Fire Bloom .

[a700hitter]

If it was all about the results of a single season, Dombrowski would have been terminated early in his tenure with the Tigers, and Theo would have been canned early in his tenure with the Cubs.

 

Canning them would have been objective and results oriented, according to you.

Those guys had a long track record of success. Bloom has no such track record and the performance of the team has gone drastically backwards.

[dgalehouse]

We have been down this road too many times , but I will give it one more shot ; Dombrowski took over a Sox team that had finished last two years running. He was aggressive from the start and turned the team around immediately. Beat out the Yankees and won the AL East three straight years. Something that has not happened before or since. Today , as we wind up Bloom's third year , the Sox are back in last place , an embarrassing 21 games behind the Yankees. That is not my opinion or personal likes or dislikes. It is simply the truth.

[a700hitter]

We have been down this road too many times , but I will give it one more shot ; Dombrowski took over a Sox team that had finished last two years running. He was aggressive from the start and turned the team around immediately. Beat out the Yankees and won the AL East three straight years. Something that has not happened before or since. Today , as we wind up Bloom's third year , the Sox are back in last place , an embarrassing 21 games behind the Yankees. That is not my opinion or personal likes or dislikes. It is simply the truth.

But the plan is apparently for sustainability. Three consecutive Division crowns is not some people’s idea of sustainability.

[notin]

Agreed. The “But what about all the injuries?” excuse carries little weight with me.

 

Really?

 

I know people like to use the stick line “injuries are an excuse; every team has injuries.” But that’s the cop out. Not all injuries are equal, and losing Chris Sale for an entire year absolutely impacts a team much more than losing Harrison Bader for 3 weeks…

[Bellhorn04]

We have been down this road too many times , but I will give it one more shot ; Dombrowski took over a Sox team that had finished last two years running. He was aggressive from the start and turned the team around immediately. Beat out the Yankees and won the AL East three straight years. Something that has not happened before or since. Today , as we wind up Bloom's third year , the Sox are back in last place , an embarrassing 21 games behind the Yankees. That is not my opinion or personal likes or dislikes. It is simply the truth.

 

You dodged the point about Dombrowski's tenure with the Tigers.

[notin]

But the plan is apparently for sustainability. Three consecutive Division crowns is not some people’s idea of sustainability.

 

It clearly wasn’t sustainable.

 

The payroll was maxed out with aging free agent deals and DD only made things worse by extending Sale. The Price contract, like it or not, has devastating effects on the long term sustainability of this team…

[notin]

Those guys had a long track record of success. Bloom has no such track record and the performance of the team has gone drastically backwards.

 

Really?

 

Have you seen how Tampa has been dong since he got some authority with that organization in 2008? And with bitterly no budget?

[a700hitter]

Really?

 

I know people like to use the stick line “injuries are an excuse; every team has injuries.” But that’s the cop out. Not all injuries are equal, and losing Chris Sale for an entire year absolutely impacts a team much more than losing Harrison Bader for 3 weeks…

What about the Mets missing deGrom for more than half a season and Max Scherzer for about 1/3 of the season, or the Dodgers losing Bauer for a whole season and Buehler, and missing Kershaw for long periods too and now missing Gonsolin for 5 weeks.

[moonslav59]

But the plan is apparently for sustainability. Three consecutive Division crowns is not some people’s idea of sustainability.

 

Too many of you guys believed 2 falsehoods:

 

1. That a farm can be fully rebuilt in 1-3 years.

2. That a rebuilt farm will produce significant players in 1-3 years, and not even 1-3 years after the 1-3 years it took to rebuild. You expected a drafted prospect to contribute in a significant way in just 2-3 years.

 

Our farm has never done that. Our most impactful home grown stars took this long to even make the big club, and some took a year or two in the bigs to become the stars they are/were:

 

Devers (IFA in 2013- did not play in '13) debut in 2017 for 58 games (3+ years on farm/4+ years since signed)

Betts (drafted 2011): debut 2015 for 52 games (4+ years on farm)

Bogey (IFA in 2009-did not play in '09) debut in 2013 for 18 games (3+ yrs farm/4+ since signing)

Lester (drafted 2002) debut 2006 for 15 starts (4+ years)

 

Why expect results in 3 or less years, especially since the 2020 draft was just 4 rounds and we've seen HS players drafted...

 

first 2 in 2020

first and fourth in 2021

first 3 in 2022

 

 

[dgalehouse]

What we have here is folks who , for whatever reason , like Bloom and the way he does things. They are excusing , explaining and rationalizing his lack of success. That gets back to my original point.

[notin]

What about the Mets missing deGrom for more than half a season and Max Scherzer for about 1/3 of the season, or the Dodgers losing Bauer for a whole season and Buehler, and missing Kershaw for long periods too and now missing Gonsolin for 5 weeks.

 

So the highest payrolls in the league can withstand more injuries. The Sox can’t or at least won’t spend like the Mets and Dodgers to get that kind of depth.

 

In terms of payroll, we’re closer to being the White Sox than we are the Mets. And the White Sox are likely missing the postseason, and have also had a lot of injuries…

[notin]

What we have here is folks who , for whatever reason , like Bloom and the way he does things. They are excusing , explaining and rationalizing his lack of success. That gets back to my original point.

 

No.

 

What we have is people who pointed out years ago things could get tough for the Sox due to their elevated payroll and very weak farm, and where we are now is exactly where some of us said we be would be years ago. Ironically the same people who said “there’s no cliff” nor find them watching the team plummet over the edge and still say “But it’s not the cliff.”

 

This was all inevitable. Just because you didn’t like that reality doesn’t change that…

[Bellhorn04]

Those guys had a long track record of success. Bloom has no such track record and the performance of the team has gone drastically backwards.

 

That's true, but in the two situations I mentioned, they were rebuilding, and that's why they were given a lot of time.

[Bellhorn04]

The real question with Bloom is what Henry was expecting and what he was prepared for.

 

2022 especially shaped up as a tough year with all the contracts expiring. Bloom has been trying to build up the farm while plugging in gaps in the big team with short term contracts. Things are looking up in many ways.

 

But nobody expects Red Sox fans to be patient for long, so 2023 is huge for Bloom.

[moonslav59]

What we have here is folks who , for whatever reason , like Bloom and the way he does things. They are excusing , explaining and rationalizing his lack of success. That gets back to my original point.

 

The jury is still out on Bloom.

 

What sounds like Bloom love to you is just defending him against many (not all) baseless attacks.

 

Many of us like the fact that he is rebuilding the farm, but nobody knows if he has done a good job on that, or not, just yet, but he gets good marks for trying and at least improving the farm, on paper. When that was likely his top priority and not the here and now, like with DD, ignoring that context is ignorin g reality. Saying we are just making excuses and are seeing Bloom as doing only good things is a strawman argument.

 

When you objectively look at the ML players Bloom has added ve the ones he inherited, do you see something we don't see?

 

Dollar for dollar, Bloom's players blow the inherited ones away, and they include Devers & Bogey, who were not DD acquired players.

 

Many of us expected a cliff. You refused to believe it was possible for any high spending team. Instead of realizing you were wrong, you cling to blaming the new management team- not the old.

 

It's your choice, and that's fine, but stop with the whole thing about your view being the only objective one. You choose your criteria and negate the actual results of what this management team has added to the team vs what they inherited. Doing that is also an objective way of evaluating results.

[moonslav59]

The real question with Bloom is what Henry was expecting and what he was prepared for.

 

2022 especially shaped up as a tough year with all the contracts expiring. Bloom has been trying to build up the farm while plugging in gaps in the big team with short term contracts. Things are looking up in many ways.

 

But nobody expects Red Sox fans to be patient for long, so 2023 is huge for Bloom.

 

I will add that we should have done better in 2022. It was a failure. Injuries and clubhouse discontent, perhaps attributed in part to uncertain contract issues were some reasons for the failure, but not all. Bloom and Cora share some of the blame. Not a single poster denies this.

 

Many posters deny the contextual aspects of the tasks Bloom was handed after 2019. They also deny that the 2019 was not team that looked promising, going forward, especially the financial aspect of the contracts handed to Bloom.

 

Not only was Bloom forced to trade the franchise player Betts and limit the return by including Price, he had to cut the budget even further than that in 2020. Add to that no Sale or ERod for all of 2020 makes for a untenable situation for any GM. Bloom wasn't even allowed to replace Betts & prices contract costs, in full, let alone not adding the savings of losing other contracts like Porcello, pearce and Holt. We cut about $80M from 2019:

$27M Betts

$21M Porcello

$16M of Price

$6M Pearce

$5M Nunez

$4M Holt

 

Bloom was given $40M before the 2020 season and about $40M prior to 2021.

 

(This doesn't even touch on the cost of Pedey, Sale, Nate, ERod (missing 2020) and JD, plus the continuing Price payments)

[a700hitter]

Really?

 

Have you seen how Tampa has been dong since he got some authority with that organization in 2008? And with bitterly no budget?

He was never in charge in Tampa, and they have done just fine without him.

[moonslav59]

The real question with Bloom is what Henry was expecting and what he was prepared for.

 

2022 especially shaped up as a tough year with all the contracts expiring. Bloom has been trying to build up the farm while plugging in gaps in the big team with short term contracts. Things are looking up in many ways.

 

But nobody expects Red Sox fans to be patient for long, so 2023 is huge for Bloom.

 

I will add that we should have done better in 2022. It was a failure. Injuries and clubhouse discontent, perhaps attributed in part to uncertain contract issues were some reasons for the failure, but not all. Bloom and Cora share some of the blame. Not a single poster denies this.

 

Many posters deny the contextual aspects of the tasks Bloom was handed after 2019. They also deny that the 2019 was not team that looked promising, going forward, especially the financial aspect of the contracts handed to Bloom.

 

Not only was Bloom forced to trade the franchise player Betts and limit the return by including Price, he had to cut the budget even further than that in 2020. Add to that no Sale or ERod for all of 2020 makes for a untenable situation for any GM. Bloom wasn't even allowed to replace Betts & prices contract costs, in full, let alone not adding the savings of losing other contracts like Porcello, pearce and Holt. We cut about $80M from 2019:

$27M Betts

$21M Porcello

$16M of Price

$6M Pearce

$5M Nunez

$4M Holt

 

Bloom was given $40M before the 2020 season and about $40M prior to 2021.

 

(This doesn't even touch on the cost of Pedey, Sale, Nate, ERod (missing 2020) and JD, plus the continuing Price payments)

[notin]

He was never in charge in Tampa, and they have done just fine without him.

 

Bloom was in charge in Boston in 2021 when the Sox made the ALCS. Does that count as success?

[moonslav59]

Bloom was in charge in Boston in 2021 when the Sox made the ALCS. Does that count as success?

 

Not for the instant gratification population, which abounds here and in Red Sox Nation.

[a700hitter]

Bloom was in charge in Boston in 2021 when the Sox made the ALCS. Does that count as success?

Sure it does, but a precipitous backslide is alarming to me. There have been no positive developments in the 2022 season for the 2023 MLB team.

[a700hitter]

Not for the instant gratification population, which abounds here and in Red Sox Nation.

The instant gratification group that waited until age 45 to see a championship

[moonslav59]

The instant gratification group that waited until age 45 to see a championship

 

And now, we are spoiled.

 

Do you disagree that society is moving more to or away from instant gratification for 45 years ago.

 

It may have started gaining steam in the 60's and 70's, but it has clearly taken hold, these days.

[moonslav59]

Sure it does, but a precipitous backslide is alarming to me. There have been no positive developments in the 2022 season for the 2023 MLB team.

 

Not Schreiber, Refsnyder, McGuire, Wong, Story vs what we had at 2B for 2020-2021?

 

Plus, Whitlock, Houck and Pivetta showed that 2021 was not a fluke.

 

While Crawford, Casas and Bello's numbers do not look great, right now, all look pretty promising for 2023 and beyond, to some of us.

[notin]

Sure it does, but a precipitous backslide is alarming to me. There have been no positive developments in the 2022 season for the 2023 MLB team.

 

Sure there are.

 

Bello, Crawford and Casas, for starters…

[oldtimer]

I think choosing just W-Ls records is a subjective choice.

 

"Results orientated" should include farm building and grading the results of each move made by Bloom and not by previous GMs. That is as "objective" as your choice of "rationalized" evaluation.

 

One ought to consider the moves not made as well. Sitting on ones hands while positions grossly underperform is also something to score a GM's effectiveness.

[a700hitter]

Not Schreiber, Refsnyder, McGuire, Wong, Story vs what we had at 2B for 2020-2021?

 

Plus, Whitlock, Houck and Pivetta showed that 2021 was not a fluke.

 

While Crawford, Casas and Bello's numbers do not look great, right now, all look pretty promising for 2023 and beyond, to some of us.

I like Cassas’s swing and approach. He is one of the bright spots. Refsnyder is a journeyman type. Crawford has not impressed me much. Whitlock took a step backward this year and ended up on the IL. Bello has a live arm, but is not MLB ready. He is a bright spot, but I am not looking for him to carry a major load in 23. Schreiber is a bullpen guy and a crapshoot for 23. Pivetta isn’t a new player for the Red Sox. I like Story, but not at the expense of Bogey.

[moonslav59]

Pivetta isn’t a new player for the Red Sox. I like Story, but not at the expense of Bogey.

 

You did not say New players. Pivetta did prove he was not a fluke and should be a decent 4/5 going forward.

 

Story improved 2B, immensely. He is not the reason Bogey might go. He will not be moved to SS in 2023. He was an addition to 2B.

 

We aren't talking about possi ble losses. We were talking about what looks promising from 2022's team, concerning their 2023 outloook.

 

Story: plus

Schreiber: plus

Refsnyder: plus

Whitlock, Houck and Pivetta proved 2022 was not a fluke. Their futures, this March were largely unknown.

 

Bello is ML ready. He just needs an adjustment period, and hopefully, some of that took place in this lost season- making 2023 look more promising than before.

 

Crawford looks more promising now, than in March.

 

Many do not, but you asked about who was promising or more promising.

[a700hitter]

You did not say New players. Pivetta did prove he was not a fluke and should be a decent 4/5 going forward.

 

Story improved 2B, immensely. He is not the reason Bogey might go. He will not be moved to SS in 2023. He was an addition to 2B.

 

We aren't talking about possi ble losses. We were talking about what looks promising from 2022's team, concerning their 2023 outloook.

 

Story: plus

Schreiber: plus

Refsnyder: plus

Whitlock, Houck and Pivetta proved 2022 was not a fluke. Their futures, this March were largely unknown.

 

Bello is ML ready. He just needs an adjustment period, and hopefully, some of that took place in this lost season- making 2023 look more promising than before.

 

Crawford looks more promising now, than in March.

 

Many do not, but you asked about who was promising or more promising.

Maybe you feel better about 23 than I do. Hopefully, Bloom makes some acquisitions that will make me more positive. Edited September 25, 2022 by a700hitter

[Old Red]

One ought to consider the moves not made as well. Sitting on ones hands while positions grossly underperform is also something to score a GM's effectiveness.

 

100% agree on this. This has been one of my major complaints about Bloom this year. It was pretty well known that another OF, and someone who could catch the ball at 1B early on, but Bloom did nothing for 2 months until the trade deadline in Aug to do something about it. Talk about little league play that was Franchy at 1B. I’ve heard excuses that you don’t make trades in May, and June, and I think that’s wrong especially when the Red Sox were desperate for help, and the bad D at 1B did cost them games. I don’t know what was out there, but I’m not the HOBO, and Bloom is, and he should have acted like it, and made a deal even if it would have taken someone of the 40 man roster, and no that wouldn’t have been classified as going all in. Bloom failed big time in this area.