Red Sox ownership

[mvp 78]

Another nicely scathing piece on Henry from OTM:

 

https://www.overthemonster.com/2024/2/8/24063965/john-henrys-legacy-is-on-the-line-red-sox-yankees-dodgers-mookie-betts

 

What if the same man who helped break the curse ends up ushering in a new one?

 

C'mon, man! Enough with the CHB nonsense........

[Bellhorn04]

What if the same man who helped break the curse ends up ushering in a new one?

 

C'mon, man! Enough with the CHB nonsense........

 

How many c words are off limits here?

 

It's a good article regardless. Some of the parallels with last century are pretty crazy.

 

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[moonslav59]

 

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

...and those who repeat it, are doomed to make history.

[Bellhorn04]

As the article points out, Henry turns 75 this year. It really is a time to contemplate one's legacy.

[mvp 78]

How many c words are off limits here?

 

It's a good article regardless. Some of the parallels with last century are pretty crazy.

 

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

The curse was silly to begin with. Stating that there is a new one is really ridiculous.

[Bellhorn04]

The curse was silly to begin with. Stating that there is a new one is really ridiculous.

 

It's just a literary trope. It doesn't bother me. To each their own of course.

 

But again, the historical parallels are kind of freaky.

[notin]

How many c words are off limits here?

 

It's a good article regardless. Some of the parallels with last century are pretty crazy.

 

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

 

And unlike the Cubs, who allegedly were cursed by some goat-owning Wrigleyville warlock (real legend!), the Sox never were. It was just a catchy book title…

[Bellhorn04]

And unlike the Cubs, who allegedly were cursed by some goat-owning Wrigleyville warlock (real legend!), the Sox never were. It was just a catchy book title…

 

Bill Lee (who else?) is the man who first came up with it, IIRC.

[mvp 78]

Bill Lee (who else?) is the man who first came up with it, IIRC.

 

CHB's book states a local minister came up with the idea of a curse that had been put on the Red Sox and not Bill Lee. Where'd the Bill Lee thing come from?

[Bellhorn04]

CHB's book states a local minister came up with the idea of a curse that had been put on the Red Sox and not Bill Lee. Where'd the Bill Lee thing come from?

 

That would be Bill.

[notin]

CHB's book states a local minister came up with the idea of a curse that had been put on the Red Sox and not Bill Lee. Where'd the Bill Lee thing come from?

 

You read Shaughnessy's books?

[mvp 78]

You read Shaughnessy's books?

 

I read the Wikipedia entry.

[notin]

I read the Wikipedia entry.

 

OK. That's acceptable...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

2-10-2020 from the Pay Mookie! thread... 5GG Post #297:

 

"I feel Mookie's career and contract will be defined by his performance over the next half decade, during which time I fully expect him to produce another 30 WAR and lead his new club to at least 450 wins. If he helps win another World Series, it will be worth it to that franchise and its fan base.

 

Boston losing Betts can't be as bad as losing Babe Ruth, but I fear it will be the biggest Red Sox mistake since -- one that media and rival fans will haunt our sons with for a long time... especially, if the Bosox blow much of their savings on free agent busts filling unavoidable voids, trying to win back fans.

Giving away Bagwell while a prospect was bad enough, but the Red Sox had a HOFer about to enter his prime... and couldn't keep him."

[mvp 78]

2-10-2020 from the Pay Mookie! thread... 5GG Post #297:

 

"I feel Mookie's career and contract will be defined by his performance over the next half decade, during which time I fully expect him to produce another 30 WAR and lead his new club to at least 450 wins. If he helps win another World Series, it will be worth it to that franchise and its fan base.

 

Boston losing Betts can't be as bad as losing Babe Ruth, but I fear it will be the biggest Red Sox mistake since -- one that media and rival fans will haunt our sons with for a long time... especially, if the Bosox blow much of their savings on free agent busts filling unavoidable voids, trying to win back fans.

Giving away Bagwell while a prospect was bad enough, but the Red Sox had a HOFer about to enter his prime... and couldn't keep him."

 

The Bagwell trade sucked, but I don't think anyone thought at the time that it added to the Curse of the Bambino. They already had Boggs at 3B. Sometimes trades just bite you in the ass, especially with prospects. Letting one of the best players in the game leave is more akin to what happened at the end of 1980 with the Red Sox.

[moonslav59]

2-10-2020 from the Pay Mookie! thread... 5GG Post #297:

 

"I feel Mookie's career and contract will be defined by his performance over the next half decade, during which time I fully expect him to produce another 30 WAR and lead his new club to at least 450 wins. If he helps win another World Series, it will be worth it to that franchise and its fan base.

 

Boston losing Betts can't be as bad as losing Babe Ruth, but I fear it will be the biggest Red Sox mistake since -- one that media and rival fans will haunt our sons with for a long time... especially, if the Bosox blow much of their savings on free agent busts filling unavoidable voids, trying to win back fans.

Giving away Bagwell while a prospect was bad enough, but the Red Sox had a HOFer about to enter his prime... and couldn't keep him."

 

Post #161

 

I totally understand this position, but to me, Mookie is probably worth $300+M/6 (not on the open market as a FA but in reality), so giving him $120M for the last 6 years is not bad.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The Bagwell trade sucked, but I don't think anyone thought at the time that it added to the Curse of the Bambino. They already had Boggs at 3B. Sometimes trades just bite you in the ass, especially with prospects. Letting one of the best players in the game leave is more akin to what happened at the end of 1980 with the Red Sox.

 

Fair point. Fisk was the future Hall of Famer, but he was already 32. Lynn -- who may've made Cooperstown if he played his whole career in Fenway -- was 28.

 

I still can't get over that Mookie was only 26...

[jad]

Fear not. All is for the best in the best of all possible FOs.

[mvp 78]

Fair point. Fisk was the future Hall of Famer, but he was already 32. Lynn -- who may've made Cooperstown if he played his whole career in Fenway -- was 28.

 

I still can't get over that Mookie was only 26...

 

Combined, Fisk and Lynn earned 48.4 fWAR after leaving Boston. Mookie has already earned 21.7. He has 9 years to amass 26.7 fWAR to match their total post-Boston. That would get him to 31st all time for fWAR, just ahead of George Brett. This season, he should easily pass HOFers Jackie Robinson, Andre Dawson, Tony Perez, Dave Winfield and more.

[moonslav59]

Fair point. Fisk was the future Hall of Famer, but he was already 32. Lynn -- who may've made Cooperstown if he played his whole career in Fenway -- was 28.

 

I still can't get over that Mookie was only 26...

 

The purge of that era went beyond just Fisk & Lynn. Within a short period of time, we also lost Bill Lee, Burleson & Hobson. (I feel like I'm forgetting another.)

 

A few years earlier, there was a lesser purge of Cecil Cooper & Bernie Carbo.

[notin]

The purge of that era went beyond just Fisk & Lynn. Within a short period of time, we also lost Bill Lee, Burleson & Hobson. (I feel like I'm forgetting another.)

 

A few years earlier, there was a lesser purge of Cecil Cooper & Bernie Carbo.

 

Jim Willoughby, Dick Drago, and Reggie Cleveland…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The purge of that era went beyond just Fisk & Lynn. Within a short period of time, we also lost Bill Lee, Burleson & Hobson. (I feel like I'm forgetting another.)

 

A few years earlier, there was a lesser purge of Cecil Cooper & Bernie Carbo.

 

Cooper and Carbo would've been longterm and short term impact players, but the guy Yaz lamented most was Tiant. He didn't have much left, but Looie was a clubhouse leader -- and they let him go to the Yankees.

[moonslav59]

Cooper and Carbo would've been longterm and short term impact players, but the guy Yaz lamented most was Tiant. He didn't have much left, but Looie was a clubhouse leader -- and they let him go to the Yankees.

 

That did suck. I think he had one good year after us.

[mvp 78]

The last time Henry gave an interview was about 12 months ago:

 

BSJ: Attendance was down last year, as were TV ratings. On local talk radio, the Red Sox are barely mentioned. To what degree are you concerned about the team's slippage in the Boston/New England market.? And for that matter, what do you think has caused that?

JH: We play in the toughest division in baseball and despite spending a lot of money annually we haven't gotten the results we were looking for with the exception of 2021. Moving past COVID our rebuild hasn't been what we hoped for. Our fans are sensitive to that. They have expectations that probably match ours. No one was happy with a mediocre result last In our division, if you play .500 ball you are going to finish last.

 

There's been a false narrative that we somehow stopped spending -- completely unsupported by the facts -- that we no longer sign free agents, that we are uninterested in or incapable of winning despite our track record. I saw an article last week about Bill Belichick that posited that he was no longer up to the task. That was ridiculous. It reminded me of the recent narrative surrounding us. I don't think anyone realizes there are 30 teams in these sports every year that are all doing everything they can to win. In a particular year, some clubs are criticized because they aren't "going for it'' when they are going every single thing they can short of destroying their futures to win. You always have to keep an eye on the future. And every team (maybe not the Mets) has a budget. It's so easy to fall as we did in 2022 to mediocrity. We needed to make changes but we haven't lost our way. Historically, when these critics think you're doing something right, we did temporarily lose our way. You have to be willing to go against the grain and we always have.

[moonslav59]

JH is just a JH apologist.

[mvp 78]

JH is just a JH apologist.

 

He posts like he on Sox payroll!

[moonslav59]

He posts like he on Sox payroll!

 

I think he has multiple poster accounts.

[mvp 78]

This is a game called Too Many Cooks.

 

@redsoxstats

“In the end, we don’t have a line in terms of our payroll that we look at as much as trusting that (Breslow) is going to deliver on his assurance that we’re going to be competitive.” Tom Werner, Jan 16

 

"We have set parameters for (Breslow) to operate under." Sam Kennedy, Feb 19

[Bellhorn04]

This is a game called Too Many Cooks.

 

@redsoxstats

“In the end, we don’t have a line in terms of our payroll that we look at as much as trusting that (Breslow) is going to deliver on his assurance that we’re going to be competitive.” Tom Werner, Jan 16

 

"We have set parameters for (Breslow) to operate under." Sam Kennedy, Feb 19

 

It's almost like one doesn't pay attention to the other.

[notin]

This is a game called Too Many Cooks.

 

@redsoxstats

“In the end, we don’t have a line in terms of our payroll that we look at as much as trusting that (Breslow) is going to deliver on his assurance that we’re going to be competitive.” Tom Werner, Jan 16

 

"We have set parameters for (Breslow) to operate under." Sam Kennedy, Feb 19

 

I call that game “Werner is a f***ing liar.”