Fire Bloom .

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

“Every franchise that has won a World Series” means every team except San Diego, Tampa, Milwaukee and Seattle. And all of them - including Tampa - have signed prime free agents at some point…

 

Bottom line: every franchise that actually won it all had a significant contribution from a free agent in at least one championship... and arguably would not have a ring without him.

 

(except the Reds, who refused to partake in free agency)

[moonslav59]

If Bogey, Raffy, and JD are all gone lots of offense will have to be made up somewhere, and somehow. 2022 numbers were not as good as previous years, but still it will have to be made up.

 

No doubt.

 

IMO, Judge equals Bogey and JD's 2022 numbers, by himself.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It's make or break time for Bloom & Co.

 

... unless Bloom is forced to trade Devers because it "makes sense" for the franchise... then he gets at least one more year for the trade return to deliver or at least show promise and progress in the system.

 

And imho, every move Bloom makes and especially doesn't make is partially his fault and Henry's -- because any madness has been by design, the very reason Chaim was hired in the first (and last) place.

 

If the moves mostly backfire or just suck, that's on the entire organization, which has been entrusted with this industry-trending business model.

[moonslav59]

... unless Bloom is forced to trade Devers because it "makes sense" for the franchise... then he gets at least one more year for the trade return to deliver or at least show promise and progress in the system.

 

And imho, every move Bloom makes and especially doesn't make is partially his fault and Henry's -- because any madness has been by design, the very reason Chaim was hired in the first (and last) place.

 

If the moves mostly backfire or just suck, that's on the entire organization, which has been entrusted with this industry-trending business model.

 

Well said, and really it comes down to seeing the context of what B loom was hired into and hired to do.\

 

The building up of the farm looks very good, to me, but of course, we won't really know about Bloom's positive or negative influence on the farm for a few more years, and those who are a bit more impatient may not want to take that into consideration when weighing all the good and bad moves that have been made. The fact is, many of the best players we traded away involved taking back some level of prospects. Of the trades made, we have yet to see much success with the prospects, even though many were ML or near ML ready when acquired, but the jury is still out on most of them.

 

Downs & Wong (with Dugo) for Betts

Seabold (with Pivetta) for Workman & Hembree

Jacob Wallace for Pillar

German (with Ottavino) for basically nothing

Winckowski and 3 lower level prospects (with Cordero) for Beni

Binelas & Hamilton (with JBJ) for Renfroe

Ferguson & Rosier (with Hosmer) for Groome

E Valdez & W Abreu for Vaz

 

That's quite a few vets traded away to help improve the farm and longer term 40 man roster depth.

 

Some of these moves were made with the budget in mind, not just farm and depth building, and the budget is a major aspect of determining how well or poorly Bloom has done, up to now. The budget was extremely slashed year one, and it only got close to the 2019 level with the Story signing in March of 2022.

 

To expect greatness in less than 3 years was setting oneself up for major disappointment.

 

If Bloom is allowed to bring the budget up to the tax line, this winter- with or without Devers (or Bogey), there should be enough money to construct a pretty competitive team, barring major injuries and/or minimal input from the 10-15 young players who have recently come up or will come up from the farm, this year.

 

Many of the incoming farm help is from the DD era, but we finally are seeing some light at the end of the pipeline.

 

I'm thinking this should be when Bloom is held to the fire, assuming factors beyond his control do not have a major impact on 2023.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Well said, and really it comes down to seeing the context of what B loom was hired into and hired to do.\

 

The building up of the farm looks very good, to me, but of course, we won't really know about Bloom's positive or negative influence on the farm for a few more years, and those who are a bit more impatient may not want to take that into consideration when weighing all the good and bad moves that have been made. The fact is, many of the best players we traded away involved taking back some level of prospects. Of the trades made, we have yet to see much success with the prospects, even though many were ML or near ML ready when acquired, but the jury is still out on most of them.

 

Downs & Wong (with Dugo) for Betts

Seabold (with Pivetta) for Workman & Hembree

Jacob Wallace for Pillar

German (with Ottavino) for basically nothing

Winckowski and 3 lower level prospects (with Cordero) for Beni

Binelas & Hamilton (with JBJ) for Renfroe

Ferguson & Rosier (with Hosmer) for Groome

E Valdez & W Abreu for Vaz

 

That's quite a few vets traded away to help improve the farm and longer term 40 man roster depth.

 

Some of these moves were made with the budget in mind, not just farm and depth building, and the budget is a major aspect of determining how well or poorly Bloom has done, up to now. The budget was extremely slashed year one, and it only got close to the 2019 level with the Story signing in March of 2022.

 

To expect greatness in less than 3 years was setting oneself up for major disappointment.

 

If Bloom is allowed to bring the budget up to the tax line, this winter- with or without Devers (or Bogey), there should be enough money to construct a pretty competitive team, barring major injuries and/or minimal input from the 10-15 young players who have recently come up or will come up from the farm, this year.

 

Many of the incoming farm help is from the DD era, but we finally are seeing some light at the end of the pipeline.

 

I'm thinking this should be when Bloom is held to the fire, assuming factors beyond his control do not have a major impact on 2023.

 

Nice job on the prospects who may contribute soon. Maybe the best bets will be high velo arms like German and Wallace. Disappointments -- or suspects -- on the mound so far show a lack of wipeout stuff (Wink, Seabold), or at the plate a lack of discipline (like Downs, even at Triple A).

 

This is why I expect Bello to be the real deal; he dominated peers or older guys than him at every level getting to the bigs.

 

Bloom's make or break -- at least with the Nation -- may come at the next trade deadline when his team is either contending or on the fringe of contending. If he can just secure legitimate help in weak areas, then the clubhouse, the press and fandom will get behind him...

[moonslav59]

Nice job on the prospects who may contribute soon. Maybe the best bets will be high velo arms like German and Wallace. Disappointments -- or suspects -- on the mound so far show a lack of wipeout stuff (Wink, Seabold), or at the plate a lack of discipline (like Downs, even at Triple A).

 

This is why I expect Bello to be the real deal; he dominated peers or older guys than him at every level getting to the bigs.

 

Bloom's make or break -- at least with the Nation -- may come at the next trade deadline when his team is either contending or on the fringe of contending. If he can just secure legitimate help in weak areas, then the clubhouse, the press and fandom will get behind him...

 

Yes, the make or break aspect of 2023 may include the deadline.

 

Here's a list of 20 names, but it could be more. Easily, 8-12 may do poorly or never get a 2023 look. 4-6 may fill a minor role. 3-5 may contribute in a meaningful way. Who know? Maybe 1-2 do very well. Two may be all we need, if Bloom does well on additions to the roster, this winter.

 

The Rule 5 protectees look to improve our 40 man roster, too.

 

Bello, Casas, Wong, Wink, Crawford, Kelly, German, Duran, Down

 

Rafaela, Mata, Walter, E Valdez, W Abreu

 

Murphy, R Hern, Bazardo, Polito, Wallace, Granberg

[S5Dewey]

*To expect greatness in less than 3 years was setting oneself up for major disappointment.*

 

I'm not expecting team greatness. I'm expecting respectability and I didn't see much of that in 2022.

 

As I see it the Red Sox problem isn't lack of income, it's lack of intelligent use of that income. I've never been one to (over?)react to a losing season by wanting the GM fired but if this team has another year of sub-85 wins I will be on the bandwagon to make a change. And in 2024 that number changes to sub-95 wins. IMO given the "resources" of the Red Sox those are not unreasonable goals.

[mvp 78]

*To expect greatness in less than 3 years was setting oneself up for major disappointment.*

 

I'm not expecting team greatness. I'm expecting respectability and I didn't see much of that in 2022.

 

As I see it the Red Sox problem isn't lack of income, it's lack of intelligent use of that income. I've never been one to (over?)react to a losing season by wanting the GM fired but if this team has another year of sub-85 wins I will be on the bandwagon to make a change. And in 2024 that number changes to sub-95 wins. IMO given the "resources" of the Red Sox those are not unreasonable goals.

 

Only 5 teams in all of baseball won 95 games or more in 2022. I'm not sure that's a reasonable goal for 2024. 90+?

 

I think another poor year in 2023 would have Bloom on the next train out of here. I'm not sure there are many people on here that believe he'll stick around if they aren't in the playoffs next season.

[moonslav59]

*To expect greatness in less than 3 years was setting oneself up for major disappointment.*

 

I'm not expecting team greatness. I'm expecting respectability and I didn't see much of that in 2022.

 

As I see it the Red Sox problem isn't lack of income, it's lack of intelligent use of that income. I've never been one to (over?)react to a losing season by wanting the GM fired but if this team has another year of sub-85 wins I will be on the bandwagon to make a change. And in 2024 that number changes to sub-95 wins. IMO given the "resources" of the Red Sox those are not unreasonable goals.

 

2022 was not "respectable," agreed, but with all the injuries and significant declines by many returning vets, it seemed like intelligent use of income would not have been enough. If one looks at how all the money and other resources, namely Renfroe, was used, last winter, it's hard for me to say the net value was negative.

 

Renfroe for JBJ and 2 prospects- very bad for 2022.

The Story signing was not good for 2022.

 

The Diekman signing looked bad, to start, but we got out from under the deal and acquired McGuire for him. (Net plus?)

 

The Wacha signing was a huge success for $7M.

Getting Refsnyder for min wage was extremely intelligent, financially and otherwise.

Schreiber was another "smart move."

The Strahm signing worked out very well ($3M.)

The Rich Hill signing went well, too for $5M.

 

Do you, or anyone else, really see Bloom's winter moves as a net negative?

 

In hindsight, one could take the money paid to Story and construct a much better FA signing package with his money and the 2022 season, only, but I can't see how one can view the entirety of Bloom's winter moves as being dumb or even below average.

 

The in-season moves were not really designed to give a big boost to 2022, but in hindsight, they worked out well for 2022 and improved our longer term outlook, on paper. No way, can I see a logical position saying the deadline moves look like a net negative.

 

Basically, it was this...

 

Vaz, Diekman, Groome & Northcut

 

for

 

McGuire, Pham, Hosmer, EValdez, W Aybar, M Ferguson & C Rosier

 

I'm curious to know, if you think Bloom's overall 2022 moves grade is C or worse.

[mvp 78]

Schreiber was a 2021 move.

 

February 18, 2021 Boston Red Sox claimed RHP John Schreiber off waivers from Detroit Tigers.

[moonslav59]

Schreiber was a 2021 move.

 

February 18, 2021 Boston Red Sox claimed RHP John Schreiber off waivers from Detroit Tigers.

 

True, and he did pitch one game for the Sox in September, 2021.

 

Even taking that move away, do you see the post 2021 season moves combined as a net plus or minus?

 

[mvp 78]

True, and he did pitch one game for the Sox in September, 2021.

 

Even taking that move away, do you see the post 2021 season moves combined as a net plus or minus?

 

 

The moves going into the season were a net negative. They relied on older, injury prone starters to fill out the rotation. Running out of payroll space to have a backup 1b or RHB OFer really cost them early on IMO. The team seemed lost in April, turned it around in May, but started to take on water once the injuries mounted.

 

The in season moves were just treading water for 2022, but overall they were a net positive for the future as they add prospects that could help going forward. I'm not sold on McGuire being good going forward as he's typically been just a backup. If he's the replacement for Plawecki then that's fine. If he's the fulltime replacement for Vaz, I don't know how well it will work out.

[MADSTORK]

2 Wins Away

 

Thanks John Tom Lebron

[S5Dewey]

Only 5 teams in all of baseball won 95 games or more in 2022. I'm not sure that's a reasonable goal for 2024. 90+?

 

 

Probably true. My original thought was 90 but upped it to 95 when I got greedy. Improvement is the big thing, the number is almost inconsequentional.

[moonslav59]

The moves going into the season were a net negative. They relied on older, injury prone starters to fill out the rotation. Running out of payroll space to have a backup 1b or RHB OFer really cost them early on IMO. The team seemed lost in April, turned it around in May, but started to take on water once the injuries mounted.

 

The in season moves were just treading water for 2022, but overall they were a net positive for the future as they add prospects that could help going forward. I'm not sold on McGuire being good going forward as he's typically been just a backup. If he's the replacement for Plawecki then that's fine. If he's the fulltime replacement for Vaz, I don't know how well it will work out.

 

Good points, but think about Vaz going forward as he ages. Keeping him might have meant a decline from 2022 to 2023, too.

 

And, he'd have cost much more.

[Bellhorn04]

2 Wins Away

 

Thanks John Tom Lebron

 

After this World Series, titles since John and Tom bought the team:

 

Boston 4

San Fran 3

St Louis 2

Philly or Houston 2

All others 1 or 0

[mvp 78]

Probably true. My original thought was 90 but upped it to 95 when I got greedy. Improvement is the big thing, the number is almost inconsequentional.

 

I get it. Now that the playoffs are expanded even further, the Sox have less of an excuse to miss them. I can give Bloom a pass for 2020, but 2022 was an embarrassment.

 

It will be interesting to see if he treats this offseason similar to how he treated 21 and 22 or if he goes a different route.

 

I think the future of the org looks bright as long as the prospects pan out, but there's a chance ownership doesn't have the patience to wait on them all to arrive and starts dealing them off for MLB parts. As long as they choose the right assets to deal, it can be a good strategy.

[S5Dewey]

2022 was not "respectable," agreed, but with all the injuries and significant declines by many returning vets, it seemed like intelligent use of income would not have been enough. If one looks at how all the money and other resources, namely Renfroe, was used, last winter, it's hard for me to say the net value was negative.

 

Renfroe for JBJ and 2 prospects- very bad for 2022.

The Story signing was not good for 2022.

 

The Diekman signing looked bad, to start, but we got out from under the deal and acquired McGuire for him. (Net plus?)

 

The Wacha signing was a huge success for $7M.

Getting Refsnyder for min wage was extremely intelligent, financially and otherwise.

Schreiber was another "smart move."

The Strahm signing worked out very well ($3M.)

The Rich Hill signing went well, too for $5M.

 

Do you, or anyone else, really see Bloom's winter moves as a net negative?

 

In hindsight, one could take the money paid to Story and construct a much better FA signing package with his money and the 2022 season, only, but I can't see how one can view the entirety of Bloom's winter moves as being dumb or even below average.

 

The in-season moves were not really designed to give a big boost to 2022, but in hindsight, they worked out well for 2022 and improved our longer term outlook, on paper. No way, can I see a logical position saying the deadline moves look like a net negative.

 

Basically, it was this...

 

Vaz, Diekman, Groome & Northcut

 

for

 

McGuire, Pham, Hosmer, EValdez, W Aybar, M Ferguson & C Rosier

 

I'm curious to know, if you think Bloom's overall 2022 moves grade is C or worse.

 

There was a lot of talk here about how DD was great at taking a team over the top but not so good at building a team. That's why Bloom was hired so I'm not interested in excuses. One of my personal favorite lines came from Bill Parcells, "All I know is what I see". Bloom needs to prove he can do what he's hired to do in 2023 and that's get the team to respectability and on an upward trend. Otherwise he needs to go.

[mvp 78]

Good points, but think about Vaz going forward as he ages. Keeping him might have meant a decline from 2022 to 2023, too.

 

And, he'd have cost much more.

 

I wonder if the Sox are happy with what they saw with Wong down the stretch last season? Are they ready to have him be a primary backup in 2023?

 

They have mentioned that they are looking to bring in another catcher. Maybe they end up finally moving Wong into a utility role?

[mvp 78]

After this World Series, titles since John and Tom bought the team:

 

Boston 4

San Fran 3

St Louis 2

Philly or Houston 2

All others 1 or 0

 

Lebron: 0

[moonslav59]

I wonder if the Sox are happy with what they saw with Wong down the stretch last season? Are they ready to have him be a primary backup in 2023?

 

They have mentioned that they are looking to bring in another catcher. Maybe they end up finally moving Wong into a utility role?

 

Tough call. I don't think they see RHern or Caleb Hamilton as a viable back-up either, and many view McGuire as just a back-up.

 

I don't think catcher is viewed as a higher need area, but if something pops up, they may act to improve there.

[moonslav59]

There was a lot of talk here about how DD was great at taking a team over the top but not so good at building a team. That's why Bloom was hired so I'm not interested in excuses. One of my personal favorite lines came from Bill Parcells, "All I know is what I see". Bloom needs to prove he can do what he's hired to do in 2023 and that's get the team to respectability and on an upward trend. Otherwise he needs to go.

 

I don't disagree, but I'd like your answer to my question.

[mvp 78]

Tough call. I don't think they see RHern or Caleb Hamilton as a viable back-up either, and many view McGuire as just a back-up.

 

I don't think catcher is viewed as a higher need area, but if something pops up, they may act to improve there.

 

I think Hamilton is a viable 3rd string catcher. He's a guy you use in a pinch or in case of injury for a week or two.

 

It's just interesting the Bloom called out the need to pursue catching when most people were thinking of other positions.

[moonslav59]

I think Hamilton is a viable 3rd string catcher. He's a guy you use in a pinch or in case of injury for a week or two.

 

It's just interesting the Bloom called out the need to pursue catching when most people were thinking of other positions.

 

He may look to upgrade Wong/Hamilton but not make a big splash addition.

 

I'm not convinced McGuire is "the guy," but I think he fits their profile for a defense first catcher. I'm not sold on his bat being able to sustain the D, and his short sample size here should not be viewed as what he can or will give us on O.

[mvp 78]

He may look to upgrade Wong/Hamilton but not make a big splash addition.

 

I'm not convinced McGuire is "the guy," but I think he fits their profile for a defense first catcher. I'm not sold on his bat being able to sustain the D, and his short sample size here should not be viewed as what he can or will give us on O.

 

This is what he said:

 

"I think both of these guys showed well," Bloom told reporters in reference to McGuire and Wong, as seen on NESN's broadcast Thursday. "Which is good for them, good for us. We didn't want to be in the position we were in, in the end, but we tried to make the most of that position in terms of giving them opportunities. Both for their growth and benefit and also for ours.

 

"I think they definitely raise the floor of what we have. Now that said, this is one of the areas that I fully expect we're going to explore additions. It's nice to know we have at least two guys that are familiar with how we do things, that showed a lot of good things but we owe it to ourselves and everybody who cares about this team to look to get better, and catcher is certainly not going to be an exception to that."

 

Maybe he does just get a backup? Who knows?

[moonslav59]

This is what he said:

 

"I think both of these guys showed well," Bloom told reporters in reference to McGuire and Wong, as seen on NESN's broadcast Thursday. "Which is good for them, good for us. We didn't want to be in the position we were in, in the end, but we tried to make the most of that position in terms of giving them opportunities. Both for their growth and benefit and also for ours.

 

"I think they definitely raise the floor of what we have. Now that said, this is one of the areas that I fully expect we're going to explore additions. It's nice to know we have at least two guys that are familiar with how we do things, that showed a lot of good things but we owe it to ourselves and everybody who cares about this team to look to get better, and catcher is certainly not going to be an exception to that."

 

Maybe he does just get a backup? Who knows?

 

Sounds like they will look for an upgrade, but maybe would be okay if they can't find a deal worth completing.

 

Not that it matters, but I feel like catcher is pretty far down on the priority list. (It is on my list, though.)

[S5Dewey]

I don't disagree, but I'd like your answer to my question.

 

Ok...

McGuire is a .225 hitting backup catcher.

 

Acquiring Pham was made necessary by signing JBJ and not signing Schwarber - and those are both on Bloom.

 

Hosmer is probably the pick of the litter in a litter of ugly pups. He filled a spot they were needing this year but there are plenty of better 1B around if the Sox want to upgrade there. Like maybe Casas..only cheaper?

 

Willy Abar? A 40 year old infielder? This was supposed to be an upgrade??

 

Ferguson and Rosier are both prospects as is Groome. This is a sideways move and for a struggling team "sideways" doesn't get the job done.

Did I leave anybody out?

 

Of course we now are lacking a first string catcher who was pretty good while he was here but is maligned now that he's gone. He's not the second coming of Johnny Bench but the last I checked having a pretty good catcher is pretty darn important. Doubt it? Ask the pitchers.

 

So... to answer your question of "C or worse?"... Maybe a C since I'm in a good mood but C is average and when I see my cellar dwelling team with a big market make a trade I expect more than a C.

[mvp 78]

Willy Abar? A 40 year old infielder? This was supposed to be an upgrade??

 

I think moon was trying to reference Wilyer Abreu but goofed on the last name. https://www.milb.com/player/wilyer-abreu-677800

[dgalehouse]

50,000 people at Citizens Bank Park , spending money and having a great time. The lights are out at Fenway , it is empty except for a couple of janitors. Nice job , Bloom.

[moonslav59]

I think moon was trying to reference Wilyer Abreu but goofed on the last name. https://www.milb.com/player/wilyer-abreu-677800

 

Yup. Wilyer Abreu: king of walks.

 

Not some slouch prospect.