5/22 vs M’s

[Old Red]

We've lost our share of games like this, so it still feels good.

 

To bad for Evol though.

[harmony]

Sorry harmony. Not sorry we swept, but you're a good baseball fan and deserve some reward for it.

Thanks for the kind thought ... I had a great week outside of baseball.

[d-money]

Hope we can keep winning while the Yankees lose some games. Anything is possible but at least they’re playing some good baseball. If they can just get back to 500.

[Thunder]

Thanks for the kind thought ... I had a great week outside of baseball.

 

The game outside of baseball is the vastly more important game anyway. Glad to hear it!

[moonslav59]

This was our first extra inning win, right?

 

I think we were 0-5 or 0-6 before today.

[Oscars]

And another HR for Story.

Fenway park is a great home for his swing

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Tim Anderson gets last laugh against the Yankems and their shitey fans.

Josh Donaldson, just the latest A-hole signed by the Yankems.

Edited May 23, 2022 by SPLENDIDSPLINTER

[d-money]

I can start believing again if the Yankees start sliding but the Sox have to get on a big winning streak to get back in this . Still not 500.

[d-money]

Yankees hosting the orioles next. Seems like they’re always playing the lousy birds.

[Maxbialystock]

A good win, but it shouldn’t have been that difficult. If the Sox only had a closer.

 

Your favorite complaint, with which I heartily disagree. Oh, I'm not against a good closer and in fact thought we had one last year in Barnes and possibly this year in Robles.

 

But to me this team this year has had to rely heavily on a lot of innings pitched by the bullpen, long before the closer gets a chance to seal the deal. Eovaldi has started 9 games and averaged 5.1 innings; Pivetta 8 starts, 5.1 innings per; Wacha 6 starts, 5 innings per; Hill 7 starts, 4.1 innings per. And you completely ignore how important those middle inning relievers have been to keep the Sox in a game before the closer can close.

 

And you also ignore the harsher reality that the lineup needs to score runs. In these five straight wins the Sox have scored 5, 12, 7, 6, and 8 runs. In the five game losing streak earlier in May the Sox scored 5, 0, 2, 1, and 2 runs.

[Bellhorn04]

Tim Anderson gets last laugh against the Yankems and their shitey fans.

Josh Donaldson, just the latest A-hole signed by the Yankems.

 

Which prompted an article by Joel Sherman in today's NY Post titled:

 

Josh Donaldson's latest run-in raises difficult questions about just what kind of teammate he is

[Maxbialystock]

My roommate was mad as soon as he saw Vaz going home. I know hindsight is 20/20 but literally mid play he was yelling “XANDER IS ON DECK, HOLD HIM”

 

Your roommate was not alone. This year Vazquez is determined to establish himself as the worst baserunner in Sox history, but in this case we need to know what the 3b coach was signaling.

[Maxbialystock]

My roommate was mad as soon as he saw Vaz going home. I know hindsight is 20/20 but literally mid play he was yelling “XANDER IS ON DECK, HOLD HIM”

 

Your roommate was not alone. This year Vazquez is determined to establish himself as the worst baserunner in Sox history, but in this case we need to know what the 3b coach was signaling.

 

I rewatched the play several times and am willing to give Vazquez a pass. It was a great throw from right field and barely beat Vazquez. Plus it's possible the catcher dropped the ball, which the ump couldn't see, nor could the replay guys in NYC.

[Old Red]

Your favorite complaint, with which I heartily disagree. Oh, I'm not against a good closer and in fact thought we had one last year in Barnes and possibly this year in Robles.

 

But to me this team this year has had to rely heavily on a lot of innings pitched by the bullpen, long before the closer gets a chance to seal the deal. Eovaldi has started 9 games and averaged 5.1 innings; Pivetta 8 starts, 5.1 innings per; Wacha 6 starts, 5 innings per; Hill 7 starts, 4.1 innings per. And you completely ignore how important those middle inning relievers have been to keep the Sox in a game before the closer can close.

 

And you also ignore the harsher reality that the lineup needs to score runs. In these five straight wins the Sox have scored 5, 12, 7, 6, and 8 runs. In the five game losing streak earlier in May the Sox scored 5, 0, 2, 1, and 2 runs.

 

Your right for the most part except that I ignore the reality that the team needs to score more runs, but the simple fact is they didn’t, and what you keep ignoring is all the one run leads that has been blown, and yesterday was the latest example in the 8th, and 9th inning, because they didn’t have a closer, and you are not getting those games back, and are in the loss column for good. All your facts are right, but it doesn’t change the blown saves, which means a lead in the 8th, and 9th inning. Woulda, shoulda, and coulda got have got you more runs, but woulda, shoulda, and coulda didn’t. Woulda, shoulda, and coulda should have gotten you a closer, but that still hasn’t happened, and Cora, and Bloom continue to go without one, and I predict more losses on the way, because of it.

[Maxbialystock]

Your right for the most part except that I ignore the reality that the team needs to score more runs, but the simple fact is they didn’t, and what you keep ignoring is all the one run leads that has been blown, and yesterday was the latest example in the 8th, and 9th inning, because they didn’t have a closer, and you are not getting those games back, and are in the loss column for good. All your facts are right, but it doesn’t change the blown saves, which means a lead in the 8th, and 9th inning. Woulda, shoulda, and coulda got have got you more runs, but woulda, shoulda, and coulda didn’t. Woulda, shoulda, and coulda should have gotten you a closer, but that still hasn’t happened, and Cora, and Bloom continue to go without one, and I predict more losses on the way, because of it.

 

I do agree that good pitching staffs, starters and relievers, can win games when the hitting isn't there. But, while I think this year's Sox staff has slightly exceeded my expectations--given the absence of Sale, et al--it is hardly a great pitching staff. The team ERA is 3.80 and ranked 9th in the AL.

 

Relatedly, guess which AL team has the lowest ERA? Houston--2.85. They also have 10 saves to the Sox 8 saves, which to me offers the argument that a great reliever is not the be-all-and-end-all of a successful pitching staff.

 

Indeed, as I argued up above, coming into this season Bloom and Cora actually had two bonafide, successful closers in Barnes and Robles. Of course, last year we saw Barnes crap out in the same season in which he seemed to have become the perfect closer with that deadly knuckle curve and upper 90's fastball. This year he seems to have neither. Robles had 23 saves (ERA 2.48) 3 years ago for the Angels and 10 last year for the Angels and 4 for the Sox. This year he has 2 saves and 3 blown saves.

 

So clearly neither Barnes, ERA 6.59, nor Robles (ERA 2.65) is going to be a good closer.

 

You have consequently argued that Whitlock needs to take that role, which, however, would reduce his innings and compel Bloom and Cora to make someone else a starter even though Whitlock has the repertoire to be an effective starter. And, in case you're interested, so far he has accumulated 3 saves and 4 blown saves in his 1+ seasons with the Sox.

 

While we can continue to agree that the closer situation on the Sox stinks, we will not agree that the reason for this is mismanagement by Cora.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Maxbialystock

[Old Red]

I do agree that good pitching staffs, starters and relievers, can win games when the hitting isn't there. But, while I think this year's Sox staff has slightly exceeded my expectations--given the absence of Sale, et al--it is hardly a great pitching staff. The team ERA is 3.80 and ranked 9th in the AL.

 

Relatedly, guess which AL team has the lowest ERA? Houston--2.85. They also have 10 saves to the Sox 8 saves, which to me offers the argument that a great reliever is not the be-all-and-end-all of a successful pitching staff.

 

Indeed, as I argued up above, coming into this season Bloom and Cora actually had two bonafide, successful closers in Barnes and Robles. Of course, last year we saw Barnes crap out in the same season in which he seemed to have become the perfect closer with that deadly knuckle curve and upper 90's fastball. This year he seems to have neither. Robles had 23 saves (ERA 2.48) 3 years ago for the Angels and 10 last year for the Angels and 4 for the Sox. This year he has 2 saves and 3 blown saves.

 

So clearly neither Barnes, ERA 6.59, nor Robles (ERA 2.65) is going to be a good closer.

 

You have consequently argued that Whitlock needs to take that role, which, however, would reduce his innings and compel Bloom and Cora to make someone else a starter even though Whitlock has the repertoire to be an effective starter. And, in case you're interested, so far he has accumulated 3 saves and 4 blown saves in his 1+ seasons with the Sox.

 

While we can continue to agree that the closer situation on the Sox stinks, we will not agree that the reason for this is mismanagement by Cora.

 

Which team leads the league in blown saves? How many save opportunities has Whitlock had in the 9th inning? Whitlocks blown save this year was pitching in long relief trying to go 4 innings. Once again the blown saves the Red Sox have accumulated this year you cannot get a do over, but if you could, and Whitlock had been the closer I have no doubt the Red Sox would have a better record right now, and that is on Cora.

[moonslav59]

Which team leads the league in blown saves? How many save opportunities has Whitlock had in the 9th inning? Whitlocks blown save this year was pitching in long relief trying to go 4 innings. Once again the blown saves the Red Sox have accumulated this year you cannot get a do over, but if you could, and Whitlock had been the closer I have no doubt the Red Sox would have a better record right now, and that is on Cora.

 

You have to count the losses we'd have when Whitlock pitched well in long relief or as a starter. Subtract those from the projected wins we'd have with him closing, assuming he did very well in the closer role.

 

I'm not doubting we'd have been better, but we can never know. It's a trade off.

 

The fact that we lost many games where Whitlock pitched well in long relief or as a starter does not take away from the fact that he helped put us in a position to win, and a weak closer lost those games.

 

Flip the roles, and maybe Whitlock never gets that many save opportunities, because the new long man is coughing up dingers, left and right, and we're down 6 by the 8th and 9th innings.

 

We are 6-4 in games Whitlock has pitchers, and in all but 1 of those wins, he pitched very well. (That was his last start.)

 

In the 4 losses he pitched in, he blew one save and started 3 games, where he allowed 3 ERs, total! It's hard for me to look at those 3 starts and say that because he we didn't win, he was misused.

 

We've had this running debate for a while, but IMO, Houck's profile fits the closer role better than starter/long relief, and Whitlock's fits the starter/long relief role better than Houck. Better than closer? Who really knows? He's dove very well as a starter and long man. Yes, this year, his numbers in relief are much better than as a starter, but most of those numbers were not as a traditional closer (1 IP, maybe a little more every now and then).

[moonslav59]

If you look at 2021, month by month, it seems that Whitlock did about the same as a long man or as a short man, but his worst 2 months were the ones he averages the shortest IP per game. His best 3 were his longest 3.

 

IP/per appearance and ERA

 

2.1 0.00 April

1.6 4.09 May

1.6 0.66 June

2.5 0.75 July

1.6 2.77 August

1.3 4.35 Sept

 

2021 games where he came in the 8th or 9th:

IP H ER BB K

2.0 1 0 0 2

2.0 2 0 1 3

1.0 1 0 0 0 (8th)

1.0 0 0 0 3 (8th in a loss)

2.2 1 1 0 4 (9th to 11th- let up a run but got win)

1.0 1 0 0 2 (9th not a save situation)

1.1 3 3 0 2 (9-10th blown save vs TBR)

2.0 1 0 0 1

0.2 1 1 1 0 (Got the loss- came in 1-1 game)

 

He doesn't have a long history as a 1 inning closer.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by moonslav59

[Old Red]

You have to count the losses we'd have when Whitlock pitched well in long relief or as a starter. Subtract those from the projected wins we'd have with him closing, assuming he did very well in the closer role.

 

I'm not doubting we'd have been better, but we can never know. It's a trade off.

 

The fact that we lost many games where Whitlock pitched well in long relief or as a starter does not take away from the fact that he helped put us in a position to win, and a weak closer lost those games.

 

Flip the roles, and maybe Whitlock never gets that many save opportunities, because the new long man is coughing up dingers, left and right, and we're down 6 by the 8th and 9th innings.

 

We are 6-4 in games Whitlock has pitchers, and in all but 1 of those wins, he pitched very well. (That was his last start.)

 

In the 4 losses he pitched in, he blew one save and started 3 games, where he allowed 3 ERs, total! It's hard for me to look at those 3 starts and say that because he we didn't win, he was misused.

 

We've had this running debate for a while, but IMO, Houck's profile fits the closer role better than starter/long relief, and Whitlock's fits the starter/long relief role better than Houck. Better than closer? Who really knows? He's dove very well as a starter and long man. Yes, this year, his numbers in relief are much better than as a starter, but most of those numbers were not as a traditional closer (1 IP, maybe a little more every now and then).

 

It’s hard to tell what would have happened if someone else had started those games Whitlock started so far. I wouldn’t be against Whitlock starting if the Red Sox had a good closer, but the fact is they don’t, and my opinion is that Whitlock is more valuable there then as a starter. Leading the league in blown saves is a fact, and I just think the blown saves will keep on adding up until a closer is found.

[Old Red]

If you look at 2021, month by month, it seems that Whitlock did about the same as a long man or as a short man, but his worst 2 months were the ones he averages the shortest IP per game. His best 3 were his longest 3.

 

IP/per appearance and ERA

 

2.1 0.00 April

1.6 4.09 May

1.6 0.66 June

2.5 0.75 July

1.6 2.77 August

1.3 4.35 Sept

 

 

How many times has Whitlock just pitched in the 9th inning in a save opportunity?

[moonslav59]

How many times has Whitlock just pitched in the 9th inning in a save opportunity?

 

Exactly. How are you so sure that role is for him? I see two times, last year, and we lost both games with him allowing run(s) to score.

 

9/6/21 We're up 9-8, Whitlock comes in and allows a HR to the first batter. Later, in the 10th, he loses the games by allowing 2 singles.

 

9/12/21 We're tied 1-1, Whitlock comes in and allows a solo walk-off HR to Leury Garcia with 2 outs. (A crucial loss in a tight playoff race)

 

His short career has shown he does better in long relief than short.

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by moonslav59

[Old Red]

Exactly. How are you so sure that role is for him? I see two times, last year, and we lost both games with him allowing run(s) to score.

 

9/6/21 We're up 9-8, Whitlock comes in and allows a HR to the first batter. Later, in the 10th, he loses the games by allowing 2 singles.

 

9/12/21 We're tied 1-1, Whitlock comes in and allows a solo walk-off HR to Leury Garcia with 2 outs. (A crucial loss in a tight playoff race)

 

His short career has shown he does better in long relief than short.

 

 

I’m not sure that he could be a good closer just like I’m not sure he could be a good starter, but still the fact remains the Red Sox lead the league in blown saves, and that is the result of not having a reliable closer. I all for giving Houck at shot at closing, but Cora dose not seem to want to do that either.

[moonslav59]

I’m not sure that he could be a good closer just like I’m not sure he could be a good starter, but still the fact remains the Red Sox lead the league in blown saves, and that is the result of not having a reliable closer. I all for giving Houck at shot at closing, but Cora dose not seem to want to do that either.

 

I'm not sure why he has waited this long, but there seems to be no indication he's even thinking about naming either the closer.

 

I thought when Wacha returned, he had a good chance, and he can start letting Wacha and Hill go longer in games, so no need for that piggy-back crap.

 

To me, Whitlock is a natural for long relief. and that translates better to starter than Closer, but he could very well be a great closer, if given the chance. I wouldn't mess with him.

 

Houck seems like a more natural closer, and has done very well in his first inning or two over the vast majority of his games pitched. He has a .311 OPS Against in his first 25 pitches of a game.

 

2022

1st PA as starter .584/ as RP'er .568

2nd PA as starter .774/ as RP'er .606

 

Career

1st PA SP .504/ 1st PA as RP'er .554

2nd PA SP .647/ 2nd PA as RP'er .503

3rd PA SP 1.017

 

.369 Pitches 1-25 (like a closer usually gets, especially with that OPSA)

.685 Pitches 26-50

.756 51-75

.767 76-100

 

Whitlock

.637 pitches 1-25 (not bad but double Houck's)

.487 pitches 26-50 (Yup, better as a longer man)

1.037 51-75 (but not too long)

1.267 76-100

 

As a RP'er: .627 first time through a line-up BUT .229 the second time through! WOW!

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Exactly. How are you so sure that role is for him? I see two times, last year, and we lost both games with him allowing run(s) to score.

 

9/6/21 We're up 9-8, Whitlock comes in and allows a HR to the first batter. Later, in the 10th, he loses the games by allowing 2 singles.

 

9/12/21 We're tied 1-1, Whitlock comes in and allows a solo walk-off HR to Leury Garcia with 2 outs. (A crucial loss in a tight playoff race)

 

His short career has shown he does better in long relief than short.

 

 

Everybody also forgets Whitlock blew the save in the pivotal Game 4 of the ALCS, giving up a leadoff homer to Altuve in the top of the 8th, after pitching a scoreless 7th. Was he slated to finish the game for a three-inning save? Maybe... but suddenly, Cora was compelled to use Eovaldi -- and then Perez -- in the disastrous 9th, and the Sox never sniffed another lead in the series.

[moonslav59]

Everybody also forgets Whitlock blew the save in the pivotal Game 4 of the ALCS, giving up a leadoff homer to Altuve in the top of the 8th, after pitching a scoreless 7th. Was he slated to finish the game for a three-inning save? Maybe... but suddenly, Cora was compelled to use Eovaldi -- and then Perez -- in the disastrous 9th, and the Sox never sniffed another lead in the series.

 

Yes, but Red's point is to let him go only 1 IP as a traditional closer.

[Old Red]

Yes, but Red's point is to let him go only 1 IP as a traditional closer.

 

4 outs at the most.

[Maxbialystock]

Which team leads the league in blown saves? How many save opportunities has Whitlock had in the 9th inning? Whitlocks blown save this year was pitching in long relief trying to go 4 innings. Once again the blown saves the Red Sox have accumulated this year you cannot get a do over, but if you could, and Whitlock had been the closer I have no doubt the Red Sox would have a better record right now, and that is on Cora.

 

You are attacking Cora based on the hypothetical notion that Whitlock would be an ace closer, and there is absolutely no evidence to support that assertion. There is evidence he is a good long reliever and potentially a good starter.