Fire Bloom .

[moonslav59]

For the Philadelphia franchise, the '80 world champs signed Pete Rose, who Mike Schmidt said made the difference in Philly finally winning a ring. Rose hit .326 that postseason. The '05 ChiSox signed Jermaine Dye, who was World Series MVP. For the Kansas City franchise, the '85 world champs signed Dan Quisenberry as an undrafted free agent. They didn't take him from a different team, but any club could have presumably signed Quiz for the right price. Five times in six years he finished in the top five for the Cy Young and received AL MVP votes.

 

Jermaine Dye was a big FA signing?

 

What about the 2015 Royals?

 

Look, your point was sound- just not the word "every."

 

[notin]

I think they're more the exception than the rule.

 

We've discussed how all 4 of the Red Sox title teams had big FA's.

 

Rule?

 

There are no rules.

[mvp 78]

How about...

 

$285M/10 Devers

 

$248M/8 Judge

 

Devers at 28.5 AAV and Judge at 31 AAV? Sign BOTH!

 

That's close to what some people assumed it would take to sign Devers and Bogey.

[notin]

Jermaine Dye was a big FA signing?

 

What about the 2015 Royals?

 

Look, your point was sound- just not the word "every."

 

 

This is another generalization where criteria gets melded to fit the statement.

 

Sort of like “you need an ace to win the World Series” Or you need a close. Now you need a free agent.

 

The problem is there are guests exceptions. And quite often the rules for what fits get redefined to support the initial postulate.

 

The reality is - there are no rules. Other than winning at the right time…

[mvp 78]

For the Philadelphia franchise, the '80 world champs signed Pete Rose, who Mike Schmidt said made the difference in Philly finally winning a ring. Rose hit .326 that postseason. The '05 ChiSox signed Jermaine Dye, who was World Series MVP. For the Kansas City franchise, the '85 world champs signed Dan Quisenberry as an undrafted free agent. They didn't take him from a different team, but any club could have presumably signed Quiz for the right price. Five times in six years he finished in the top five for the Cy Young and received AL MVP votes.

 

Oh yeah, well who did the 75/76 Reds sign then?

 

Are these the arguments we have to have when the Red Sox suck and the WS is rained out?

[mvp 78]

Rule?

 

There are no rules.

 

Saying that there are no rules would be a rule.

[Bellhorn04]

Rule?

 

There are no rules.

 

There is a correlation.

[notin]

There is a correlation.

 

But most of the correlations are so vague. If there was any magic formula for winning a title, every team would do it. But that magic formula simply doesn’t exist.

 

And even if the Sox signed no one this off-season and then won the title, we slay have prime free agents. Certainly Story should qualify. Or Kike…

[notin]

Saying that there are no rules would be a rule.

 

Rule 1 : There are no rules. So ignore rule 1.

 

Seems to create a logical paradox…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Oh yeah, well who did the 75/76 Reds sign then?

 

Are these the arguments we have to have when the Red Sox suck and the WS is rained out?

 

Nobody -- the '76 Reds were literally the last of the reserve clause winners. The Free Agency Era began after the '76 season.

 

In the first rules of free agency, interested teams were required to draft players in a “re-entry draft” for the right to offer bids. Eligible players could be drafted by a maximum of 12 teams. Only one club chose not to draft a single player: the back-to-back world champion Cincinnati Reds.

 

Instead, Cincy was forced to dismantle its club in the next few years, similar to the great Oakland champs.

[Bellhorn04]

But most of the correlations are so vague. If there was any magic formula for winning a title, every team would do it. But that magic formula simply doesn’t exist.

 

There's no magic formula when the postseason has such a high crapshoot factor.

 

But teams like the Yankees, Astros, Dodgers and Cardinals are making the playoffs just about every year, and teams like the Pirates and Marlins have little chance.

 

Money helps a lot. But it takes money plus smarts to be consistently successful.

 

The Rays are doing it mostly with smarts, admittedly.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Jermaine Dye was a big FA signing?

 

What about the 2015 Royals?

 

Look, your point was sound- just not the word "every."

 

 

I never said Dye was a big FA signing. But as the WS MVP, he was a prime player in helping his franchise win.

 

And I said "every franchise that won a World Series," not every World Series that every franchise won.

 

From 1980 to 2019, franchises that won at least one ring received ample contributions towards a world championship from a free agent it signed.

[moonslav59]

I never said Dye was a big FA signing. But as the WS MVP, he was a prime player in helping his franchise win.

 

And I said "every franchise that won a World Series," not every World Series that every franchise won.

 

From 1980 to 2019, franchises that won at least one ring received ample contributions towards a world championship from a free agent it signed.

 

I don't want to appear to be nit-picking, but I'm only speaking to this statement you made:

 

Historically in the free agent era, every franchise that won a World Series signed a prime free agent that helped get them over the top.

 

So, when you say Jermaine Dye, that implies you think he was a "prime FA," right?

[mvp 78]

Nobody -- the '76 Reds were literally the last of the reserve clause winners. The Free Agency Era began after the '76 season.

 

In the first rules of free agency, interested teams were required to draft players in a “re-entry draft” for the right to offer bids. Eligible players could be drafted by a maximum of 12 teams. Only one club chose not to draft a single player: the back-to-back world champion Cincinnati Reds.

 

Instead, Cincy was forced to dismantle its club in the next few years, similar to the great Oakland champs.

 

MLB has its own history.

 

When did free agency start?

 

There were "free agents" as far back as 1931. Browns owner Phil Ball filed a lawsuit against Commissioner Kennesaw Landis that year, seeking a restraining order when Landis granted free agency to a number of Ball's players based on minor league farm system contract violations.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I don't want to appear to be nit-picking, but I'm only speaking to this statement you made:

 

Historically in the free agent era, every franchise that won a World Series signed a prime free agent that helped get them over the top.

 

So, when you say Jermaine Dye, that implies you think he was a "prime FA," right?

 

Nitpicking? On talksox? Noooooooooooooooooooo.........

 

I do think Dye was a prime FA, because in '05 he was 31, which falls under the parameters of a player's prime (generally accepted from ages 28-32). He also proved to be a primetime guy by being voted World Series MVP, and continued to be a prime rib choice cut of beef the following year, leading the Sox in HRs, RBIs, for 5th in AL MVP as an All-Star and Silver Slugger.

[moonslav59]

Devers at 28.5 AAV and Judge at 31 AAV? Sign BOTH!

 

That's close to what some people assumed it would take to sign Devers and Bogey.

 

Getting both might make even the Bloom bashers climb aboard, even if we had Arroyo at SS, so we could afford it.

[moonslav59]

Nitpicking? On talksox? Noooooooooooooooooooo.........

 

I do think Dye was a prime FA, because in '05 he was 31, which falls under the parameters of a player's prime (generally accepted from ages 28-32). He also proved to be a primetime guy by being voted World Series MVP, and continued to be a prime rib choice cut of beef the following year, leading the Sox in HRs, RBIs, for 5th in AL MVP as an All-Star and Silver Slugger.

 

I guess we can haggle over wht "prime means, but to me, Dye was not "prime," when they signed him. He has one really good year in 2000 and a couple nice years in 1999 and 2001, but the 3 years prior to the signing he had a 95 OPS+.

 

Now, his first 4 years in Chicago were "prime:" 126 OPS+, so one could argue they signed a "prime FA" in hindsight.

[mvp 78]

Getting both might make even the Bloom bashers climb aboard, even if we had Arroyo at SS, so we could afford it.

 

At that point, maybe they even just sign a guy really cheap like Simmons and hope for a bounce back year. If it doesn't work out, find someone cheap to trade for in season.

[moonslav59]

At that point, maybe they even just sign a guy really cheap like Simmons and hope for a bounce back year. If it doesn't work out, find someone cheap to trade for in season.

 

They'd have to skimp on pitching, too, but it might be worth it.

 

Also, they could structure Devers' deal to start in 2024, so maybe they could still reset in 2023 and be bloated, afterwards.

 

Can you imagine?

 

1. Kike

2. Judge

3. Story

4. Devers

5. umm...

 

[Old Red]

Getting both might make even the Bloom bashers climb aboard, even if we had Arroyo at SS, so we could afford it.

 

Wouldn’t change a thing for me, because JH would get the credit. Now if Bogey, and Raffy aren’t resigned that will be on Henry too. If Raffy gets traded what they get back in return will be on Bloom, and who replaces Bogey, and Raffy if they both leave will be on Bloom too. Sounds pretty simple to me.

[moonslav59]

Wouldn’t change a thing for me, because JH would get the credit. Now if Bogey, and Raffy aren’t resigned that will be on Henry too. If Raffy gets traded what they get back in return will be on Bloom, and who replaces Bogey, and Raffy if they both leave will be on Bloom too. Sounds pretty simple to me.

 

But is it Bloom's fault he didn't spend much from the winter before 2020 to the Story signing?

 

Or, was it his fault for not producing miracles with low level signings?

 

Are you saying, "If he spends big, it's on JH, but if he spends small it's on Bloom?"

 

Granted, he made some bad moves and signings, but it's hard enough for GMs with hefty spending budget to get everything right.

[moonslav59]

Wouldn’t change a thing for me, because JH would get the credit. Now if Bogey, and Raffy aren’t resigned that will be on Henry too. If Raffy gets traded what they get back in return will be on Bloom, and who replaces Bogey, and Raffy if they both leave will be on Bloom too. Sounds pretty simple to me.

 

Are you answering as a "Bloom basher?"

[Old Red]

But is it Bloom's fault he didn't spend much from the winter before 2020 to the Story signing?

 

Or, was it his fault for not producing miracles with low level signings?

 

Are you saying, "If he spends big, it's on JH, but if he spends small it's on Bloom?"

 

Granted, he made some bad moves and signings, but it's hard enough for GMs with hefty spending budget to get everything right.

It’s always on JH, but Bloom has to make do with whatever money he has to spend, and I’m sure he knew that going in. Theo got things wrong, and DD too, but they are no longer the Hobo in Boston anymore, and Bloom is.

[Old Red]

Are you answering as a "Bloom basher?"

 

I have the tee shirt, but I prefer being a critic, but either one will do.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Old Red

[notin]

I never said Dye was a big FA signing. But as the WS MVP, he was a prime player in helping his franchise win.

 

And I said "every franchise that won a World Series," not every World Series that every franchise won.

 

From 1980 to 2019, franchises that won at least one ring received ample contributions towards a world championship from a free agent it signed.

 

“Every franchise that has won a World Series” means every team except San Diego, Tampa, Milwaukee and Seattle. And all of them - including Tampa - have signed prime free agents at some point…

[moonslav59]

It’s always on JH, but Bloom has to make do with whatever money he has to spend, and I’m sure he knew that going in. Theo got things wrong, and DD too, but they are no longer the Hobo in Boston anymore, and Bloom is.

 

Of course he knew what he was getting into on day one. The budget was slashed by a massive amount on a roster and farm that as already in big trouble.

 

The hobo status ended with the Story signing, which came very late in Bloom's 3 years of being the GM. Of course he is open to criticism, but context is needed.

 

If you take all of his moves up to the Story signing within the context of a very limited budget and a priority to build the farm up through trades and not to build up the big club by trading the farm, I think the overall grade is at worst, a decent one.

[notin]

Wouldn’t change a thing for me, because JH would get the credit. Now if Bogey, and Raffy aren’t resigned that will be on Henry too. If Raffy gets traded what they get back in return will be on Bloom, and who replaces Bogey, and Raffy if they both leave will be on Bloom too. Sounds pretty simple to me.

 

Shouldn’t that allow for whatever the budget leaves to replace Bogaerts and Devers?

[Old Red]

Shouldn’t that allow for whatever the budget leaves to replace Bogaerts and Devers?

 

Should be even more of spending money if Bogey, and, or Raffy leave, and that will be up to Bloom to replace the two with that money,or use it elsewhere.

[moonslav59]

My guess is, if Bogey and Devers bolt, their money will be spread out, but there is only so far you can go with improving your roster depth. Eventually, you need to address quality- maybe at the expense of quantity, don't you?

 

The 40 man roster and farm depth have already been greatly improved, on paper, anyway, and that is what is usually referred to as an essential element of having a foundation to build on.

 

Times up, IMO.

 

We will be seeing 12-15 prospects or very recent grads getting a look in 2023. We have "only" 6-8 weak areas to fill, and while that seems like a lot, it's way less than past winters, and this winter's spending budget should be Bloom's largest, even if we choose to reset.

 

It's make or break time for Bloom & Co.

[Old Red]

My guess is, if Bogey and Devers bolt, their money will be spread out, but there is only so far you can go with improving your roster depth. Eventually, you need to address quality- maybe at the expense of quantity, don't you?

 

The 40 man roster and farm depth have already been greatly improved, on paper, anyway, and that is what is usually referred to as an essential element of having a foundation to build on.

 

Times up, IMO.

 

We will be seeing 12-15 prospects or very recent grads getting a look in 2023. We have "only" 6-8 weak areas to fill, and while that seems like a lot, it's way less than past winters, and this winter's spending budget should be Bloom's largest, even if we choose to reset.

 

It's make or break time for Bloom & Co.

If Bogey, Raffy, and JD are all gone lots of offense will have to be made up somewhere, and somehow. 2022 numbers were not as good as previous years, but still it will have to be made up.