July 21 Sox at Dodgers

[Maxbialystock]

Not saying it was a good trade. It looks horrible, now.

 

1. There is a long way to go before the final grade is in.

2. There are plenty of horrific trades in Sox history... maybe more than 5 are worse. I'm thinking Babe Ruth, Betts, Sparky Lyle, Bagwell, Cecil Cooper just off the top of my head.

3. It was one year of Sale.

 

It looks horrible because it is horrible. Sale is brilliant this year, and the Sox are paying him to pitch for the Braves. That by itself is catastrophic. Grissom might help the Sox someday, but he will never be able to do what Sale is doing right now. Plus I'd rather have Story or Mayer at 2b than Grissom.

[Maxbialystock]

Duran was my pick of a player to follow when the season started. He continues to do his job very well.

 

O'Neill's hot streak lasted exactly one game. Don't tell me he is any kind of ass-et

 

He's a righty bat with the 4th most total bases on the Sox and the 2d best OPS. Of course he's an asset, especially when our best hitter, Devers, struggles against lefties.

[notin]

It looks horrible because it is horrible. Sale is brilliant this year, and the Sox are paying him to pitch for the Braves. That by itself is catastrophic. Grissom might help the Sox someday, but he will never be able to do what Sale is doing right now. Plus I'd rather have Story or Mayer at 2b than Grissom.

 

That’s the type of trade any team makes. You have a pitcher who makes a ton of money (in this case roughly $27.5 mill) and has barely pitched in the past 4 years (150 IP total) and really, wasn’t all that great the last time he did pitch a full season back in 2019.

 

His comeback has been remarkable and is probably unprecedented. In 2/3 of a season, Sale has already racked up 3.1 bWAR. From 2020-2023, he only accumulated 2.6 bWAR. And at age 35!

 

If I asked you to find another player who accumulated more bWAR before the All Star game than he did in total from ages 31 through 34, how long is that list? Especially after you remove the players who missed time for active military duty?

 

And with this season not done, if Sale is worth another 1.6 bWAR the rest of the way, he will have the same bWAR total this year as he had for all of 2019 through 2023 combined. That’s beyond unprecedented…

Edited July 22, 2024 by notin

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

If the SOX FO was serious about a PO bid, they would have done something significant by now. I'm guessing they're betting the farm, no pun intended, that their precious prospects will turn this franchise around. Maybe by next year or the year after. Looks like they're following the O's plan.

Only problem is there's no future pitching prospects on the farm, so they're gonna have to buy some during the offseason.

[moonslav59]

That’s the type of trade any team makes. You have a pitcher who makes a ton of money (in this case roughly $27.5 mill) and has barely pitched in the past 4 years (150 IP total) and really, wasn’t all that great the last time he did pitch a full season back in 2019.

 

His comeback has been remarkable and is probably unprecedented. In 2/3 of a season, Sale has already racked up 3.1 bWAR. From 2020-2023, he only accumulated 2.6 bWAR. And at age 35!

 

If I asked you to find another player who accumulated more bWAR before the All Star game than he did in total from ages 31 through 34, how long is that list? Especially after you remove the players who missed time for active military duty?

 

And with this season not done, if Sale is worth another 1.6 bWAR the rest of the way, he will have the same bWAR total this year as he had for all of 2019 through 2023 combined. That’s beyond unprecedented…

 

I think the determination is being based on current results, not the reasoning, at the time.

 

IMO, the reasoning at the time made more sense than the Ruth, Betts, Cooper, Lyle and Bagwell trades.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

I think the determination is being based on current results, not the reasoning, at the time.

 

IMO, the reasoning at the time made more sense than the Ruth, Betts, Cooper, Lyle and Bagwell trades.

 

Ruth wasn't actually a trade. He was sold for $150,000, although the amount seems to be in question.

 

Btw, speaking of trades, for a NY minute the SOX and Yankems were discussing trading Williams for DiMaggio. Rumor has it that the SOX also wanted Berra and that pretty much ended the discussion.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

The series from hell.

 

Nah, that series would have had to been played in Florida.

[notin]

On youtube earlier they did a video on the worst trades ever. One that was included was the Bagwell for Anderson trade. I've got to wonder where the current SOX trade of Sale to Atlanta for whatever his name is, oh yeah, Grissom, stacks up as the worst trade ever?

 

Bad trade? So far, yes. But give it time. Has your opinion of the Bradley/Renfroe trade changed now that Hamilton looks like an actual ball player?

[Maxbialystock]

That’s the type of trade any team makes. You have a pitcher who makes a ton of money (in this case roughly $27.5 mill) and has barely pitched in the past 4 years (150 IP total) and really, wasn’t all that great the last time he did pitch a full season back in 2019.

 

His comeback has been remarkable and is probably unprecedented. In 2/3 of a season, Sale has already racked up 3.1 bWAR. From 2020-2023, he only accumulated 2.6 bWAR. And at age 35!

 

If I asked you to find another player who accumulated more bWAR before the All Star game than he did in total from ages 31 through 34, how long is that list? Especially after you remove the players who missed time for active military duty?

 

And with this season not done, if Sale is worth another 1.6 bWAR the rest of the way, he will have the same bWAR total this year as he had for all of 2019 through 2023 combined. That’s beyond unprecedented…

 

Oh, stop it. Just stop it. You are ignoring the fact that as early as 2017 there were signs his elbow/arm was having problems near the end of the season. That all finally came to a head in late 2019, which led to TJ surgery in 2020.

 

And the key point there is that for most pitchers TJ surgery is a new start. However, in Sale's case he missed not only all of 2020, but practically all of 2021--and then lost most of 2022 because of the freak bicycle accident.

 

So Sale only really "used" that new left elbow last season, and that's when we saw some positive signs that he was close to the old Sale, but wisely taking a little off the heater and also adding a cut fastball to go with the slider and changeup. I personally was looking forward to the new Sale this season. Also don't forget that Sale is the ultimate professional in terms of staying in shape and staying focused about his job and about what he is doing in the game.

 

You could be right about "unprecedented," but this was not a miracle. It was Sale being Sale helped by the effects of a surgery that has helped literally hundreds (thousands?) of other pitchers.

[moonslav59]

Ruth wasn't actually a trade. He was sold for $150,000, although the amount seems to be in question.

 

Btw, speaking of trades, for a NY minute the SOX and Yankems were discussing trading Williams for DiMaggio. Rumor has it that the SOX also wanted Berra and that pretty much ended the discussion.

 

I call the Ruth for cash a trade.

[vegasbob]

I think the determination is being based on current results, not the reasoning, at the time.

 

IMO, the reasoning at the time made more sense than the Ruth, Betts, Cooper, Lyle and Bagwell trades.

 

Agreed, the reasoning was correct at the time of the deal, however, was it essential to give the Braves huge salary coverage for Sale. Not that it might have benefited the Red Sox roster, only JH's balance sheet.

 

Grissom came with years of control, was cheap and an answer at 2B. All understandable. But Sale was a competitor and Grissom is not.

[vegasbob]

Bad trade? So far, yes. But give it time. Has your opinion of the Bradley/Renfroe trade changed now that Hamilton looks like an actual ball player?

 

Hamilton seems to be a real player with maybe some upside or at least a strong bench contribution on a winning team. I'd rather have Hamilton than some of the wild ones pretending they are ready, when they are a long ways away from MLB players.

[vegasbob]

I call the Ruth for cash a trade.

 

Still debating the Ruth sale, Moon ? Almost as bad as Anderson for Bagwell, lol. The sale of Ruth's contract for No No Nanette funding, still characterizes the long term ownership of this franchise. The question is, how long does the JH administration under 4 CBO's and 4 WS titles carry the franchise forward. My Dad went to college in Boston in 1941 before becoming a Naval Aviator in WW 2 and waited until 2004, like many of us here to win it all again. Believe me, you do not want to wait another 86 years in a 30 team league to show the Red Sox are the best team.

[vegasbob]

Oh, stop it. Just stop it. You are ignoring the fact that as early as 2017 there were signs his elbow/arm was having problems near the end of the season. That all finally came to a head in late 2019, which led to TJ surgery in 2020.

 

And the key point there is that for most pitchers TJ surgery is a new start. However, in Sale's case he missed not only all of 2020, but practically all of 2021--and then lost most of 2022 because of the freak bicycle accident.

 

So Sale only really "used" that new left elbow last season, and that's when we saw some positive signs that he was close to the old Sale, but wisely taking a little off the heater and also adding a cut fastball to go with the slider and changeup. I personally was looking forward to the new Sale this season. Also don't forget that Sale is the ultimate professional in terms of staying in shape and staying focused about his job and about what he is doing in the game.

 

You could be right about "unprecedented," but this was not a miracle. It was Sale being Sale helped by the effects of a surgery that has helped literally hundreds (thousands?) of other pitchers.

 

For once, I am with you , Max

[Old Red]

A real bad start to the 2nd part of the season. Yes the Dodgers are a good club, but the Red Sox couldn’t have faced them at a better time. Mookie was out, and they didn’t have to face the Yam Man, or Glasnow either. They had a lead late in two of the games, and the BP couldn’t hold the lead. Now the Red Sox head to Colorado a bad team but the Red Sox will have NO closer, or much of a back end of the BP at all, and then things get tougher from there. Sounds like fun to me.

[Bellhorn04]

That’s the type of trade any team makes. You have a pitcher who makes a ton of money (in this case roughly $27.5 mill) and has barely pitched in the past 4 years (150 IP total) and really, wasn’t all that great the last time he did pitch a full season back in 2019.

 

His comeback has been remarkable and is probably unprecedented. In 2/3 of a season, Sale has already racked up 3.1 bWAR. From 2020-2023, he only accumulated 2.6 bWAR. And at age 35!

 

If I asked you to find another player who accumulated more bWAR before the All Star game than he did in total from ages 31 through 34, how long is that list? Especially after you remove the players who missed time for active military duty?

 

And with this season not done, if Sale is worth another 1.6 bWAR the rest of the way, he will have the same bWAR total this year as he had for all of 2019 through 2023 combined. That’s beyond unprecedented…

 

The problem is that the team that made the trade really didn't have enough starting pitching, and by trading Sale they had less.

 

They only signed Giolito, Giolito got injured and they didn't replace him.

 

It's not so much that trading Sale is a head-scratcher, it was their overall approach to the starting pitching depth and lack thereof that's a head-scratcher.

[Bellhorn04]

And the Giolito signing was a weird one, too. Not just because the guy was so bad at the end of last year, but the contract was structured so that if he pitched well he would likely opt out after one year. That's some solution to the rotation!

 

The only conclusion is that the team wasn't really all in, for the 3rd row in a row.

 

Now we have a pitching staff that's ready to implode.

[Bellhorn04]

That’s the type of trade any team makes. You have a pitcher who makes a ton of money (in this case roughly $27.5 mill) and has barely pitched in the past 4 years (150 IP total) and really, wasn’t all that great the last time he did pitch a full season back in 2019.

 

His comeback has been remarkable and is probably unprecedented. In 2/3 of a season, Sale has already racked up 3.1 bWAR. From 2020-2023, he only accumulated 2.6 bWAR. And at age 35!

 

If I asked you to find another player who accumulated more bWAR before the All Star game than he did in total from ages 31 through 34, how long is that list? Especially after you remove the players who missed time for active military duty?

 

And with this season not done, if Sale is worth another 1.6 bWAR the rest of the way, he will have the same bWAR total this year as he had for all of 2019 through 2023 combined. That’s beyond unprecedented…

 

James Paxton is not an unreasonable comp for Sale. Similar age and innings history since 2019. Not as good quality innings as Sale.

 

The Dodgers are probably just fine with their investment in him.

[Dipre]

Well this weekend sucked

[Bellhorn04]

This team sucks on Fridays and sucks against lefty starters, so this series didn't line up well.

[moonslav59]

And the Giolito signing was a weird one, too. Not just because the guy was so bad at the end of last year, but the contract was structured so that if he pitched well he would likely opt out after one year. That's some solution to the rotation!

 

The only conclusion is that the team wasn't really all in, for the 3rd row in a row.

 

Now we have a pitching staff that's ready to implode.

 

They weren’t all in in 2020 or 2021, either.

[moonslav59]

The problem is that the team that made the trade really didn't have enough starting pitching, and by trading Sale they had less.

 

They only signed Giolito, Giolito got injured and they didn't replace him.

 

It's not so much that trading Sale is a head-scratcher, it was their overall approach to the starting pitching depth and lack thereof that's a head-scratcher.

 

Agreed, but the move from Sale to Gio was made for more certainty of IP and to lessen the need for depth. Nobody expected Sale to out IP Gio.

 

I totally agree on the depth thing. criswell was it.

[moonslav59]

Agreed, the reasoning was correct at the time of the deal, however, was it essential to give the Braves huge salary coverage for Sale. Not that it might have benefited the Red Sox roster, only JH's balance sheet.

 

Grissom came with years of control, was cheap and an answer at 2B. All understandable. But Sale was a competitor and Grissom is not.

 

I don’t the ATL takes Sale without a lot of cash, and that was expected. Let’s say Salescontract was expiring, last winter. Be honest: who would have wanted us extending him at $25M?

$20M?

$17M?

$10M might have had some takers, but as Bell has pointed out, we still needed more SPers, last winter.

[d-money]

An awful series. Need to sweep the rockies.

[Bellhorn04]

Agreed, but the move from Sale to Gio was made for more certainty of IP and to lessen the need for depth. Nobody expected Sale to out IP Gio.

 

They had the option of having them both. That was certain to yield at least as many innings as only having one of them.

[dgalehouse]

The Dodgers are a really good team. And they will get better. Mookie, Muncy, Yamamoto, Glasnow and Kershaw will return. Couple of relievers as well. And they surely will be in on the bidding for Skubal and Crochet. The Sox got swept by them but played them pretty tough. It's not the end of the world. Things will be much easier against the Rockies. The chances of making the playoffs are still very good. The mood swings are not good for you. Relax.

[vegasbob]

Who knew Jansen couldn't go to Colorado for heart health reasons, leaving the Red Sox short yet another reliever in a critical series. And cannot call up another without making a corresponding demotion, maybe like Weissert

[Bellhorn04]

The Dodgers are a really good team. And they will get better. Mookie, Muncy, Yamamoto, Glasnow and Kershaw will return. Couple of relievers as well. And they surely will be in on the bidding for Skubal and Crochet. The Sox got swept by them but played them pretty tough. It's not the end of the world. Things will be much easier against the Rockies. The chances of making the playoffs are still very good. The mood swings are not good for you. Relax.

 

People are going to react the way they react. No need for counseling.

 

The Sox won 78 games in 2022 and 78 games in 2023 and are out of the last wild card spot for 2024 right now.

 

Not sure why we should be all sunshine and roses.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Who knew Jansen couldn't go to Colorado for heart health reasons, leaving the Red Sox short yet another reliever in a critical series. And cannot call up another without making a corresponding demotion, maybe like Weissert

 

As a fan, I would hope the Chief Baseball Officer of the entire franchise knew...

[dgalehouse]

People are going to react the way they react. No need for counseling.

 

The Sox won 78 games in 2022 and 78 games in 2023 and are out of the last wild card spot for 2024 right now.

 

Not sure why we should be all sunshine and roses.

 

I am just trying to be helpful. Keep things in perspective. The randomness and just plain luck involved in baseball cuts both ways. We should not get too high or too low over the outcome of any one game or short series. I have certainly expressed my dissatisfaction with many of the things that have happened since 2018. But I do think it is odd to be sky high over the team one day, then become disgusted because they lost on the road to a team like the Dodgers.