Article: BREAKING: Red Sox Sign Walker Buehler To One-Year Contract

[Hugh2]

Just now, mvp 78 said:

I'm not sure where Fulmer stands, but stretching him out may only put him into the Chase Anderson role IMO. BOS has six starters right now. WOO has seven starters if you include Fulmer and Drohan. 

It's hard to pick and choose between Fitts, Dobbins and Priester since they are still in development and Dobbins currently has considerable helium and a new pitch. I think I'd give any of them a shot in BOS before Fulmer. Criswell is probably the first man up after whoever of Crawford/Bello gets put into the pen. Not going to get hot and bothered over a 5 game sample from Criswell in AAA though. 

If everyone is healthy to start the season and your 5 is Crochet/Houck/Buehler/Bello/Giolito I wonder if Crawford is put into that swing man role, and Criswell is the first guy up to replace Crawford if (when) he moves into the rotation. 

[Old Red]

2 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

I'm 100% for Whitlock in the pen, and it's probably much more likely that's where he returns.  But his body not allowing it just isn't that great of an argument. (or at least if we are worried about his elbow that is).

While starting pitchers do get hurt with more frequency than relief pitchers, there's zero more risk of injury to the elbow starting rather than relief pitching.  Or I suppose another way to put it, moving to the pen does not reduce the risk of injury to Whitlocks elbow one bit.  But perhaps his elbow is now fine, and the pen role helps him stave off other injuries. 

Again, I'll reiterate I'm fine with Whitlock in the pen, it very well may be where he is best suited and I see it as likely.  I just wouldn't be completely surprised if he comes to spring training and they're stretching him out as a starter.  

Good points, but I’ve been saying since 2021 that he should have stayed in the pen, and been a late innings guy. 2021 was exclusively in the pen, and the only year he has stayed healthy coincidentally, or not.

[Old Red]

3 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

If everyone is healthy to start the season and your 5 is Crochet/Houck/Buehler/Bello/Giolito I wonder if Crawford is put into that swing man role, and Criswell is the first guy up to replace Crawford if (when) he moves into the rotation. 

If everyone is healthy is the big question, and if Gio is healthy he’ll be in the rotation, and the Kut Man will most likely come out of the pen. Bello as I’ve heard some pondering is NOT going to the pen. As we all know there will most likely be a need for 9-10 starters, or so during the season, so the Kut Man will most likely end up back in the rotation at some point.

[mvp 78]

2 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

I'm 100% for Whitlock in the pen, and it's probably much more likely that's where he returns.  But his body not allowing it just isn't that great of an argument. (or at least if we are worried about his elbow that is).

2021: two 10 day IL stints (pectoral)

2022: two 15 day IL stints with rehab in AAA (hip)

2023: 15 day IL 3X with rehab assignments (hip surgery in offseason, elbow inflamation)

2024: 15 day IL 3X, 60 day IL, out for season (oblique, UCL, surgery)

The two seasons they tried to make him a starter, his body just cratered. It couldn't hold up. After throwing 120 innings in 2018, his body gave out in 2019. He'll never throw 100+ innings again. We gave it one more chance last season and he couldn't last a month. 

[mvp 78]

7 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Good points, but I’ve been saying since 2021 that he should have stayed in the pen, and been a late innings guy. 2021 was exclusively in the pen, and the only year he has stayed healthy coincidentally, or not.

He didn't even stay healthy in 2021 and they completely babied him that year. 

[mvp 78]

2 minutes ago, Old Red said:

If everyone is healthy is the big question, and if Gio is healthy he’ll be in the rotation, and the Kut Man will most likely come out of the pen. Bello as I’ve heard some pondering is NOT going to the pen. As we all know there will most likely be a need for 9-10 starters, or so during the season, so the Kut Man will most likely end up back in the rotation at some point.

Bello isn't going to the pen, but they should consider trading him. Maybe they could get a nice Catcher for him. 

[Bellhorn04]

11 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

He didn't even stay healthy in 2021 and they completely babied him that year. 

Not sure babied is the right term.  He threw 73.1 IP which I expect is above average for a reliever these days.  His usage was different because he had so many multi-inning appearances, and a lot of them were high-leverage as he evolved into the "relief ace".

It worked beautifully that year.  It's been a mess ever since.  Hopefully they do keep him in the pen and he stays healthy.  

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

26 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

If everyone is healthy to start the season and your 5 is Crochet/Houck/Buehler/Bello/Giolito I wonder if Crawford is put into that swing man role, and Criswell is the first guy up to replace Crawford if (when) he moves into the rotation. 

Both are destined for the rotation, and Crawford may not even see any relief stints as long man in the bullpen. Criswell, either, if they'd rather he takes a regular turn in the Woo rotation to prepare.

With all the fragile -- and too valuable -- elbows in Boston, look for the Sox to use a six-man rotation early on in risky weather.

[Old Red]

23 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Bello isn't going to the pen, but they should consider trading him. Maybe they could get a nice Catcher for him. 

Yes the Red Sox have such a surplus of starting pitching.🙈🤭

[Hugh2]

27 minutes ago, Old Red said:

If everyone is healthy is the big question, and if Gio is healthy he’ll be in the rotation, and the Kut Man will most likely come out of the pen. Bello as I’ve heard some pondering is NOT going to the pen. As we all know there will most likely be a need for 9-10 starters, or so during the season, so the Kut Man will most likely end up back in the rotation at some point.

That's exactly how I see his role.  The Kut man is the 6th guy, probably still ends up with 15-20 starts this season and is plus out the pen.  I'm fine that, I think he is fine in that role too. 

[Hugh2]

27 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

2021: two 10 day IL stints (pectoral)

2022: two 15 day IL stints with rehab in AAA (hip)

2023: 15 day IL 3X with rehab assignments (hip surgery in offseason, elbow inflamation)

2024: 15 day IL 3X, 60 day IL, out for season (oblique, UCL, surgery)

The two seasons they tried to make him a starter, his body just cratered. It couldn't hold up. After throwing 120 innings in 2018, his body gave out in 2019. He'll never throw 100+ innings again. We gave it one more chance last season and he couldn't last a month. 

Look again, I'm not disagreeing the pen is probably his most optimal location.  

But the vast majority of his missed time, including a TJ you left out has been because of his ELBOW.  

We can all agree that he should move to the pen, but sadly it won't reduce future risk of more elbow problems.  Now his hip, and obliques and shoulders may thank him for it. 

[Old Red]

25 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

He didn't even stay healthy in 2021 and they completely babied him that year. 

How they handled Whit in 2021 2-3 days between appearances is well known and documented. I would say his health that year would be considered as healthy in theses days, and times.

[mvp 78]

9 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Not sure babied is the right term.  He threw 73.1 IP which I expect is above average for a reliever these days.  His usage was different because he had so many multi-inning appearances, and a lot of them were high-leverage as he evolved into the "relief ace".

It worked beautifully that year.  It's been a mess ever since.  Hopefully they do keep him in the pen and he stays healthy.  

Number of times he pitched in back to back games: 1. 

Number of times he pitched twice in three days: 13. 

He had a lot of rest for a guy with 46 appearances. 

15 appearances 1 inning or less.

41 appearances 2 innings or less.

Only 5 times did he pitch over 2 innings. 

He was 12th in reliever innings that year. 

[mvp 78]

1 minute ago, Hugh2 said:

Look again, I'm not disagreeing the pen is probably his most optimal location.  

But the vast majority of his missed time, including a TJ you left out has been because of his ELBOW.  

We can all agree that he should move to the pen, but sadly it won't reduce future risk of more elbow problems.  Now his hip, and obliques and shoulders may thank him for it. 

He missed a whole season because of his elbow, but if his elbow didn't blow out, his oblique and hips wouldn't have held up either. 

[Old Red]

17 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Not sure babied is the right term.  He threw 73.1 IP which I expect is above average for a reliever these days.  His usage was different because he had so many multi-inning appearances, and a lot of them were high-leverage as he evolved into the "relief ace".

It worked beautifully that year.  It's been a mess ever since.  Hopefully they do keep him in the pen and he stays healthy.  

Well said, and agree100%.

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Yes the Red Sox have such a surplus of starting pitching.🙈🤭

Compared to other orgs, they do. I know you want an All Star at every position, but that's not going to happen. 

[Old Red]

Just now, mvp 78 said:

Compared to other orgs, they do. I know you want an All Star at every position, but that's not going to happen. 

You guys are more worried about the Sox catching than the Red Sox are. Cro Man, Gio, and Bue Man might not even be here more than this coming year, and the Cro Man maybe in two. Bello is NOT being traded.

[Bellhorn04]

5 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Number of times he pitched in back to back games: 1. 

Number of times he pitched twice in three days: 13. 

He had a lot of rest for a guy with 46 appearances. 

15 appearances 1 inning or less.

41 appearances 2 innings or less.

Only 5 times did he pitch over 2 innings. 

He was 12th in reliever innings that year. 

12th is pretty high?

[Old Red]

6 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Number of times he pitched in back to back games: 1. 

Number of times he pitched twice in three days: 13. 

He had a lot of rest for a guy with 46 appearances. 

15 appearances 1 inning or less.

41 appearances 2 innings or less.

Only 5 times did he pitch over 2 innings. 

He was 12th in reliever innings that year. 

Old news, and was his healthiest, and most successful year. He was a cheap option as a starter.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

6 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Compared to other orgs, they do. I know you want an All Star at every position, but that's not going to happen. 

Those are unreasonable expectations. John says we just expect banners every year.

[Hugh2]

16 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

He missed a whole season because of his elbow, but if his elbow didn't blow out, his oblique and hips wouldn't have held up either. 

He's missed more time with two elbow surgeries than anything else. 

The biggest risk to his long term health is his elbow.  Which very well may be fine.....or not. 

[Hugh2]

I almost see Whitlock as two different injury prone pitchers. 

There's the elbow issues.

There's all his other issues. 

If it was only elbow issues, the case to returning him to the rotation is stronger.  He may or may not be over the injury bug, but his chances (minus the elbow) is stronger in the pen. 

But again, I won't be surprised IF the Sox stretch him out in spring training. 

I guess we shall see. 

[mvp 78]

16 minutes ago, Old Red said:

You guys are more worried about the Sox catching than the Red Sox are. Cro Man, Gio, and Bue Man might not even be here more than this coming year, and the Cro Man maybe in two. Bello is NOT being traded.

Horrible nicknames you got there. Back to the drawing board. Can't even comment on the rest of the post because of it. 

[mvp 78]

17 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

12th is pretty high?

I'm being fair and balanced in my reporting. Just straight facts. 

Others might avoid using certain things that would make their arguments worse, not me. 

[mvp 78]

15 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Those are unreasonable expectations. John says we just expect banners every year.

We apparently expect banners every year, but deserve more last place finishes than ever before! 🙃

[mvp 78]

8 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

He's missed more time with two elbow surgeries than anything else. 

The biggest risk to his long term health is his elbow.  Which very well may be fine.....or not. 

Regardless, he should never be a starter again. 

[mvp 78]

6 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

But again, I won't be surprised IF the Sox stretch him out in spring training. 

I guess we shall see. 

How many pitchers can they reasonably stretch out in the spring? Right now, there are 12 starters and near starters if you include Fulmer. 

As I've said before, the depth isn't my concern, it's the TOP of the rotation. They have enough 4/5's to get them through the next 3-4 years IMO. 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

3 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Regardless, he should never be a starter again. 

And any attempt at discussing him at the back end of the bullpen would be a non-closer.

[Old Red]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

Horrible nicknames you got there. Back to the drawing board. Can't even comment on the rest of the post because of it. 

Good!👍Bello is not being traded, or being the odd man out for the rotation. Plenty of potential, but plenty of uncertainty too. Gio coming off an injury, Cro has only pitched over 65 innings once, and who knows about Bue. Houck has had only one good healthy year, and will have to prove it again. That doesn’t sound like so much depth that Bello could be traded. 🙈. Bello May end up being their best starter this year.

[Old Red]

3 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

How many pitchers can they reasonably stretch out in the spring? Right now, there are 12 starters and near starters if you include Fulmer. 

As I've said before, the depth isn't my concern, it's the TOP of the rotation. They have enough 4/5's to get them through the next 3-4 years IMO. 

Depth is one thing. Good depth is another.