The Way Too Early Tear Down Thread

[Bellhorn04]

I think the Yankees are a lot better team this year then they were last year.

 

I don't disagree.

[mvp 78]

Finally after today the Red Sox will get to play against a winning team. What’s it been like 8 series in a row against losing teams with 4 of them against last place teams since they played against a winning team. It’s been nice to rack up all these wins, but for me it’s been really hard to get into these games against such bad competition especially for so long a time. I know in early July the Sox play 14 games straight against NY, and Tampa with a 3 game with Toronto at the end. So come the end of July we’ll see if this is a real playoff team, or one where some will get their wish, and see a big fire sale. Just the prospect of getting more prospects have had some salivating for some time now.

 

The benefit of playing teams like the Rays and the Jays is that if you take 2 or 3 from them, you picking up games in the standings. I think Bloom needs to see what he has here. If the team falls flat, he'll need to deal. If they play well, maybe he rolls the dice and tries to go for it again.

[Old Red]

The benefit of playing teams like the Rays and the Jays is that if you take 2 or 3 from them, you picking up games in the standings. I think Bloom needs to see what he has here. If the team falls flat, he'll need to deal. If they play well, maybe he rolls the dice and tries to go for it again.

 

If they play well MAYBE he rolls the dice, and goes for it again? Shouldn’t even be a question to me if they play well.

[mvp 78]

If they play well MAYBE he rolls the dice, and goes for it again? Shouldn’t even be a question to me if they play well.

 

It's always on the table for them.

 

I can see them not re-signing Xander, trading for some guys at the deadline, getting a Wild Card slot and not doing a whole lot in the playoffs.

 

The question is: would that be considered a success?

 

I'd rather they deal off Xander if they can't or won't re-sign him and any other expiring contracts. I think losing in the WC or first round isn't a particularly successful year if you aren't securing the long term success of your team.

 

Maybe ownership considers that a success? Maybe some fans consider that a success?

[Bellhorn04]

It's always on the table for them.

 

I can see them not re-signing Xander, trading for some guys at the deadline, getting a Wild Card slot and not doing a whole lot in the playoffs.

 

The question is: would that be considered a success?

 

I'd rather they deal off Xander if they can't or won't re-sign him and any other expiring contracts. I think losing in the WC or first round isn't a particularly successful year if you aren't securing the long term success of your team.

 

Maybe ownership considers that a success? Maybe some fans consider that a success?

 

Who knows what's considered a success, other than winning it all.

 

Some people don't consider 2021 a success.

[iortiz]

Wonder what kind of pieces we would get for Xander and/or Devers.

[Old Red]

Wonder what kind of pieces we would get for Xander and/or Devers.

 

I say trade everyone off, and just move Worcester up to the big leagues. I’ve never seen so much intrigue about what suspects/prospects can do instead of having proven major league players stay on the team. Not much baseball sense to me, and the attitude if the Sox can’t win it all what’s the sense in trying. So just get rid of everyone. Only on here is this stuff talked about to this degree just like talking fire sales before the season even started. Go watch Worcester, or Portland if you want to see the suspects so bad.

[Bellhorn04]

I say trade everyone off, and just move Worcester up to the big leagues. I’ve never seen so much intrigue about what suspects/prospects can do instead of having proven major league players stay on the team. Not much baseball sense to me, and the attitude if the Sox can’t win it all what’s the sense in trying. So just get rid of everyone. Only on here is this stuff talked about to this degree just like talking fire sales before the season even started. Go watch Worcester, or Portland if you want to see the suspects so bad.

 

Another lecture!

[Old Red]

Another lecture!

 

Another summery that is more truth than fiction.

[mvp 78]

I say trade everyone off, and just move Worcester up to the big leagues. I’ve never seen so much intrigue about what suspects/prospects can do instead of having proven major league players stay on the team. Not much baseball sense to me, and the attitude if the Sox can’t win it all what’s the sense in trying. So just get rid of everyone. Only on here is this stuff talked about to this degree just like talking fire sales before the season even started. Go watch Worcester, or Portland if you want to see the suspects so bad.

 

Welcome to baseball in the year of our lord 2022. People now treat prospects as if they have actual value and you shouldn't just dump them mindlessly for a middle reliever.

 

This is a baseball forum. We are going to talk about everything. If we just talked about the players on the major league team it would be f***ing boring. How long could we talk about Christian Arroyo for? It's nice to dream on some younger players. Good organizations are able to integrate young players from their farm system onto their major league team. It's one of the main reasons the Yankees are in 1st place this season.

[Bellhorn04]

Another summery that is more truth than fiction.

 

Right, you're the guy who has to explain the real facts to us ignorant people on Talksox.

[moonslav59]

Welcome to baseball in the year of our lord 2022. People now treat prospects as if they have actual value and you shouldn't just dump them mindlessly for a middle reliever.

 

This is a baseball forum. We are going to talk about everything. If we just talked about the players on the major league team it would be f***ing boring. How long could we talk about Christian Arroyo for? It's nice to dream on some younger players. Good organizations are able to integrate young players from their farm system onto their major league team. It's one of the main reasons the Yankees are in 1st place this season.

 

All fact and little opinion.

[moonslav59]

Right, you're the guy who has to explain the real facts to us ignorant people on Talksox.

 

The guy who still owes us the link that shows “all reviews of the Betts trade said Bloom failed.”

[cp176]

Without Bogaerts, Martinez, and Devers, where would this team be?

[moonslav59]

Without Bogaerts, Martinez, and Devers, where would this team be?

 

With nothing in return or not replacing their contracts on the budget, likely last place. IMO

[Old Red]

Welcome to baseball in the year of our lord 2022. People now treat prospects as if they have actual value and you shouldn't just dump them mindlessly for a middle reliever.

 

This is a baseball forum. We are going to talk about everything. If we just talked about the players on the major league team it would be f***ing boring. How long could we talk about Christian Arroyo for? It's nice to dream on some younger players. Good organizations are able to integrate young players from their farm system onto their major league team. It's one of the main reasons the Yankees are in 1st place this season.

 

Right this is a baseball forum, and I voice my opinion just like everyone else, and there is nothing wrong with dreaming about prospects. I check the minor league box scores of the Sox teams Every night, so I do follow what is going on, but untill they put on a Red Sox uniform, and produce they don’t count for me than anything, but a minor leaguer. The Red Sox have already traded off one future HOF, and the prospect of possibility of trading off 2 more, and replacing them with prospects just doesn’t do it for me.

[moonslav59]

Right this is a baseball forum, and I voice my opinion just like everyone else, and there is nothing wrong with dreaming about prospects. I check the minor league box scores of the Sox teams Every night, so I do follow what is going on, but untill they put on a Red Sox uniform, and produce they don’t count for me than anything, but a minor leaguer. The Red Sox have already traded off one future HOF, and the prospect of possibility of trading off 2 more, and replacing them with prospects just doesn’t do it for me.

 

Better than the idea of getting just a comp pick, but yes, it’s not something anyone loves.

 

BTW, Verdugo and his 5 years of team control was not a prospect. Downs and Wong were.

[Old Red]

With nothing in return or not replacing their contracts on the budget, likely last place. IMO

 

That’s why you keep a known proven quality player instead of trying to replace them with some prospect that you have no idea what you will get.

[Old Red]

Better than the idea of getting just a comp pick, but yes, it’s not something anyone loves.

 

BTW, Verdugo and his 5 years of team control was not a prospect. Downs and Wong were.

 

5 years of Dugy as you say does not replace a future HOF. I wasn’t to upset that Mookie got traded, because I thought all along he wanted out of Boston anyway, but after I heard Mookie talk just recently on the Rob Bradford podcast I’m not so sure. Either way if Dugy plays 10 years in Boston he will never replace Mookie, and Bogey, and Raffy would be hard to replace as well, and spare me the Story Land as an option for Bogey.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Old Red

[dgalehouse]

Finally after today the Red Sox will get to play against a winning team. What’s it been like 8 series in a row against losing teams with 4 of them against last place teams since they played against a winning team. It’s been nice to rack up all these wins, but for me it’s been really hard to get into these games against such bad competition especially for so long a time. I know in early July the Sox play 14 games straight against NY, and Tampa with a 3 game with Toronto at the end. So come the end of July we’ll see if this is a real playoff team, or one where some will get their wish, and see a big fire sale. Just the prospect of getting more prospects have had some salivating for some time now.

Old Red , I am looking forward to seeing the Sox go up against better competition . As I had predicted , they have built up some winning momentum and confidence by beating up on the dregs of MLB. I think they are ready for the test that lies ahead. By the way , Oakland used to be a very good team with some great players . And they were fun to watch. That changed when the fake , phony , fraud, Billy Beane rode into town and got filthy rich promoting the cockamamie Moneyball nonsense. Never won a championship under him . Now , they are just another patsy .

[moonslav59]

5 years of Dugy as you say does not replace a future HOF. I wasn’t to upset that Mookie got traded, because I thought all along he wanted out of Boston anyway, but after I heard Mookie talk just recently on the Rob Bradford podcast I’m not so sure. Either way if Dugy plays 10 years in Boston he will never replace Mookie, and Bogey, and Raffy would be hard to replace as well, and spare me the Story Land as an option for Bogey.

 

I never said Dugy did.

 

I was responding to the point about getting prospects. Ant trade of a star may or may not be just prospects. Sometimes, as in the Lester and Lackey trades, we got ML level players in return.

 

Also, We did not get Dugy, Downs and Wong for 5-10 years of Betts. We got them for a 60 game season of Betts, so I'm not sure the deal was as lops-ded as you make it sound by saying "Dugy for a future HOF'er." While the statement is true, you ignore the context that it was maybe 660 games of Verdugo for just 60 games of Betts. Then, there is the dumping half of Price's 3 years of contract remaining. That added to the value of the deal, from our side, much more than shedding Bett's 2020 contract, which did us no good at all, really.

 

We got one year of Jason Bay for a few months of HOF- worthy Manny.

 

 

 

 

 

[moonslav59]

Old Red , I am looking forward to seeing the Sox go up against better competition . As I had predicted , they have built up some winning momentum and confidence by beating up on the dregs of MLB. I think they are ready for the test that lies ahead. By the way , Oakland used to be a very good team with some great players . And they were fun to watch. That changed when the fake , phony , fraud, Billy Beane rode into town and got filthy rich promoting the cockamamie Moneyball nonsense. Never won a championship under him . Now , they are just another patsy .

 

Under the strict spending limits imposed on Beane, the A's must be pretty close to being a top 3 team in wins per dollar spent in MLB over Beane's tenure as GM.

 

How is he a fake or phony anymore than other GMs who often promise the world, knowing full well, they can't deliver?

 

Over his term, I'd much rather have been an A's fan than a Pirates and many other team's fan.

 

[Old Red]

I never said Dugy did.

 

I was responding to the point about getting prospects. Ant trade of a star may or may not be just prospects. Sometimes, as in the Lester and Lackey trades, we got ML level players in return.

 

Also, We did not get Dugy, Downs and Wong for 5-10 years of Betts. We got them for a 60 game season of Betts, so I'm not sure the deal was as lops-ded as you make it sound by saying "Dugy for a future HOF'er." While the statement is true, you ignore the context that it was maybe 660 games of Verdugo for just 60 games of Betts. Then, there is the dumping half of Price's 3 years of contract remaining. That added to the value of the deal, from our side, much more than shedding Bett's 2020 contract, which did us no good at all, really.

 

We got one year of Jason Bay for a few months of HOF- worthy Manny.

 

 

 

 

 

Manny was not in his prime, and 660 games of Dugy will still not replace Mookie. You look at it one way, and I look at it another way. You’ve been trying for a long time now with the same old argument, to get me to change my mind, and it just ain’t going to happen.

[Old Red]

Old Red , I am looking forward to seeing the Sox go up against better competition . As I had predicted , they have built up some winning momentum and confidence by beating up on the dregs of MLB. I think they are ready for the test that lies ahead. By the way , Oakland used to be a very good team with some great players . And they were fun to watch. That changed when the fake , phony , fraud, Billy Beane rode into town and got filthy rich promoting the cockamamie Moneyball nonsense. Never won a championship under him . Now , they are just another patsy .

 

Well said, and agree 100%.

[Old Red]

Under the strict spending limits imposed on Beane, the A's must be pretty close to being a top 3 team in wins per dollar spent in MLB over Beane's tenure as GM.

 

How is he a fake or phony anymore than other GMs who often promise the world, knowing full well, they can't deliver?

 

Over his term, I'd much rather have been an A's fan than a Pirates and many other team's fan.

 

 

What about now after getting rid of Olsen, and Chapman among others?

[dgalehouse]

Under the strict spending limits imposed on Beane, the A's must be pretty close to being a top 3 team in wins per dollar spent in MLB over Beane's tenure as GM.

 

How is he a fake or phony anymore than other GMs who often promise the world, knowing full well, they can't deliver?

 

Over his term, I'd much rather have been an A's fan than a Pirates and many other team's fan.

 

 

" Wins per dollar " WPD. What' s his WPD? Where did you find that one? I take it all back. Beane is terrific. He is top three in WPD.

[dgalehouse]

Well said, and agree 100%.

 

Thank you.

[mvp 78]

Over his term, I'd much rather have been an A's fan than a Pirates and many other team's fan.

 

26 years and only 1 trip to the ALCS and the were swept.

 

So I guess A's fans are better off than:

SEA

MIN

BAL

TOR

MIL (maybe? they have gotten much closer to WS)

PIT

CIN

 

It's not really saying much. Also, they have a stadium that was in need of a teardown 20 years ago and an owner that has no interest in re-signing any of their players. There is never any hope for the future for that ballclub. It's just an endless shell game and playing footsie with other cities to see where the next stadium will be built. Being an A's fan must be like living in purgatory.

[mvp 78]

" Wins per dollar " WPD. What' s his WPD? Where did you find that one? I take it all back. Beane is terrific. He is top three in WPD.

 

If Beane comes to Boston instead of staying in OAK after 2002, do the Red Sox still win 4 WS or 20? I think that's the question we need to find out. Also, can there be an alternate universe where Moneyball happens at Fenway and the dreadful Fever Pitch happens in East Bay with some crust punks?

[moonslav59]

26 years and only 1 trip to the ALCS and the were swept.

 

So I guess A's fans are better off than:

SEA

MIN

BAL

TOR

MIL (maybe? they have gotten much closer to WS)

PIT

CIN

 

It's not really saying much. Also, they have a stadium that was in need of a teardown 20 years ago and an owner that has no interest in re-signing any of their players. There is never any hope for the future for that ballclub. It's just an endless shell game and playing footsie with other cities to see where the next stadium will be built. Being an A's fan must be like living in purgatory.

 

If you are using just advancing into the second round of any playoffs as your rubric, then yea, maybe.

 

The only measure I mentioned was wins per dollar spent and who I'd rather be a fan of. (I didn't imply my measure was the only one or the best one.)