2023 Free Agents

[Old Red]

If Barnes came back from his bad 10 IP funk last year and pitched to his norms, you had Barnes, Houck, Whitlock, former closers Diekman and Robles, Strahm, Brasier, etc.

 

The problem is when most teams loot their bullpen for a SP, they take a guy from the backend, usually a long reliever/swing man. The Sox kept taking the late inning guys…

 

Barnes was so good he was left off the postseason roster, and you were counting on him? Come on man!

[notin]

Barnes was so good he was left off the postseason roster, and you were counting on him? Come on man!

 

Not sure why you keep holding me accountable. He did deserve to be left off the postseason roster, but he also deserved to be an AL All Star just 3 months prior.

 

And his bad stretch last year was also just 10 IP. Should the Sox DFA every pitcher who has a stretch of 10 bad IP?

[Old Red]

Not sure why you keep holding me accountable. He did deserve to be left off the postseason roster, but he also deserved to be an AL All Star just 3 months prior.

 

And his bad stretch last year was also just 10 IP. Should the Sox DFA every pitcher who has a stretch of 10 bad IP?

And he picked right up where he left off last year this year. Come on man!

[notin]

And he picked right up where he left off last year this year. Come on man!

 

So you’re saying what? He shouldn’t have been part of the bullpen?

 

He got the second chance he deserved, but he didn’t do much at all with it.

 

I’m not really sold on his brief turnaround for next year, but he’ll probably be back again…

[Old Red]

So you’re saying what? He shouldn’t have been part of the bullpen?

 

He got the second chance he deserved, but he didn’t do much at all with it.

 

I’m not really sold on his brief turnaround for next year, but he’ll probably be back again…

I’m saying he never should have been counted on to be the closer to start the year.

[notin]

I’m saying he never should have been counted on to be the closer to start the year.

 

He wasn’t.

 

Barnes had 2 save chances in April and the first one was April 22.

 

The early choice for closer appeared to be Diekman…

[a700hitter]

He wasn’t.

 

Barnes had 2 save chances in April and the first one was April 22.

 

The early choice for closer appeared to be Diekman…

Barnes had imploded in the second half of 21. He did not break camp in 22 as the closer.

[moonslav59]

Outside of the trade for JBJ the biggest problem to me going into the season was not having a plan...

 

They certainly had a plan. It's one thing to disagree with it, but saying they did not even have a plan is not accurate. If saying that is just hyperbole, fine, but they had a plan and injury contingency plans at every position.

 

IMO, the problem was "the plan" went wrong at too many positions, and many of the contingencies plans failed. The back-up SP'er plan collapsed due to needing to go 3-4 deep for much of the season- having to pull from the pen, at times (Houck & Whitlock.)

 

Out of 144 games, we saw 53 starts from these "back-ups!"

14 Wink

12 Crawford

9 Whitlock

8 Bello

4 Houck

3 Davis & Seabold

 

That's 37%. This caused not only the need to rob from the pen but to tax them with more IP than should have been planned for. Our pen injuries were also excessive, and we did have some long injuries, including Taylor, Houck, Strahm, Barnes and marginal pitchers like Brasier and others. Even Whitlock & Schreiber missed time. I'm not making excuses. We should have added more proven arms, and the Diekman & Robles choice were a failures, but it was a plan.

 

The rest of the plan that went wrong, included:

 

1B: The plan was to go with a player who had an OPS over .800 in his first 500+ PAs- thinking there was a chance he'd build off his strong second half of 2021 and maybe get even better. The back up plan was Casas, who was widely viewed as being ML ready by May, at the latest (exactly the length of rope a failing Dalbec might require.) Not having a true 3rd option could be viewed as "no plan," I agree, but I think the idea was that Dalbec and Casas could get us to the trade deadline. Needing to use Franchy and Arroyo at 1B did not work well.

 

2B: Story was a late signing- perhaps an afer thought forced on Bloom. Maybe someday we will know the workings behind that deal. Having an oft-injured Arroyo as the back-up was still a pretty solid plan, and Downs was viewed as a capable deep depth option- at least decent on D.

 

CF: Kike was viewed as a solid CF'er. Big plus on D and decent on O. His injuries crippled us, and I would agree that having Duran as the back-up plan was a mistake, but seeing the 4th OF'er as the biggest hole on a team is not all that short-sighted.

 

RF: JBJ was the plan, and the plan failed spectacularly, here. Many of us foresaw the failure, so it's easy to label it as "no plan," but it was a plan. Refsnyder ended up being an unforeseen nice depth piece added by Bloom, but he is largely overlooked by those focused on mostly the bad moves.

 

DH: Counting on JD was likely a forced choice and not a bad plan.

 

The rotation plan was probably something like this:

 

Sale

Nate

Wacha

Pivetta

Hill

(Paxton joining in late July or August to take over for a likely injury or decline by one of the 5.)

 

Crawford, Seabold, Winckowski and eventually Bello in the wings, but maybe not ready in April. (Houck and Whitlock as emergency help)

 

That's not a horrible plan. IMO, it's not even a bad one.

 

The early Sale injury hurt- big time. One can rightfully argue, it should have been expected and planned for, but I think we did have a plan: Paxton later in the season and some ML ready prospects earlier in the year and Whitlock or Houck as emergency options.

 

As it turned out, we needed to use both Houck and Whitlock for 13 starts, which severely taxed and shortened the pen early in the season. This put us in a deep hole, we never got out of. Maybe we could have tried Crawford or Wink earlier, instead of taking Houck- then Whitlock out of the pen, and those choices would likely be debated all year long, too.

 

Has Bloom been given $10-20M more in budget spending, maybe we'd have signed- a couple more or better RP'ers than we did sign. I doubt we'd have added a 1Bman like Bell, but we might have signed Pham.

 

One can argue that signing someone else besides Story would have been a better plan, but that was a plan.

 

One can argue not trading Renfroe, which also would have allowed us to spend more on the pen or on Pham was a better plan, but that too was a plan.

 

[moonslav59]

Barnes had imploded in the second half of 21. He did not break camp in 22 as the closer.

 

No, he did not, but the "second half or '21" was basically 10 IP.

 

I don't think Bloom was wrong to count on him to be a possible solid set-up man that might possibly or even likely win over the closer role from Diekman.

[Larry Cook]

The market for bogey appears to include the giants and the Phillies.

 

We need to do whatever it takes to sign turner.

 

Our 2023 infield:

 

1st base - cassas/hosmer. Just keep cassas away from lefties.

 

2nd base - story. Can also back up short stop.

 

Ss - turner. Lead off hitter. Good defense and can hit.

 

3rd base - devers. He has to get back to mashing and not yet loser we have seen for the last 50 days.

 

Utility - arroyo. When healthy, he can hit.

[moonslav59]

The market for bogey appears to include the giants and the Phillies.

 

We need to do whatever it takes to sign turner.

 

Our 2023 infield:

 

1st base - cassas/hosmer. Just keep cassas away from lefties.

 

2nd base - story. Can also back up short stop.

 

Ss - turner. Lead off hitter. Good defense and can hit.

 

3rd base - devers. He has to get back to mashing and not yet loser we have seen for the last 50 days.

 

Utility - arroyo. When healthy, he can hit.

 

He might get near Seager money, so I’m guessing no on Turner.

 

I think we go for Swanson, Anderson or K Wong and move Story toSS.

[Larry Cook]

He might get near Seager money, so I’m guessing no on Turner.

 

I think we go for Swanson, Anderson or K Wong and move Story toSS.

 

I got no problem giving turner a 300 million contract similar to seager.

 

With bogey opting out, our payroll for 2023 is currently at 112 million, I think.

 

Plenty of room for wacha, turner and diaz!

[Old Red]

They certainly had a plan. It's one thing to disagree with it, but saying they did not even have a plan is not accurate. If saying that is just hyperbole, fine, but they had a plan and injury contingency plans at every position.

 

IMO, the problem was "the plan" went wrong at too many positions, and many of the contingencies plans failed. The back-up SP'er plan collapsed due to needing to go 3-4 deep for much of the season- having to pull from the pen, at times (Houck & Whitlock.)

 

Out of 144 games, we saw 53 starts from these "back-ups!"

14 Wink

12 Crawford

9 Whitlock

8 Bello

4 Houck

3 Davis & Seabold

 

That's 37%. This caused not only the need to rob from the pen but to tax them with more IP than should have been planned for. Our pen injuries were also excessive, and we did have some long injuries, including Taylor, Houck, Strahm, Barnes and marginal pitchers like Brasier and others. Even Whitlock & Schreiber missed time. I'm not making excuses. We should have added more proven arms, and the Diekman & Robles choice were a failures, but it was a plan.

 

The rest of the plan that went wrong, included:

 

1B: The plan was to go with a player who had an OPS over .800 in his first 500+ PAs- thinking there was a chance he'd build off his strong second half of 2021 and maybe get even better. The back up plan was Casas, who was widely viewed as being ML ready by May, at the latest (exactly the length of rope a failing Dalbec might require.) Not having a true 3rd option could be viewed as "no plan," I agree, but I think the idea was that Dalbec and Casas could get us to the trade deadline. Needing to use Franchy and Arroyo at 1B did not work well.

 

2B: Story was a late signing- perhaps an afer thought forced on Bloom. Maybe someday we will know the workings behind that deal. Having an oft-injured Arroyo as the back-up was still a pretty solid plan, and Downs was viewed as a capable deep depth option- at least decent on D.

 

CF: Kike was viewed as a solid CF'er. Big plus on D and decent on O. His injuries crippled us, and I would agree that having Duran as the back-up plan was a mistake, but seeing the 4th OF'er as the biggest hole on a team is not all that short-sighted.

 

RF: JBJ was the plan, and the plan failed spectacularly, here. Many of us foresaw the failure, so it's easy to label it as "no plan," but it was a plan. Refsnyder ended up being an unforeseen nice depth piece added by Bloom, but he is largely overlooked by those focused on mostly the bad moves.

 

DH: Counting on JD was likely a forced choice and not a bad plan.

 

The rotation plan was probably something like this:

 

Sale

Nate

Wacha

Pivetta

Hill

(Paxton joining in late July or August to take over for a likely injury or decline by one of the 5.)

 

Crawford, Seabold, Winckowski and eventually Bello in the wings, but maybe not ready in April. (Houck and Whitlock as emergency help)

 

That's not a horrible plan. IMO, it's not even a bad one.

 

The early Sale injury hurt- big time. One can rightfully argue, it should have been expected and planned for, but I think we did have a plan: Paxton later in the season and some ML ready prospects earlier in the year and Whitlock or Houck as emergency options.

 

As it turned out, we needed to use both Houck and Whitlock for 13 starts, which severely taxed and shortened the pen early in the season. This put us in a deep hole, we never got out of. Maybe we could have tried Crawford or Wink earlier, instead of taking Houck- then Whitlock out of the pen, and those choices would likely be debated all year long, too.

 

Has Bloom been given $10-20M more in budget spending, maybe we'd have signed- a couple more or better RP'ers than we did sign. I doubt we'd have added a 1Bman like Bell, but we might have signed Pham.

 

One can argue that signing someone else besides Story would have been a better plan, but that was a plan.

 

One can argue not trading Renfroe, which also would have allowed us to spend more on the pen or on Pham was a better plan, but that too was a plan.

 

I was only talking about the BP when I said there was no plan. To start the season there was no established closer, or setup man. Sale went down before spring training even started, and neither Houck, or Whitlock were even considered for closer, or setup at that time, so like I said No established closer was there to start the season. That does not sound like much of a plan to me.

[moonslav59]

I was only talking about the BP when I said there was no plan. To start the season there was no established closer, or setup man. Sale went down before spring training even started, and neither Houck, or Whitlock were even considered for closer, or setup at that time, so like I said No established closer was there to start the season. That does not sound like much of a plan to me.

 

Like I said, maybe not a good plan, but a plan.

 

I'm not sure how many solid closer options were out there after Sale got hurt just prior to ST'ing, but before the injury, I'm not sure thinking one from Houck, Whitlock (your guy), Diekman and Barnes can be called "no plan."

[moonslav59]

I got no problem giving turner a 300 million contract similar to seager.

 

With bogey opting out, our payroll for 2023 is currently at 112 million, I think.

 

Plenty of room for wacha, turner and diaz!

 

They will all get several years, and when we go to reset next year, you'd be saying good bye to Devers.

 

I'd rather pay $200M/8 for Bogey or $150M/8 for Swanson, or just get KWong for less than that.

[Old Red]

Like I said, maybe not a good plan, but a plan.

 

I'm not sure how many solid closer options were out there after Sale got hurt just prior to ST'ing, but before the injury, I'm not sure thinking one from Houck, Whitlock (your guy), Diekmann and Barnes can be called "no plan."

Why was there no plan to add an experienced closer in the off season? Sale getting hurt had nothing to do with that not happening. and to me that should have been done anyways. I only said Whitlock should have been the closer, which he wasn’t on opening day, because he was the best option at the time, and based off last year’s effectiveness.

[moonslav59]

Why was there no plan to add an experienced closer in the off season? Sale getting hurt had nothing to do with that not happening. and to me that should have been done anyways. I only said Whitlock should have been the closer, which he wasn’t on opening day, because he was the best option at the time, and based off last year’s effectiveness.

 

I think "the plan" was to use Houck or Whitlock, but the Sale injury forced Houck and then Whitlock to start.

 

I also think, with a limited spending budget, they had to choose a few positions to go with what we had at a few them, like the pen, 1B, and 4th OF'er.

 

In hindsight, a few easily better plans might have been...

 

1. Not signing Story and going lighter at 1B (A Frazier) and then spending more on the pen and OF.

2. Not trading Renfroe and using the money saved on upgrading the pen.

3. Trading JD, maybe with some cash, to save enough to upgrade the pen and maybe sign Bell of someone else to play RF, 1B, CF and or DH.

 

[moonslav59]

If all of these guys were healthy and allowed to stay in the pen, all year, I doubt we'd be talking about how awful our pen has been:

 

Whitlock

Houck

Taylor

Barnes

 

Depth:

Diekman

Strahm

Robles, Davis, Brasier, Danish

 

Not really part of "the plan"

Schreiber

 

 

[Old Red]

I think "the plan" was to use Houck or Whitlock, but the Sale injury forced Houck and then Whitlock to start.

 

I also think, with a limited spending budget, they had to choose a few positions to go with what we had at a few them, like the pen, 1B, and 4th OF'er.

 

In hindsight, a few easily better plans might have been...

 

1. Not signing Story and going lighter at 1B (A Frazier) and then spending more on the pen and OF.

2. Not trading Renfroe and using the money saved on upgrading the pen.

3. Trading JD, maybe with some cash, to save enough to upgrade the pen and maybe sign Bell of someone else to play RF, 1B, CF and or DH.

 

Either way not much of anything worked out.

[Old Red]

If all of these guys were healthy and allowed to stay in the pen, all year, I doubt we'd be talking about how awful our pen has been:

 

Whitlock

Houck

Taylor

Barnes

 

Depth:

Diekman

Strahm

Robles, Davis, Brasier, Danish

 

Not really part of "the plan"

Schreiber

 

 

Right now of who’s on the staff who can you really count on next year, and in what role?

[notin]

Either way not much of anything worked out.

 

But at least only Story is signed long term. Not like anyone added a lot of deals hamstringing 2023…

[notin]

Right now of who’s on the staff who can you really count on next year, and in what role?

 

Whitlock, Schreiber can be counted one. Taylor, too, if healthy.

 

I think Houck gets traded…

[moonslav59]

Either way not much of anything worked out.

 

Agreed, and the Houck piggyback idea didn't help.

 

My point is, I don't think it was a bad plan. It was a sketchy plan that did not work, as was 1B, RF, DH and SP depth.

 

Bloom chose to go big at 2B (assuming he wasn't pushed into that late signing) and with the remaining budget was forced to go light.

 

Some worked out: Wacha, Strahm, Schreiber, Refsnyder and maybe Hill to a lesser extent.

 

Some did not: Diekman (although we got McGuire for him and got out of paying 2024), Robles and maybe Story.

 

Had Bloom spent big on the pen, we'd be bitching about the rotation and 2B more.

[Bellhorn04]

I think Houck gets traded…

 

Whyzat?

[notin]

Agreed, and the Houck piggyback idea didn't help.

 

My point is, I don't think it was a bad plan. It was a sketchy plan that did not work, as was 1B, RF, DH and SP depth.

 

Bloom chose to go big at 2B (assuming he wasn't pushed into that late signing) and with the remaining budget was forced to go light.

 

Some worked out: Wacha, Strahm, Schreiber, Refsnyder and maybe Hill to a lesser extent.

 

Some did not: Diekman (although we got McGuire for him and got out of paying 2024), Robles and maybe Story.

 

Had Bloom spent big on the pen, we'd be bitching about the rotation and 2B more.

 

 

If healthy, it’s a good team.

 

With normal injuries, it’s a competitive team.

 

But they really just had too many. At one point, Sale, Eovaldi, Wacha, Whitlock and Hill were all out. Losing 5 SPs derails any team…&

[notin]

Whyzat?

 

Bloom makes at least one trade every year I just don’t expect. Benintendi in 2020. Renfroe after 2021.

 

Houck just feels like this year’s guy. He’s a good relief pitcher, but he didn’t excel in any role this past year, and his vaccination status makes him a liability…

[Old Red]

If healthy, it’s a good team.

 

With normal injuries, it’s a competitive team.

 

But they really just had too many. At one point, Sale, Eovaldi, Wacha, Whitlock and Hill were all out. Losing 5 SPs derails any team…&

 

Injuries played a part, but sub par performances from their better players played a big part too.

[moonslav59]

Injuries played a part, but sub par performances from their better players played a big part too.

 

Indeed, but it's hard to expect a GM to plan on basically every returning vet to decline in production. Sure, some were expected- like maybe JD (age), Nate (age) and Dalbec (due to inconsistency in the past), but had Bloom been a fortuneteller, he'd have had to almost trade away the whole team to do better.

[moonslav59]

Bloom makes at least one trade every year I just don’t expect. Benintendi in 2020. Renfroe after 2021.

 

Houck just feels like this year’s guy. He’s a good relief pitcher, but he didn’t excel in any role this past year, and his vaccination status makes him a liability…

 

I'm not sure the non Vaxxed will be banned, next year, but maybe they view that choice of his as being, in some sense, "anti-team player."

 

With the back surgery, I'm not sure about Houck's stock value, right now.

[Old Red]

Indeed, but it's hard to expect a GM to plan on basically every returning vet to decline in production. Sure, some were expected- like maybe JD (age), Nate (age) and Dalbec (due to inconsistency in the past), but had Bloom been a fortuneteller, he'd have had to almost trade away the whole team to do better.

I thought JD would still be good for 20 HR, and 80-90 RBI, but his power was gone all year, and his Ave too after a pretty good start.