Craig Breslow hired as Head Of Baseball Operations

[Old Red]

Dombrowski said he was shocked by the firing and that Henry never gave him a word of explanation. I see no reason to think he was lying.

 

Wouldn’t most people be shocked after getting fired after being in charge of 4 winning seasons, and a WS title to boot?

[Bellhorn04]

Wouldn’t most people be shocked after getting fired after being in charge of 4 winning seasons, and a WS title to boot?

 

Well, if they were having big disagreements with each other it might be more understandable. But that's not the way Dombrowski made it sound.

 

Of course, you'd to have to be the proverbial fly on the wall to know what all really went down leading up to it.

[notin]

Also a fact that he was pardoned.

 

It's one thing to know the facts, and another to think critically about the realities that underlie the facts...

 

And there is a third option that involves twisting the facts to meet the desired conclusion.

 

Some realities not being examined critically include

 

1. Dombrowski wanted Cherington to stay. This gets repeatedly dismissed.

2. The position was not eliminated. Mike Hazen filled it, albeit quietly, for multiple seasons.

3. The entire premise is Henry’s mercurial and volatile nature of wantonly firing executives is undermined by any theory that Cherington’s role was reduced to subversively induce him to quit. Henry clearly has no problem with straight up firing people . Why was Cherington different? (Hint: He wasn’t.)

 

But Cherington didn’t have many fans, and he just needed to be fired to too many. For the sake of Cosmic Justice, many just cannot live in a world where Ben Cherington was allowed to quit…

Edited November 17, 2023 by notin

[Old Red]

Well, if they were having big disagreements with each other it might be more understandable. But that's not the way Dombrowski made it sound.

 

Of course, you'd to have to be the proverbial fly on the wall to know what all really went down leading up to it.

 

And Sam’s not talking.

[moonslav59]

Sorry moon, but winning rings every 3-5 years is not a real plan. The fact that it happened for the Red Sox is just random good fortune.

 

I think many teams use a plan where they do not try hard to win it all, every year. They realize there are times where there is a confluence of factors that indicate it is a good time to build up or begin to rebuild.

 

It's not a sure fire plan, and outlier seasons happen along the way- good and bad.

 

We have had some seasons where it looks like we should have been contenders, on paper, but were not, and others that showed the opposite. That doesn't change the fact that this type of plan is a bad one.

 

I don't think the description "volatile" fits.

[notin]

Wow! Comparing Ben to Tricky Dick.

 

No. Comparing the myths behind the end of each’s tenure. Very different…

[moonslav59]

Dombrowski said he was shocked by the firing and that Henry never gave him a word of explanation. I see no reason to think he was lying.

 

I think it would have been against the team's plan of scamming the fans and media to come out and say, "We let DD go, because we are about to tear down the team and start from scrtach and...

 

A) we did not feel DD was the GM for that task and new direction."

 

or

 

DD was not on board with the plan and was actively challenging our new direction, so we felt we had to let him go."

 

If either of these were true, do you really think JH or some team spokesman would have uttered those words?

 

[Old Red]

No. Comparing the myths behind the end of each’s tenure. Very different…

 

It’s not a myth at all on why Ben left.

[moonslav59]

It’s not a myth at all on why Ben left.

 

The "myth" point was about the perception he was fired.

[notin]

Well, if they were having big disagreements with each other it might be more understandable. But that's not the way Dombrowski made it sound.

 

Of course, you'd to have to be the proverbial fly on the wall to know what all really went down leading up to it.

 

It is possible my oft-stated theory that Henry didn’t like the state of the Red Sox was a factor, if not the primary reason. They had numerous heavy contracts, no farm system, a high payroll, and were a mediocre team. This exact scenario resembled the Tigers when Dombrowski was dismissed there after a successful run. So maybe Henry opted to change the direction of the franchise and hopefully right the ship…

[notin]

It’s not a myth at all on why Ben left.

 

It is if you say he was fired…

[Old Red]

It is if you say he was fired…

 

It wasn’t a straight out firing, but DD was put in charge of him. He could have stayed, but in a diminished role, so call it what you want.

[mvp 78]

Well, if they were having big disagreements with each other it might be more understandable. But that's not the way Dombrowski made it sound.

 

Of course, you'd to have to be the proverbial fly on the wall to know what all really went down leading up to it.

 

According to Speier, there were lots of internal disagreements. DD didn't listen to others. DD didn't like that Sam was in a lot of meetings. Maybe DD didn't see it that way? Maybe DD didn't want to see it that way?

[Old Red]

According to Speier, there were lots of internal disagreements. DD didn't listen to others. DD didn't like that Sam was in a lot of meetings. Maybe DD didn't see it that way? Maybe DD didn't want to see it that way?

 

I wouldn’t blame DD for not wanting Sam in a lot of meetings. DD has probably forgotten more about baseball than Sam will ever know.

[sk7326]

I disagree, but I can see how some see it that way.

 

There are times in almost every organization, where there is a shift to or from rebuilding or seriously trying to compete.

 

Even under Theo, it seemed like they "went for it" much harder in some years vs others.

 

Under Ben, the 2013 season was not "planned," IMO. It was supposed to be a rebuild season towards 2014 and beyong being better. (It just didn't turn out that way.)

 

Many of us saw the writing on the wall from 2017-2018, and knew we'd have to regroup and reset, at some point. I don't view the cycle plan as being volatile. I think it's been a successful plan at winning rings every 3-5 years.

 

We are overdue, now.

 

Well, first - it's baseball. Your superpowers to build a champion are inherently limited.

 

But every single season between 2002 and, honestly 2019 - the Red Sox entered the season with at least a semi-realistic contender (a realistic path to 90 wins) on its hands ... you know "if we are healthy and a couple of breaks go our way".

 

2021 came out of nowhere and the seasons since were the first seasons under Henry's ownership where the team did not have a plausible road to a 90 win season.

[mvp 78]

It is possible my oft-stated theory that Henry didn’t like the state of the Red Sox was a factor, if not the primary reason. They had numerous heavy contracts, no farm system, a high payroll, and were a mediocre team. This exact scenario resembled the Tigers when Dombrowski was dismissed there after a successful run. So maybe Henry opted to change the direction of the franchise and hopefully right the ship…

 

Henry has a habit of staying in the background and then popping up to complain after the fact.

 

"Oh, I didn't like the Carl Crawford deal from day 1." So why did you agree to the signing, John?

[mvp 78]

I wouldn’t blame DD for not wanting Sam in a lot of meetings. DD has probably forgotten more about baseball than Sam will ever know.

 

DD should stop forgetting baseball if he wants to field competitive teams.

[moonslav59]

According to Speier, there were lots of internal disagreements. DD didn't listen to others. DD didn't like that Sam was in a lot of meetings. Maybe DD didn't see it that way? Maybe DD didn't want to see it that way?

 

There was obvious tension, for whatever reasons. I don't see JH's volatility as being the or even a major factor in his departure.

 

A change in direction is commonplace in all sports. I think volatile is too strong a word.

 

[notin]

There was obvious tension, for whatever reasons. I don't see JH's volatility as being the or even a major factor in his departure.

 

A change in direction is commonplace in all sports. I think volatile is too strong a word.

 

 

But was this a new aspect of DD? Henry certainly knew his personality from their days together with the Marlins…

[notin]

DD should stop forgetting baseball if he wants to field competitive teams.

 

There was a stretch in Detroit where he seemed to forget that bullpens were a thing…

[moonslav59]

Well, first - it's baseball. Your superpowers to build a champion are inherently limited.

 

But every single season between 2002 and, honestly 2019 - the Red Sox entered the season with at least a semi-realistic contender (a realistic path to 90 wins) on its hands ... you know "if we are healthy and a couple of breaks go our way".

 

2021 came out of nowhere and the seasons since were the first seasons under Henry's ownership where the team did not have a plausible road to a 90 win season.

 

I think preseason 2013 was similar to 2021 and maybe even 2022, but the results were different.

 

Injuries and unexpected decines by veterans in their primes or near it, are unforeseeable and common reasons why some teams never met preseason expectations.

 

I do see the rotations of teams before 2020 as being better. Many teams had better offenses and defenses. Few had a better pen than the 2022 one, before it was raided to fill open rotation slots.

 

I did not expect us to make the playoffs in 2013 or 2021. I did in many years we missed out or missed by a longshot.

[mvp 78]

There was a stretch in Detroit where he seemed to forget that bullpens were a thing…

 

That stretch has endured.

[Bellhorn04]

DD should stop forgetting baseball if he wants to field competitive teams.

 

Now that was a random comment.

[moonslav59]

But was this a new aspect of DD? Henry certainly knew his personality from their days together with the Marlins…

 

I don't see why it matters.

 

Certainly, winning makes tension and friction way more bearable.

 

My point is that I don't see JH as being volatile or that his volatility is the reason we've had 4 new decision makers since Theo.

 

We've had different needs at different points of the team's history. DD was a good hire to get a team over the hump. Ben and Bloom looked like logical choices for a more rebuilding-type scenarios. All were replaced, when the direction shifted.

 

Some argue the direction changed after the change, and skliis of the GM is what created the winning or losing results.

[Bellhorn04]

No. Comparing the myths behind the end of each’s tenure. Very different…

 

I think it's a myth that there are myths here. I think most people who have an interest in the matters realize that Nixon wasn't impeached and Cherington wasn't fired.

[Old Red]

I think it's a myth that there are myths here. I think most people who have an interest in the matters realize that Nixon wasn't impeached and Cherington wasn't fired.

 

It makes some feel better about JH to say Ben was just demoted, and then walked out on his own. Same results. Poor JH that volatility is to strong a word.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Old Red

[Bellhorn04]

There was obvious tension, for whatever reasons. I don't see JH's volatility as being the or even a major factor in his departure.

 

A change in direction is commonplace in all sports. I think volatile is too strong a word.

 

 

It's fact that Epstein was gone after 2011, Cherington after 2015, Dombrowski after 2019 and Bloom after 2023. To me it's a strange pattern, especially when we're talking about the franchise that has won the most championships this century. If you don't see it that way, that's fine.

[Bellhorn04]

It makes some feel better about JH to say Ben was just demoted, and then walked out on his own. Same results.

 

Of course. And I think everyone who has lived on the planet a while and has a functioning brain is familiar with the idea that there's more than one way of getting somebody to leave.

[Old Red]

Of course. And I think everyone who has lived on the planet a while and has a functioning brain is familiar with the idea that there's more than one way of getting somebody to leave.

 

I suppose that JH getting Boo’d all the time must be to strong of a reaction too.🙈

[notin]

It's fact that Epstein was gone after 2011, Cherington after 2015, Dombrowski after 2019 and Bloom after 2023. To me it's a strange pattern, especially when we're talking about the franchise that has won the most championships this century. If you don't see it that way, that's fine.

 

Those are facts, but you are combining multiple roles.

 

 

Epstein was replaced by Cherington, who was replaced by Hazen, who was replaced (eventually) by O’Halloran.

 

Lucchino was replaced by Dombrowski, who was replaced by Bloom, who was replaced by Breslow.

 

Of all of these names, only Dombrowski and Bloom were fired. The rest left of their own volition or are still on board. This spans 12 years for two positions…