Vazquez traded to Houston

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

He was the clubhouse leader, for sure, yet the team did not pout and cry, when he was traded.

 

Yet, this team management was bashed for trading one our three apparent clubhouse leaders, in Vaz, and the team did not come close to responding like the O's did after the Mancini trade.

 

Oh, the intricacies of the game of baseball.

 

Could it also be that anyone playing for Baltimore this century knows and accepts a lot more about the professional angles of being annual tradebait and tanking?

 

Just saying: Red Sox players with World Series rings might equate being respected -- and disrespected -- a bit differently.

[moonslav59]

Could it also be that anyone playing for Baltimore this century knows and accepts a lot more about the professional angles of being annual tradebait and tanking?

 

Just saying: Red Sox players with World Series rings might equate being respected -- and disrespected -- a bit differently.

 

No doubt, that plays into it, hence the "intricacy" term used.

[notin]

Could it also be that anyone playing for Baltimore this century knows and accepts a lot more about the professional angles of being annual tradebait and tanking?

 

Just saying: Red Sox players with World Series rings might equate being respected -- and disrespected -- a bit differently.

 

No.

 

MLB is populated solely by the best 776 baseball players in the world. Most of these players have never lost anywhere and don’t expect to start now. Do you really think the Orioles players never believed in themselves?

 

Odd semi-related story - I was watching BBTN a couple weeks back and the discussion was about how players react to being traded. One of the guests was Cameron Maybin, who talked about how shocked he was the Tigers traded him. Did they lose faith? “I’m a first round pick!” He was angry. He was upset. He could’ve understand it.

 

Then he was told it was for Miguel Cabrera.

 

His reaction? “Oh. That makes sense.”

 

And he was a recent draft pick at the time!! So I think, like Cameron, the Orioles’ players have always just believed in themselves…

[Kimmi]

Not only do we seem to have a void in clubhouse leadership, they aren't leading by example either.

 

What bugs me the most is that people are lauding the leadership skills of Vaz and others and blaming the team malaise on trading Vaz.

 

Where was the team energy and focus before the trade?

 

I always felt the energy and desire from Vazquez. I understand that losing him is a blow to the clubhouse.

 

I have been disappointed in Bogaerts this year, starting with the "I'm a shortstop" response when asked if he'd be willing to move to a different position.

[sk7326]

In hindsight, was it right to can Tito?

 

I think Tito was happy to step away on some level. Tito did not deserve to be fired on the basis of that team - but then you could make a decent case that Grady Little should have survived 2003. But Francona in the intervening years has reinforced what a great manager he is. I'd suspect Cora would do the same elsewhere.

[Kimmi]

Gee, I wonder why. Given that all the talk this year has been about trading them away for prospects, and F.O. has done absolutely nothing to quash that.

 

It doesn't matter. Teams and players go through this every year. Players should never be of the mindset that they are not good enough to win. More importantly, that attitude should never be conveyed to the public by the team leader.

 

If Bogaerts has checked out on his team, then shame on him.

[Kimmi]

Well, they didn’t actually trade them. Does that not quash it?

 

They also made it very clear to Bogaerts that he was not going to be traded at the deadline.

[Kimmi]

The BIGGEST void in leadership starts at the top with BLOOM. There was team malaise to start the season, and a 10-19 showed that, and I don’t believe the Bungling Bloom handing of the contracts of Bogey, and Raffy helped matters, so lack of leadership yes, but it starts with Bloom, and Cora.

 

The 10-19 start has nothing to do with Bloom. Most teams will have stretches similar to that. The Yankees have been a .421 team for about 6 weeks now and a .250 team in the month of August. Is that to be blamed on Cashman or the handling of Judge's contract? It's the ebb and flow of a baseball season, compounded by injuries.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

No.

 

MLB is populated solely by the best 776 baseball players in the world. Most of these players have never lost anywhere and don’t expect to start now. Do you really think the Orioles players never believed in themselves?

 

 

I never said that about the O's. Maybe they're just better adjusted pros. And from what many fans sense are players wearing Boston shirts going through the motions, maybe some of the Red Sox aren't. Yet.

[moonslav59]

I always felt the energy and desire from Vazquez. I understand that losing him is a blow to the clubhouse.

 

I have been disappointed in Bogaerts this year, starting with the "I'm a shortstop" response when asked if he'd be willing to move to a different position.

 

Agreed. I was going to bring up the "I'm the shortstop" thing again, but I caught so much grief over it, that I chose not to do it.

 

It did seem like Bogey stepped up his defensive game, this year, and I'm not attributing that to the Story acquisition, but his offense certainly took a hit, particularly with his power and hitting when it counted most.

 

The whole "team leadership" thing is hard to quantify, but I do think it is real, but my point has been, recently, that if someone is to be praised as a team leader, and his team seems to be lacking focus, making mental mistakes over and over and seemingly just going through the motions, shouldn't those leadership skills be called into question just like a slumping player's offensive skills are questioned?

 

When Vaz was traded, where were Bogey and JD taking up the slack and directing the team to stay focused and concentrate on the improvements made to the team, and the fact that the WC was still in reach?

 

Maybe they tried their best. Who knows what was said and done. I don't trust media reporting, but teh team did lose focus. That's not only on Cora, but it's also on the clubhouse leaders, too.

[moonslav59]

The 10-19 start has nothing to do with Bloom. Most teams will have stretches similar to that. The Yankees have been a .421 team for about 6 weeks now and a .250 team in the month of August. Is that to be blamed on Cashman or the handling of Judge's contract? It's the ebb and flow of a baseball season, compounded by injuries.

 

Yes, and to add to this, the Yanks made a few high profile moves at the deadline to give the team the impression they cared. I thought thatw as supposed to motivate a team.

 

LOL.

[Old Red]

The 10-19 start has nothing to do with Bloom. Most teams will have stretches similar to that. The Yankees have been a .421 team for about 6 weeks now and a .250 team in the month of August. Is that to be blamed on Cashman or the handling of Judge's contract? It's the ebb and flow of a baseball season, compounded by injuries.

 

We’ll have to disagree that the 10-19 start had nothing to do with Bloom, because the lack of a closer played a part in that bad start. Yes the season has ebbs, and flows that can get compounded by a rash of injuries, but also having the right personnel on the roster plays a big part.

[Kimmi]

Having a chicken and beer party during the game is plain wrong . There is no excuse for it . I know I am old school , but the amount of nonsense , goofing off , gold bricking and lolly gagging that goes on today is disgraceful. And not just in baseball. It is everywhere. And the people in management and supervisory positions that allow it are a joke.

 

I agree with this, and the reasoning that this type of thing goes on in all clubhouses is not acceptable.

 

That said, this was blown way out of proportion.

[Old Red]

Agreed. I was going to bring up the "I'm the shortstop" thing again, but I caught so much grief over it, that I chose not to do it.

 

It did seem like Bogey stepped up his defensive game, this year, and I'm not attributing that to the Story acquisition, but his offense certainly took a hit, particularly with his power and hitting when it counted most.

 

The whole "team leadership" thing is hard to quantify, but I do think it is real, but my point has been, recently, that if someone is to be praised as a team leader, and his team seems to be lacking focus, making mental mistakes over and over and seemingly just going through the motions, shouldn't those leadership skills be called into question just like a slumping player's offensive skills are questioned?

 

When Vaz was traded, where were Bogey and JD taking up the slack and directing the team to stay focused and concentrate on the improvements made to the team, and the fact that the WC was still in reach?

 

Maybe they tried their best. Who knows what was said and done. I don't trust media reporting, but teh team did lose focus. That's not only on Cora, but it's also on the clubhouse leaders, too.

I’m all for getting on Bogey when it is needed, and his offensive output has been lacking. Even though he been hitting above 300 this year it really doesn’t feel like it. Bolting the clubhouse, and not talking to the media after the game, and his base running blunder Sat night was not a good look.

[Kimmi]

I think trading Mancini was a slap in the face to long suffering Oriole's fans , who were just starting to get excited about the team . It has to hurt their chances of making the playoffs. The players are surely playing hard , but Mancini has to be missed..

 

No doubt that Mancini is missed, by the team and fans alike. My point is that the Red Sox cannot use trading Vazquez as any kind of excuse. IMO, they actually got better at the deadline, not worse. Lose the defeatist attitude and play like you have a chance to make the playoffs. The talent is there.

[Kimmi]

Could it also be that anyone playing for Baltimore this century knows and accepts a lot more about the professional angles of being annual tradebait and tanking?

 

Just saying: Red Sox players with World Series rings might equate being respected -- and disrespected -- a bit differently.

 

That should not make a difference.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The whole "team leadership" thing is hard to quantify, but I do think it is real, but my point has been, recently, that if someone is to be praised as a team leader, and his team seems to be lacking focus, making mental mistakes over and over and seemingly just going through the motions, shouldn't those leadership skills be called into question just like a slumping player's offensive skills are questioned?

 

 

Good points. My step-dad who played for money always preached team chemistry as the biggest difference between a championship team and other contenders.

 

I could never quite understand how much that matters in baseball -- the sum deeds of isolated individuals. You can't block for a teammate or set a pick or pass the ball. Even if your line-up is comprised of sworn enemies only out for selfish stats, if successful, would'nt those hits and runs on offense, or outs and goose eggs on defense result in victories?

[notin]

I always felt the energy and desire from Vazquez. I understand that losing him is a blow to the clubhouse.

 

 

I can’t and won’t try to quantify what losing Vazquez meant to the clubhouse, but at what point do we accept than any leadership void created might be filled by Hosmer?

 

Hosmer is rather “meh” as a player, but he was the public face of the 2015 Royals…

[Old Red]

I always felt the energy and desire from Vazquez. I understand that losing him is a blow to the clubhouse.

 

I have been disappointed in Bogaerts this year, starting with the "I'm a shortstop" response when asked if he'd be willing to move to a different position.

 

Bogey was asked by a reporter, but was Bogey ever asked by Cora, or the ball club to move to another position? Just asking.

[moonslav59]

No doubt that Mancini is missed, by the team and fans alike. My point is that the Red Sox cannot use trading Vazquez as any kind of excuse. IMO, they actually got better at the deadline, not worse. Lose the defeatist attitude and play like you have a chance to make the playoffs. The talent is there.

 

Better put than I tried to say.

 

Trades are made, every year. We lost a good player in Vaz, but like you said, we got better, overall. If players were hanging their heads over the Vaz loss, maybe we need bigger changes than I imagine we do.

[dgalehouse]

No doubt that Mancini is missed, by the team and fans alike. My point is that the Red Sox cannot use trading Vazquez as any kind of excuse. IMO, they actually got better at the deadline, not worse. Lose the defeatist attitude and play like you have a chance to make the playoffs. The talent is there.

 

I agree with this . I never give up hope and I don't expect the players or manager to either.

[Old Red]

I agree with this . I never give up hope and I don't expect the players or manager to either.

 

I don’t think the paying fans would either, or would have liked a fire sale. I’m sure they would rather watch more of Bogey, JD, and Evol than more of Duran, Franchy, and DHern.

[Kimmi]

Agreed. I was going to bring up the "I'm the shortstop" thing again, but I caught so much grief over it, that I chose not to do it.

 

It did seem like Bogey stepped up his defensive game, this year, and I'm not attributing that to the Story acquisition, but his offense certainly took a hit, particularly with his power and hitting when it counted most.

 

The whole "team leadership" thing is hard to quantify, but I do think it is real, but my point has been, recently, that if someone is to be praised as a team leader, and his team seems to be lacking focus, making mental mistakes over and over and seemingly just going through the motions, shouldn't those leadership skills be called into question just like a slumping player's offensive skills are questioned?

 

When Vaz was traded, where were Bogey and JD taking up the slack and directing the team to stay focused and concentrate on the improvements made to the team, and the fact that the WC was still in reach?

 

Maybe they tried their best. Who knows what was said and done. I don't trust media reporting, but teh team did lose focus. That's not only on Cora, but it's also on the clubhouse leaders, too.

 

It's all just speculation on our parts, but I agree. I get the impression that Bogaerts is deflated. One of the reporters or analysts commented that Duran, in particular, was really in need of some strong team leadership and he wasn't getting it. That's on the veteran players.

 

I like Bogaerts and JD a lot, so I'm really not trying to criticize either one. I think that both players really want to win every game. I'm just not sure if either is exuding a lot of confidence to their teammates in the clubhouse.

[Kimmi]

Yes, and to add to this, the Yanks made a few high profile moves at the deadline to give the team the impression they cared. I thought thatw as supposed to motivate a team.

 

LOL.

 

I think there is something to the idea that making some strong deadline acquisitions sends a motivating message to the team. And that not making a big acquisition can be deflating to a team. We've seen examples against both cases though. In the end, the existing players have to do their parts.

[Kimmi]

We’ll have to disagree that the 10-19 start had nothing to do with Bloom, because the lack of a closer played a part in that bad start. Yes the season has ebbs, and flows that can get compounded by a rash of injuries, but also having the right personnel on the roster plays a big part.

 

I am still blaming that 10-19 start more on the offense, or lack thereof, than I am on the bullpen. Bloom put together an offense that should be one of the top offenses in the league. They have underperformed. Not Bloom's fault.

[Maxbialystock]

We’ll have to disagree that the 10-19 start had nothing to do with Bloom, because the lack of a closer played a part in that bad start. Yes the season has ebbs, and flows that can get compounded by a rash of injuries, but also having the right personnel on the roster plays a big part.

 

During their last 11 games of 2021, the Sox beat the Yankees in the wild card game, slaughtered 100 wins Tampa (most wins in AL) 3 games to 1, and finally lost 4 games to 2 to the Astros in the ALCS, and they did all that without a freaking closer. Their one blown save was by Houck in the 6th inning of a game Sale started but only lasted 2.2 freaking innings.

 

During this year's 10-19 opening run, the Sox couldn't hit spit. Plus they needed Houck and Whitlock to shore up the rotation and do some long-relieving. They didn't use Schreiber as the closer for the simple reason that in his two prior seasons with the Tigers his ERA's were 6.23 and 6.32.

[Maxbialystock]

We’ll have to disagree that the 10-19 start had nothing to do with Bloom, because the lack of a closer played a part in that bad start. Yes the season has ebbs, and flows that can get compounded by a rash of injuries, but also having the right personnel on the roster plays a big part.

 

During their last 11 games of 2021, the Sox beat the Yankees in the wild card game, slaughtered 100 wins Tampa (most wins in AL) 3 games to 1 in the ALDS, and finally lost 4 games to 2 to the Astros in the ALCS, and they did all that without a freaking closer. Their one blown save was by Houck in the 6th inning of a game Sale started but only lasted 2.2 freaking innings.

 

During this year's 10-19 opening run, the Sox couldn't hit spit. Plus they needed Houck and Whitlock to shore up the rotation and do some long-relieving. They didn't use Schreiber as the closer for the simple reason that in his two prior seasons with the Tigers his ERA's were 6.23 and 6.32.

[Kimmi]

I can’t and won’t try to quantify what losing Vazquez meant to the clubhouse, but at what point do we accept than any leadership void created might be filled by Hosmer?

 

Hosmer is rather “meh” as a player, but he was the public face of the 2015 Royals…

 

Vaz was the longest tenured player, but even with that being the case, Bogaerts was always touted as the team leader. He needs to step it up in that role. Hosmer should be a great clubhouse presence, though being a newcomer, it might take a little longer for him to become a team leader.

[Kimmi]

I agree with this . I never give up hope and I don't expect the players or manager to either.

 

We often disagree, but I'm with you 100% on this. Welcome to the posse.

[Kimmi]

During their last 11 games of 2021, the Sox beat the Yankees in the wild card game, slaughtered 100 wins Tampa (most wins in AL) 3 games to 1, and finally lost 4 games to 2 to the Astros in the ALCS, and they did all that without a freaking closer. Their one blown save was by Houck in the 6th inning of a game Sale started but only lasted 2.2 freaking innings.

 

During this year's 10-19 opening run, the Sox couldn't hit spit. Plus they needed Houck and Whitlock to shore up the rotation and do some long-relieving. They didn't use Schreiber as the closer for the simple reason that in his two prior seasons with the Tigers his ERA's were 6.23 and 6.32.

 

Yes, yes, yes.