4/13/23 Thursday the 13th- What Could Go Wrong vs Rays ?

[moonslav59]

I agree with that at least in part. The Sox were never really committed to this "bloom thing". I don't know if the Sox brass were simply oblivious to the fact that what the Rays do involves an entire organization aimed at building what we have grown to recognize as a Rays Team at the ML level year after year or just hired Bloom as a marketing effort and hoped for the best. One guy alone was not going to do that.

 

For example has there been any recognizable effort by the Sox to build their pitching staff the way the Rays build theirs.....any effort to even make it resemble the Rays staff? Not that I have seen and we are what....four years into Bloom time. Its not a terrible Sox staff but it is not even a reasonable facsimile of the Rays staff. How does are ability to pump everyday players up from the farm and cut them loose when they are ready to start hauling' home the heavy iron look? Either you are all the way in or all the way out. This halfway s***, ain't cutting it from what I can see. Not surprised by that.

 

There has been a remarkable change in how many prospects, especially top ones, were traded under DD vs Bloom.

 

That is something similar to "The Rays Way," but without noticeable results, as of yet, except for maybe 2021.

 

DD traded over 20 prospects and young players that at some point were top 20 prospects with the Sox. What top prospects has Bloom traded? Aldo Ramirez? Jacob Wallace? Jay Groome?

 

There has been an obvious shift towards rebuilding the farm and a young player foundation. The have certainly been bumps along the way, and many of the trades for prospects were dud or appear to be heading that way. That does not change the fact that an effort was made to change the philosophy and strategy towards a longer term and more sustainable system.

 

I'm not defending the fact that we should be seeing concrete results, by now. I expected better by this year, and while I think our future looks way brighter than it did during and after 2019, and certainly better than after the Betts trade, the big club should be better than this.

 

We are not spending like the Rays or any other small market team. We just laid out over $650M since the Story signing and including the devers extension, which has not kicked in, yet.

 

The 2018 team was built from several prospects for stud trades, but also from a strong farm that existed 3-7 years prior to that magical season. We had 21 year old Devers, 23 year old Beni, 25 year olds Betts and Bogey along with 27 & 28 year olds Vaz and JBJ. That's 6 of the 9 positions from the farm.

 

I'm not here to bash DD. I like what he did and think it was all worth it. He actually left a better farm than I think any of us expected. We got Houck and now have casas, Bello, Mata and others he added to the farm knocking on the door, but that gap between Devers & Co and this new crop was just way too long and way too crippling.

 

Couple that lack of homegrown talent coming up with reduced spending and we have what we have, today.

 

Our best hope looks to be years from now. I've not given up on 2023, but this is looking real s*****.

 

It was hard to recover from the reality that our farm gave the big club, basically nobody (Houck?) since Devers was called up in 2017, which is closing in on 6 years, and expecting a farm to make up for that long drought after just 3.5 years at the helm may be expecting too much, but with the budget Bloom was given, since the Story signing, we should be better or at least look more promising than we do, so far in 2023.

[iortiz]

If that were the case, JH would have kept DD.

 

I think he was looking for a LAD philosophy. Good pipeline with great players surrounded.

[moonslav59]

JH may be thinking "hell, I've paid for 4 championships; I've full-filled my obligation as an owner."

 

It is 4 more than many of our previous owners and ownership groups.

 

I wonder, if he still has the drive to want more, of it's just about money, now.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

It is 4 more than many of our previous owners and ownership groups.

 

I wonder, if he still has the drive to want more, of it's just about money, now.

 

When 'money' is listed as one of the answers, I'll always choose money.

[Bellhorn04]

Meh, I give Bloom more the blame. The payroll is still up there so he has money to play with. He just decided to do patch work this season in hopes that it works.

 

Henry is the one who hired Bloom, so you can blame him for that.

[moonslav59]

When 'money' is listed as one of the answers, I'll always choose money.

 

He was making good money off the Sox when winning, too.

[a700hitter]

Kluber Klubbed and no Devers no offense. Attendance and viewership will plummet by Memorial Day.

[jacksonianmarch]

When you’ve got the 2 seed in the NBA and a record setting hockey team, you gotta be good to draw. The Sox suck. The ratings and attendance have already plummeted. The Sox are at risk of becoming apathetic

[iortiz]

When you’ve got the 2 seed in the NBA and a record setting hockey team, you gotta be good to draw. The Sox suck. The ratings and attendance have already plummeted. The Sox are at risk of becoming apathetic

 

In the end, big market team fans want to see super stars on the field. Aside Devers who else is a super star?

[jad]

When you’ve got the 2 seed in the NBA and a record setting hockey team, you gotta be good to draw. The Sox suck. The ratings and attendance have already plummeted. The Sox are at risk of becoming apathetic

 

Yeah, except that I'm in LA for the winter, so I got the trifecta: Ducks, Clippers, and RS. At least SC came back from the abyss.

[Bellhorn04]

In the end, big market team fans want to see super stars on the field. Aside Devers who else is a super star?

 

Aside from Devers who is even a star?

[Bellhorn04]

As Abraham said, it's a team of spare parts and aging veterans.

[jung]

I think Bloom has freedom to do whatever is needed to get the job done. Need to hire staff? Do it. Need players? do it.Need develop the farm? do it.

 

Said that If the later is not true, then we are the biggest lie in baseball. Ive been listened that the "money thing" has never been an issue. If they need to spend, he can spend.

 

I don't see any evidence that Bloom has attempted to build an organization under him that is the equivalent of what the Rays have. Why not? Is he afraid to see it get around that he is not the genius behind how the Rays are constructed year after year....that it is actually a total organizational effort? Bloom was disallowed from talking to Rays staff and offer any of them jobs till 2021. But its 2023 now. Still nothing that I have seen.

 

It looks to me like the Sox Brass bought in on Bloom and not on the Rays systemic methodology and I simply do not think Bloom is some sort of baseball genius. DD is a pure baseball guy. If you buy in on DD he will rape your farm system, spend lots of your money and give you a genuine shot at the title. Does not make DD a genius either but it does make him a guy with a proven track record for championships. I don't think Bloom can give you a reasonable shot at a title and I don't think he can do what Tampa does without the entire top to bottom organization that Tampa has or at least a very reasonable facsimile of it.

 

Worth noting that Tampa has no titles. Didn't before....don't have any now. But they play an exciting brand of baseball that keeps you watching. Had they a decent baseball market in Tampa I expect they would pack the place out especially with the rules changes. Maybe they have no titles because it takes big important players doing their thing in big moments in the post season to actually win one of these things and maybe that is where the Rays deficiencies come home to roost. But the more accepted thinking is that you get to the post season and the hottest team wins the thing. Not sure I have ever really agreed with that. But that is the accepted thinking. I do think the Rays can adapt to the rules changes faster than other teams. That might help put them over the top.

 

And actually I don't think its money as much as its an inability of the Sox brass to actually make a definitive decision beyond bringing in one guy....Bloom. Bloom maybe does not have his hands tied by a lack of money but an unwillingness on his part to let us see behind the curtain and recognize that what was making and does make the Rays the Rays is the organization in total....NOT BLOOM himself.

 

So from my seat, we are four years into Bloom's reign. He has done nothing that I can see that is even an effort to build a baseball ops effort that is a reasonable facsimile of wha the Rays have. He does not have a team that is a reasonable facsimile of the Rays team. The younger players we have that we developed that were anything are gone other than Rafi. What we have left for young talent seems painfully lacking and the ML team seems rather old, well onto the back 9 and past it. So none of that feels particularly promising.

 

IMO if what we headed into post Bloom's hiring is not a 5 year plan but a 10 year plan with the team neither playing exciting baseball nor winning championships, that is a problem. I think the canary in the coal mine for this tweener mentality is not paying Xander and having to watch what we are forced to toss out there at SS without him.

[TylerD]

Kluber Klubbed and no Devers no offense. Attendance and viewership will plummet by Memorial Day.

 

Missing Duvall is proving costly... granted... the offense as inconsistent as it is... The pitching is the biggest problem... Not giving us a chance at all other than game one of this series.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

He was making good money off the Sox when winning, too.

 

Like I posted earlier, if it wasn't about money, JH would not have fired DD.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Missing Duvall is proving costly... granted... the offense as inconsistent as it is... The pitching is the biggest problem... Not giving us a chance at all other than game one of this series.

 

A team, as the SOX have proven many times, can't compete with mediocre pitching and defense. Now that the SOX have added mediocre hitting into the mix this may be the worst season we'll endure in a very, very long time.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Actually, it is kinda hard to imagine, because he rarely does it. (Actually, 4th is an important slot.)

 

2021 Best OPS+

140 BLowe

136 Zunino

129 Aroz.

127 Franco

115 Meadows

114 Choi

110 Diaz

14th NCruz at 101

 

PAs 3rd

148 Cruz

135 Meadows

124 Franco

72 Aroz

54 Diaz

51 Choi

 

4th

233 Meadows

171 Diaz

96 BLowe

65 Aroz

47 Margot

 

2022 OPS+:

144 Diaz

125 Aroz

120 HRam

118 Franco

115 Choi

115 Paredas

106 Margot

103 B Lowe

 

 

3rd

206 Aroz

122 HRam

87 Franco

81 Choi

79 Diaz

 

4th

187 Choi

171 Aroz

144 HRam

45 Peralta

 

 

You really went through all that trouble to list stats to argue that the Rays' two best players aren't Franco and Arozarena?

 

One's the Rays highest-paid franchise guy at age 22, while the other set a postseason HR record as a rookie, stole home vs. Boston in the playoffs, and almost single-handedly won the WBC for Mexico a month ago.

 

That's all the research I need... from my waning memory banks.

[jad]

Meanwhile, Minnesota is up 9-0 on the Yankees and still batting in the first. Life may not be good, ... but it's ok.

[d-money]

Meanwhile, Minnesota is up 9-0 on the Yankees and still batting in the first. Life may not be good, ... but it's ok.

 

Can’t wait to see how the twinkies blow it lol. The yankeees literally owned them.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Can’t wait to see how the twinkies blow it lol. The yankeees literally owned them.

 

Minny should be ok tonight. It's not October.

[Bellhorn04]

They're Christian Vazquez's Twins now. He's been on 2 Sox teams that knocked the Yankees out of the playoffs. Maybe he'll bring them better mojo against the Evil Ones.

[moonslav59]

You really went through all that trouble to list stats to argue that the Rays' two best players aren't Franco and Arozarena?

 

One's the Rays highest-paid franchise guy at age 22, while the other set a postseason HR record as a rookie, stole home vs. Boston in the playoffs, and almost single-handedly won the WBC for Mexico a month ago.

 

That's all the research I need... from my waning memory banks.

 

Did you bother to look at the research?

 

Neither Franco or Aroz. hit 3rd or 4th in the top 2 for the 3 slot or top 3 in the 4 slot in 2022 or top 2 in either in 2021.

 

Total up all PAs batting 3rd and 4th, and they are down the list.

 

Here's another view:

 

Arozarena

596 PAs batting 3rd and 4th

806 PAs elsewhere

 

Franco

245 batting 3rd and 4th

570 others

 

2022

Franco

253 2nd

87 3rd

4 5th, 6th and 7th

 

Arozarena did bat most 3rd and 4th in '22

206 3rd

171 4th

125 5th

104 1st and 2nd

39 6 to 8th

 

but, not even close in 2021:

234 1st

131 2nd

72 3rd

65 4th

62 5th

41 6th to 8th

[jad]

They're Christian Vazquez's Twins now. He's been on 2 Sox teams that knocked the Yankees out of the playoffs. Maybe he'll bring them better mojo against the Evil Ones.

 

He's sure doing it tonight

[a700hitter]

As Abraham said, it's a team of spare parts and aging veterans.

That about sums it up.

[jad]

That about sums it up.

 

Only if by "spare parts" he means "after-market parts."

[a700hitter]

Only if by "spare parts" he means "after-market parts."

That is more accurate.