5/30 vs Reds

[Maxbialystock]

Saying that a SP only going 4 innings was unacceptable turned this place into a war zone. I’ve seen many times that all a game thread needs is one bad pitch for all hell to break loose.

 

And now we know Cora agrees with you about Bello's 4 innings being insufficient.

[moonslav59]

....that can't play in the MLB right now, and we have Kiké throwing away games at SS.

 

Agreed.

 

Having 3 SSs on the IL and the one we thought would be okay on D sucking has been a big problem, for sure.

 

Bloom did try to make a move by adding Chang, but he got hurt.

 

There may not be any options but to ride it out. Apparently, Hamilton is not an option.

[Maxbialystock]

Agreed.

 

Having 3 SSs on the IL and the one we thought would be okay on D sucking has been a big problem, for sure.

 

Bloom did try to make a move by adding Chang, but he got hurt.

 

There may not be any options but to ride it out. Apparently, Hamilton is not an option.

 

Well, I don't agree. We lost the game because of the 5 run 7th inning, which Kike had nothing to do with.

 

As for the semi-miraculous 7th and 9th innings by the Sox hitters, they were largely due to that 8-0 lead which brought in less than stellar relievers by the Reds--Cruz ERA 7.47 and Salazar ERA 16.20. When Lively left the game with 2 outs in the 6th and just a 3-0 lead, the reliever was Young, ERA 2.91. He got the third out in the 6th.

 

Then came the 5 run 7th (with Rodriguez on the mound for the Sox) by the Reds, the 8-0 lead, and the decision not to bring Young back to pitch the 7th. So Cruz came in and gave up 3 runs.

 

With the score now 8-3, with the Reds firmly in control, Sherriff pitched the 8th for the Sox and gave up the 9th and winning run.

 

And, with the score now 9-3, Salazar got to pitch to six Sox hitters, five of whom scored, in the 9th before Diaz came on.

 

As for Kike's error, too bad. Errors happen. My guess is that, because he and Valdez are slow turning double plays, he rushed his throw and missed.

 

And to me the bigger error was by Cora, who sent Rodriguez out to pitch the 7th with the Sox down 3-0. He clearly assumed the Sox would not score any runs in this game.

[Dipre]

Well, I don't agree. We lost the game because of the 5 run 7th inning, which Kike had nothing to do with.

 

As for the semi-miraculous 7th and 9th innings by the Sox hitters, they were largely due to that 8-0 lead which brought in less than stellar relievers by the Reds--Cruz ERA 7.47 and Salazar ERA 16.20. When Lively left the game with 2 outs in the 6th and just a 3-0 lead, the reliever was Young, ERA 2.91. He got the third out in the 6th.

 

Then came the 5 run 7th (with Rodriguez on the mound for the Sox) by the Reds, the 8-0 lead, and the decision not to bring Young back to pitch the 7th. So Cruz came in and gave up 3 runs.

 

With the score now 8-3, with the Reds firmly in control, Sherriff pitched the 8th for the Sox and gave up the 9th and winning run.

 

And, with the score now 9-3, Salazar got to pitch to six Sox hitters, five of whom scored, in the 9th before Diaz came on.

 

As for Kike's error, too bad. Errors happen. My guess is that, because he and Valdez are slow turning double plays, he rushed his throw and missed.

 

And to me the bigger error was by Cora, who sent Rodriguez out to pitch the 7th with the Sox down 3-0. He clearly assumed the Sox would not score any runs in this game.

 

There are many valid points here, but you can't argue that crappy defense is one of the main issues with this team's run prevention.

[Bellhorn04]

There are many valid points here, but you can't argue that crappy defense is one of the main issues with this team's run prevention.

 

Yep, crappy starting pitching and crappy defense. Bullpen has largely been great.

[Bellhorn04]

Well, I don't agree. We lost the game because of the 5 run 7th inning, which Kike had nothing to do with.

 

As for the semi-miraculous 7th and 9th innings by the Sox hitters, they were largely due to that 8-0 lead which brought in less than stellar relievers by the Reds--Cruz ERA 7.47 and Salazar ERA 16.20. When Lively left the game with 2 outs in the 6th and just a 3-0 lead, the reliever was Young, ERA 2.91. He got the third out in the 6th.

 

Then came the 5 run 7th (with Rodriguez on the mound for the Sox) by the Reds, the 8-0 lead, and the decision not to bring Young back to pitch the 7th. So Cruz came in and gave up 3 runs.

 

With the score now 8-3, with the Reds firmly in control, Sherriff pitched the 8th for the Sox and gave up the 9th and winning run.

 

And, with the score now 9-3, Salazar got to pitch to six Sox hitters, five of whom scored, in the 9th before Diaz came on.

 

As for Kike's error, too bad. Errors happen. My guess is that, because he and Valdez are slow turning double plays, he rushed his throw and missed.

 

And to me the bigger error was by Cora, who sent Rodriguez out to pitch the 7th with the Sox down 3-0. He clearly assumed the Sox would not score any runs in this game.

 

Max, you contradicted yourself. After correctly pointing out that a lot of our scoring was attributable to the Reds using their crappier relievers, you turned around and blamed Cora for not going all in to chase a win.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

And now we know Cora agrees with you about Bello's 4 innings being insufficient.

 

There's only one true response to Cora's remark. "Duh."

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

There's only one true response to Cora's remark. "Duh."

 

This relates to 4 innings being insufficient.

[moonslav59]

Well, I don't agree. We lost the game because of the 5 run 7th inning, which Kike had nothing to do with.

 

As for the semi-miraculous 7th and 9th innings by the Sox hitters, they were largely due to that 8-0 lead which brought in less than stellar relievers by the Reds--Cruz ERA 7.47 and Salazar ERA 16.20. When Lively left the game with 2 outs in the 6th and just a 3-0 lead, the reliever was Young, ERA 2.91. He got the third out in the 6th.

 

Then came the 5 run 7th (with Rodriguez on the mound for the Sox) by the Reds, the 8-0 lead, and the decision not to bring Young back to pitch the 7th. So Cruz came in and gave up 3 runs.

 

With the score now 8-3, with the Reds firmly in control, Sherriff pitched the 8th for the Sox and gave up the 9th and winning run.

 

And, with the score now 9-3, Salazar got to pitch to six Sox hitters, five of whom scored, in the 9th before Diaz came on.

 

As for Kike's error, too bad. Errors happen. My guess is that, because he and Valdez are slow turning double plays, he rushed his throw and missed.

 

And to me the bigger error was by Cora, who sent Rodriguez out to pitch the 7th with the Sox down 3-0. He clearly assumed the Sox would not score any runs in this game.

 

I don't look at one game to determine where a team's biggest weaknesses are.

 

Kike ha ssucked at SS on D, and SS defence is vital to a run prevention. That wasn't his only meaningful error on the season.

 

Yes, the pen was a major reason we lost, last night, but so was the D. The pen has carried this team for much of the year, so to me, one game does not change how I feel about it.

 

The pen is a strength, until they prove otherwise. One game is not proof, to me.

 

[Maxbialystock]

Max, you contradicted yourself. After correctly pointing out that a lot of our scoring was attributable to the Reds using their crappier relievers, you turned around and blamed Cora for not going all in to chase a win.

 

Yeah, I did think about that. As I said, yesterday was a day off, as was last Thursday. Winck pitched 3 on Friday, a 7-2 win. Crawford pitched 2.1 on Saturday, a 2-1 win. And Pivetta pitched 3 on Sunday, a loss. Kluber's on paternity leave.

 

So last night when Bello finished the 4th and the Sox were down just 1-0, Cora had to decide if this game was worth going after. If it was, Winck was the guy to send in because 4 days was plenty of rest. However, Crawford threw just 27 pitches on Saturday, so he could have pitched the 5th and 6th innings yesterday.

 

On the other hand, the Sox were behind--not ahead--by 1 run. And, while they threatened in the 2d inning--until Tapia struck out with the bases loaded--they went down in order in the 1st, 3d, and 4th innings. In fact, Lively pitched 5.2 innings while giving up no runs, no BB's, and getting 6 K's.

 

So, yeah, maybe Cora made the right decision in the 5th inning when he sent Martin out. If he held the line for an inning or two, Cora could always use Winck or Crawford, especially if the lineup showed any signs of life. And that only happened after the Reds were up 8-0 and pretty sure to win.

[moonslav59]

Of course 4 innings by a SP'er is not sufficient, but it beats the SP'ers who keep getting lit up in the 5th. Our pen is strong enough to handle a 4 IP game here and there- just not always. It let us down, last night, but that doesn't change the fact that they have saved our asses way more times than not.

 

With Kluber and Pivetta out of the rotation, and Brasier off the roster, I'm hopeful we can see better with their replacements and more IP from guys who have been on the IL or babied to start their seasons.

 

All of our SP'ers should now be set up to go 5-6 IP minimum, moving forward. Whether they do or not depends on their performance levels.

 

We have 4 long men in the pen, now: Wink, Craw, Klub and Piv. If that is not enough to keep the short 4 guys (jansen, Martint, Schreiber, when he returns and I assume Joely) fresh, then we are doomed.

[moonslav59]

Using Wink and Craw, last night might have messed up our chance at winning tonight and tomorrow. Using one might have worked, but maybe waiting until the 6th or 7th to use one made more sense, and in hindsight, the 7th was what killed us.

[Maxbialystock]

Using Wink and Craw, last night might have messed up our chance at winning tonight and tomorrow. Using one might have worked, but maybe waiting until the 6th or 7th to use one made more sense, and in hindsight, the 7th was what killed us.

 

You left out a major, major factor. Last night the Sox hitting was moribund for six freaking innings. They couldn't hit Lively, period. That's why Cora didn't want to send out Winck or Crawford.

 

Lively went 5.2 innings, then Young, ERA 2.91, got the last out in the 6th. There is zero doubt in my mind he could also have pitched a scoreless 7th, but by then the Reds led 8-0 thanks to the Rodriguez.

 

Rodriguez never pitches if the Sox lineup had shown any capacity whatsoever for scoring runs. The 8 they did score were off the likes of Brasier, Rodriguez, Ort, et al.

 

I just reread your post and think we are saying the same thing. Don't waste your bullpen when your lineup is moribund.

[Old Red]

Using Wink and Craw, last night might have messed up our chance at winning tonight and tomorrow. Using one might have worked, but maybe waiting until the 6th or 7th to use one made more sense, and in hindsight, the 7th was what killed us.

 

Using Wink who was more rested in a 1 run game in the 5th inning, and that would have left the Kut Man for tonight, or tomorrow night. That game was very winnable last night only down 1-0, and as it turned out more than likely. Tonight, and tomorrow nights game might not even be a need. Bad way to manage to me waiting a day, or two for a better chance in only being down 1-0. Of corse one of your sayings was I don’t agree with Cora, but I don’t think he was wrong. I think he was wrong, and I think it cost them a win.

[moonslav59]

You left out a major, major factor. Last night the Sox hitting was moribund for six freaking innings. They couldn't hit Lively, period. That's why Cora didn't want to send out Winck or Crawford.

 

Lively went 5.2 innings, then Young, ERA 2.91, got the last out in the 6th. There is zero doubt in my mind he could also have pitched a scoreless 7th, but by then the Reds led 8-0 thanks to the Rodriguez.

 

Rodriguez never pitches if the Sox lineup had shown any capacity whatsoever for scoring runs. The 8 they did score were off the likes of Brasier, Rodriguez, Ort, et al.

 

I just reread your post and think we are saying the same thing. Don't waste your bullpen when your lineup is moribund.

 

I'm not sure why Cora did not choose Wink or Craw. Maybe he planned on using them later.

 

I'm not sure how our not hitting would matter much about bringing in a top RP'er in a 1 run game, but I get your point.

[Bellhorn04]

Using Wink who was more rested in a 1 run game in the 5th inning, and that would have left the Kut Man for tonight, or tomorrow night. That game was very winnable last night only down 1-0, and as it turned out more than likely.

 

Cincy would have used better relievers with a smaller lead though, which means we could have burned Winckowski for the next few games and still lost. There's no way it was a clear-cut decision.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not sure why Cora did not choose Wink or Craw. Maybe he planned on using them later.

 

I'm not sure how our not hitting would matter much about bringing in a top RP'er in a 1 run game, but I get your point.

 

You do have to look at what the other starter is doing. Lively was mowing us down, and he'd been pitching well coming into the game. That affected our chances of coming back.

[Old Red]

Cincy would have used better relievers with a smaller lead though, which means we could have burned Winckowski for the next few games and still lost. There's no way it was a clear-cut decision.

 

I understand all that, but I’m still going with Wink in that situation only down 1-0 in the 5th inning. 3-0 no, but 1-0 yes. Any time you use Wink for 2-3 innings you burn him for a couple of days, but then you have the Kut Man.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Old Red

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I guess Sox brass thought Kike/Chang could carry until Mondesi/Story returned.

It was a big swing and miss.

 

Nothing against Kike the man -- what's he supposed to do, admit he's not a full-time MLB shortstop and ask to be a bench-warmer again -- but the big swing and miss is Bloom acquiring not one but two high profile shortstops that were obviously damaged goods. Neither have played one inning at short for Boston, and even if you're an optimistic fan, the nature of their injuries make it very dubious when they return that they'll be any more effective at such a key position than Hernandez.

[Maxbialystock]

Using Wink who was more rested in a 1 run game in the 5th inning, and that would have left the Kut Man for tonight, or tomorrow night. That game was very winnable last night only down 1-0, and as it turned out more than likely. Tonight, and tomorrow nights game might not even be a need. Bad way to manage to me waiting a day, or two for a better chance in only being down 1-0. Of corse one of your sayings was I don’t agree with Cora, but I don’t think he was wrong. I think he was wrong, and I think it cost them a win.

 

I think our positions have reversed. I don't think last night's game was remotely "very winnable."

 

And I think the facts support me. Fact: the Sox were scoreless for the first six innings against Lively, 5.2 innings, and Young .1 inning. Young, ERA 2.91, could easily have pitched a scoreless 7th inning but by then the Reds were up, 8-0, thanks to brother Rodriguez.

 

So in came the Reds version of Brasier, Ort, Kluber, Rodriguez, whoever: Cruz, ERA 7.47, gave up 3 runs in the 7th and Salazar, ERA 16.20, gave up 5 more in the 9th. And, when things got out of control, in came Diaz for the save.

 

The Reds were in control of this game from the 3d inning on because the Sox lineup was lifeless until the Reds went up by 8-0 and sent in their junk relievers.

[moonslav59]

You do have to look at what the other starter is doing. Lively was mowing us down, and he'd been pitching well coming into the game. That affected our chances of coming back.

 

It is a factor, but Lively pitching a complete game was not a given. If using Wink in a 1-0 game was not right, I'm not sure what is.

 

I'm not complaining about Cora's choice. I am not privy to what all the factors were, at the time.

 

Joely was a pretty good pitcher from 2021-2022, and there was no way to know, he'd suck. Had he brought in Pivetta, it would be different.

[Old Red]

I think our positions have reversed. I don't think last night's game was remotely "very winnable."

 

And I think the facts support me. Fact: the Sox were scoreless for the first six innings against Lively, 5.2 innings, and Young .1 inning. Young, ERA 2.91, could easily have pitched a scoreless 7th inning but by then the Reds were up, 8-0, thanks to brother Rodriguez.

 

So in came the Reds version of Brasier, Ort, Kluber, Rodriguez, whoever: Cruz, ERA 7.47, gave up 3 runs in the 7th and Salazar, ERA 16.20, gave up 5 more in the 9th. And, when things got out of control, in came Diaz for the save.

 

The Reds were in control of this game from the 3d inning on because the Sox lineup was lifeless until the Reds went up by 8-0 and sent in their junk relievers.

Well I voiced my opinion long enough on this. I’m not changing anyone’s opinion on this, and no one is changing mine.

[moonslav59]

Nothing against Kike the man -- what's he supposed to do, admit he's not a full-time MLB shortstop and ask to be a bench-warmer again -- but the big swing and miss is Bloom acquiring not one but two high profile shortstops that were obviously damaged goods. Neither have played one inning at short for Boston, and even if you're an optimistic fan, the nature of their injuries make it very dubious when they return that they'll be any more effective at such a key position than Hernandez.

 

Yes, it was a big swing and miss- emphasis on " big" in several contexts.

 

It wasn't like he didn't try. Adding Changs should have been enough depth.

 

I don't blame a GM for not sufficiently planning for a great 3rd and 4th stringer at any position.

 

Blaming him for Story and Mondesi is clearly fair game..

[moonslav59]

I think our positions have reversed. I don't think last night's game was remotely "very winnable."

 

.

 

A 1-0 game should always b e "winnable," even we are being no hit. As it turned out, our offense scored more than 2 runs.

 

At the time the choice was made, the game was winnable.

[vegasbob]

IMO, you can only win the game you are currently playing , not tomorrow's or next week's. To me, Cora should have recognized that Rodriguez was having a bad night after 3 walks and a hit, prior to the Grand Slam. Maybe Cora was thinking it was 50-50 between a GIDP or just another walk then he makes a move to Sheriff . But maybe he should have thought that after 35 pitches with only 16 strikes, Rodriguez would try to push a strike over the plate and get bombed , which is what happened.

 

A statistically rare outcome but certainly possible, and those 4 runs, along with the ball Duran couldn't pull down in CF , resulting in a triple off Sheriff and a sac fly for the 9th run sunk the Sox 8 run outburst against the Reds lesser BP throwers.

 

So did Cora defer pulling Joely because he considered the game lost at 4-0 , due to dead bats in the 6th, or was he playing today's game vs the Reds saving ammo in the BP, OR was he actually preplaying the 4 game series with TB who waxed his team 4 straight a month and a half ago. Time to get the Sox act back together and win these next two.

Edited May 31, 2023 by vegasbob

[Maxbialystock]

I understand all that, but I’m still going with Wink in that situation only down 1-0 in the 5th inning. 3-0 no, but 1-0 yes. Any time you use Wink for 2-3 innings you burn him for a couple of days, but then you have the Kut Man.

 

I disagree, not because Winck couldn't/wouldn't have succeeded, but because the Sox hitting was dead, dead, dead until the the Red were up 8-0 and sent out their lousy relievers. As I keep reminding you, not only did Lively go 5.2 scoreless innings, but Young could easily have gone 1.1 scoreless innings but was pulled for the 7th because the Reds were up 8-0.

 

So to me Garza, ERA 1.42, was a reasonable compromise to pitch the 5th and the 6th. He got sabotaged by the defense while at the same time the lineup was moribund.

[Maxbialystock]

IMO, you can only win the game you are currently playing , not tomorrow's or next week's. To me, Cora should have recognized that Rodriguez was having a bad night after 3 walks and a hit, prior to the Grand Slam. Maybe Cora was thinking it was 50-50 between a GIDP or just another walk then he makes a move to Sheriff . But maybe he should have thought that after 35 pitches with only 16 strikes, Rodriguez would try to push a strike over the plate and get bombed , which is what happened.

 

A statistically rare outcome but certainly possible, and those 4 runs, along with the ball Duran couldn't pull down in CF , resulting in a triple off Sheriff and a sac fly for the 9th run sunk the Sox 8 run outburst against the Reds leeser BP.

 

So did Cora defer pulling Joely because he considered the game lost at 4-0 , due to dead bats in the 6th, or was he playing today's game vs the Reds saving ammo in the BP, OR was he actually preplaying the 4 game series with TB who waxed his team 4 straight a month and a half ago. Time to get the Sox act back together and win these next two.

 

Interesting. I think Cora was right last night, but have not considered when/whether pulling Rodriguez.

 

Also, as I keep saying relentlessly, you are assuming the Reds would have sent out their lousy relievers in a close game. I am not. I believe the Reds would have continued to shut down the Sox rotten hitting beyond the 6th inning if they had needed to. Young, ERA 2.91, needed just 4 pitches to get the last out in the 6th and could easily have pitched a scoreless 7th.

[Maxbialystock]

Using Wink who was more rested in a 1 run game in the 5th inning, and that would have left the Kut Man for tonight, or tomorrow night. That game was very winnable last night only down 1-0, and as it turned out more than likely. Tonight, and tomorrow nights game might not even be a need. Bad way to manage to me waiting a day, or two for a better chance in only being down 1-0. Of corse one of your sayings was I don’t agree with Cora, but I don’t think he was wrong. I think he was wrong, and I think it cost them a win.

 

I think our positions have reversed. I don't think last night's game was remotely "very winnable."

 

And I think the facts support me. Fact: the Sox were scoreless for the first six innings against Lively, 5.2 innings, and Young .1 inning. Young, ERA 2.91, could easily have pitched a scoreless 7th inning but by then the Reds were up, 8-0, thanks to brother Rodriguez.

 

So in came the Reds version of Brasier, Ort, Kluber, Rodriguez, whoever: Cruz, ERA 7.47, gave up 3 runs in the 7th and Salazar, ERA 16.20, gave up 5 more in the 9th. And, when things got out of control, in came Diaz for the save.

 

The Reds were in control of this game from the 3d inning on because the Sox lineup was lifeless until the Reds went up by 8-0 and sent in their junk relievers.

[moonslav59]

I disagree, not because Winck couldn't/wouldn't have succeeded, but because the Sox hitting was dead, dead, dead until the the Red were up 8-0 and sent out their lousy relievers. As I keep reminding you, not only did Lively go 5.2 scoreless innings, but Young could easily have gone 1.1 scoreless innings but was pulled for the 7th because the Reds were up 8-0.

 

So to me Garza, ERA 1.42, was a reasonable compromise to pitch the 5th and the 6th. He got sabotaged by the defense while at the same time the lineup was moribund.

 

You continually assume how a team is doing in the first few innings strongly projects what they will do to finish the game.

 

It's not like Cincy has a great pen, even if they used better ones right after Lively was pulled.

 

This team has often looked bad to start a game, only to explode later on. It's one thing this team is known for.

[Old Red]

On to Cincinnati game #2.