I don't think things are going in the wrong direction, not with the acquisitions this season of Bregman, Crochet, Chapman, and Narvaez.  Plus rookies Campbell, Mayer, and Anthony all show promise.  I also like Story at SS, Abreu in RF, Rafaela in CF, and Ref/Yoshida at the DH.  Bello's ERA for the season is 3.31.  In June it's 2.45 with 4 starts and 6, 7, 6, and 6.1 innings pitched.  He shut out the Yankees for 7 innings.  

I think Bregman's arrival was the major factor in Devers' departure.  I'm fine with blaming that on Breslow and maybe even Cora, but see above on how I see the Sox hitting this season. 

The weak spot is pitching.  However, moonslav, always a pain in the neck when I spout my theories and insights, has suggested the contrary. 

So I checked the espn team stats and noticed that MLB team ERA's ranked 13th through 19th all have winning records.  The Sox are ranked 17th.    The Phillies ERA is 3.89 to our 3.91, and they are 47-31.   The Blue Jays ERA, ranked 21st, is 4.17 and they are 41-36.

Today is June 23.  The Sox are 40-39, 3 games short of halfway in the season.  They are 3-3 on a road trip we hoped the Sox would go 5-4 on.  That's still possible despite the absence of both Bregman and Devers, the bullpen's struggles yesterday,  and Dobbin's going on the IL.  

But, if they don't, we know things get significantly better when Bregman returns.  Plus Bregman can still make some moves.  

 

 

[Maxbialystock]

14 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Frankly I'm fine with him just hitting one dinger in the series!  Over the 3 games it was kind of a wash.  He hurt us with that one at-bat, but he didn't kill us.  He was 0 for 5 in the game we won.  He was 2 for 12 in the 3 games.  His OPS dropped 10 points in the 3 games.

True.  After game 1, I wanted a sweep, which was killed by errors by Hamilton, Gonzalez, and Duran.  

[Maxbialystock]

50 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Welcome to Talk Sox!

With that name?  Do you realize he could be one of those guys from up north?  But it is one heckuva name. 

Jean-Sebastien, welcome to talksox.  

[dannycater]

On 6/20/2025 at 8:58 AM, Hitch said:

Hard to argue with any of that. My annoyance is specifically down to the fact his ego wouldn't allow him to help carry his teammates. First Giants press conference and he's gleefully saying he'll play anywhere - they're the boss.

Management screwed up big time, but Devers can get f'd with that attitude, too. Be angry, be annoyed, air your grievances, but help the team win first and foremost. 

Interesting that two legends are taking up the different battens. Ortiz and Pedro going scorched earth on both Raffy and FO in their own ways, which mirrors the fan base. 

 

Ortiz did not back Manny, Pedro did...Ortiz was as selfish a player as any other during his Sox playing career....Ortiz was upset at Devers because I don't think he responded to some of his personal texts...Love Big Papi, but not going to say he doesn't flip-flop on things, and let's face it--still questions that he was on a list that indicated he used PEDs--he got a free pass when a few others did not.