Sox extend Whitlock

[dgalehouse]

Amazingly enough, the Red Sox only won the division once under Theo in 9 seasons, and it was in his 5th season.

 

I don't think winning the division is necessarily the real barometer of success.

With the wild card situation, there is always the chance to get hot in the post season. I think winning the division is always the goal.

[dgalehouse]

Reality is he was handed a weak farm and bottom of the 40 man roster (like the bottom 18 slots) and a tight new spending budget.

 

The checkbook was opened, this winter, so the clock starts ticking now.

 

Blaming Bloom for 2020 and the over performing 2021 season is short-sighted.

I don't care for excuses. When you are the guy in charge , you have to be responsible for the results.

[Bellhorn04]

With the wild card situation, there is always the chance to get hot in the post season. I think winning the division is always the goal.

 

It's fine to have it as a goal, but as I say, the man considered by many to be the one of the best GM's in history only did it once in 9 seasons with us.

[dgalehouse]

It's fine to have it as a goal, but as I say, the man considered by many to be the one of the best GM's in history only did it once in 9 seasons with us.

 

That does take something away from his accomplishments. But breaking the curse overrides everything.

[moonslav59]

I don't care for excuses. When you are the guy in charge , you have to be responsible for the results.

 

Good for you

[dgalehouse]

Good for you

 

Good for me? What does that mean?

[notin]

That does take something away from his accomplishments. But breaking the curse overrides everything.

 

Why?

 

Dombrowski won the two division titles with teams that won 93 games. Epstein’s teams exceeded that total 6 times and came in second 5 of them.

 

Winning the division is nice, but at what point are you giving a GM credit for the rest of the division being weak?

Edited April 12, 2022 by notin

[dgalehouse]

Why?

 

Dombrowski won the two division titles with teams that won 93 games. Epstein’s teams exceeded that total 6 times and came in second 5 of them.

 

Winning the division is nice, but at what point are you giving a GM credit for the rest of the division being weak?

 

That is your thing. You like to break everything down and analyze. It doesn't change the bottom line. I look for results. You compete. You try to win. You win or you don't. No excuses. In here , we have fans who scour the Internet to try and find something that supports their opinion. It does not change the realty. It just doesn't matter. But if that's what you like , it's okay. My question is how long do we continue to praise Bloom if he doesn't win anything? Five years? Or what? Or indefinitely if we like his style?

[notin]

That is your thing. You like to break everything down and analyze. It doesn't change the bottom line. I look for results. You compete. You try to win. You win or you don't. No excuses. In here , we have fans who scour the Internet to try and find something that supports their opinion. It does not change the realty. It just doesn't matter. But if that's what you like , it's okay. My question is how long do we continue to praise Bloom if he doesn't win anything? Five years? Or what? Or indefinitely if we like his style?

 

 

It’s a simple question.

 

If division titles are the sole measure, when do we acknowledge not all titles are created equal.

 

In Dombrowski’s first two years, the Sox won 93 games each time and won the division title. In those two years in the AL East, only one other team won 90 games. Last year, the Sox won 92 games - enough to win the East in 2016 and 2017. But they played in a division where four teams won 91 games, including one team winning 100. This year, the AL East figures to be just as tough if not tougher. Why doesn’t that get taken into account? It’s not like Bloom has any control with what other teams do. And he certainly couldn’t stop Toronto from developing a lineup full of legacy sluggers.

 

Epstein only won one title because he was up against Vintage Core Four in NY. Why does that tarnish his accomplishments according to you?

[dgalehouse]

It’s a simple question.

 

If division titles are the sole measure, when do we acknowledge not all titles are created equal.

 

In Dombrowski’s first two years, the Sox won 93 games each time and won the division title. In those two years in the AL East, only one other team won 90 games. Last year, the Sox won 92 games - enough to win the East in 2016 and 2017. But they played in a division where four teams won 91 games, including one team winning 100. This year, the AL East figures to be just as tough if not tougher. Why doesn’t that get taken into account? It’s not like Bloom has any control with what other teams do. And he certainly couldn’t stop Toronto from developing a lineup full of legacy sluggers.

 

Epstein only won one title because he was up against Vintage Core Four in NY. Why does that tarnish his accomplishments according to you?

You are competing against the teams in your division. You want to be the best. If they beat you out , then you were not the best . Maybe you had a high win total because you were able to beat up on weaker teams too. You can analyze it to death. There are so many different factors. Results are what matters. The fact is that the other guy was better. The competition was better. Nothing changes that. As far as Theo is concerned, what would his standing be if Dave Roberts was picked off first? I know how you like to break things down and examine everything. But in the end , there is a winner and there are also rans. The ever growing wild card rules do provide another shot for some also rans. That didn't use to be the case either. Anyway , I am getting repetitive and I don't want to go round and round with this. Do your thing . To me , in a five team division, a success means finishing in first place. If you don't do that , someone else was better than you. I want to see Bloom win before I put any trust in him. That's how I see it. Have a good night.

[jacksonianmarch]

So the 21 Sox were a failure? That’s pretty harsh IMO. Exceeded expectations, won the WC play in game vs hated rivals then knocked off division winners in ALDS. That’s a pretty successful year. If all you measure by is division titles, you won’t be able to enjoy the other methods of making the POs and possibly winning a title

[cp176]

With the wild card situation, there is always the chance to get hot in the post season. I think winning the division is always the goal.

 

Without one ounce of doubt, I agree. competing throughout the entire course of a baseball season with making the playoffs your goal, makes for possibly a boring summer. You play to win especially at this level. It is why expanded playoffs and extended seasons just don't work for this fan. I understand that you can't turn back the clock but hey maybe we should just give a trophy to all teams that can break .500 and call it good. Or even better how about special awards to managers and coaches who can keep their players healthy all season? We ought to be able to reward all for just being there.

[notin]

I thought the goal was winning a World Series?

 

Winning the division is nice, but at the end of the day all it gets you is a better postseason seating.

 

And it very shouldn’t be the measure of a GM or team…

[cp176]

Quite likely most people would agree with you. I would to a certain extent. I just don't share the same amount of joy i guess when any team can squeak there way into the playoffs and then get lucky. The expanded diluted playoff format makes me much less interested in the regular season than i ever was before. Oh well, the clocks not getting turned back. i much prefer watching a championship series that features 2 teams that have proven to be the best over the course of a grinding summer season.

[Bellhorn04]

I thought the goal was winning a World Series?

 

Winning the division is nice, but at the end of the day all it gets you is a better postseason seating.

 

And it very shouldn’t be the measure of a GM or team…

 

No, apparently 2016 and 2017 were better years than 2004.

 

You learn something new every day.

[Bellhorn04]

Quite likely most people would agree with you. I would to a certain extent. I just don't share the same amount of joy i guess when any team can squeak there way into the playoffs and then get lucky. The expanded diluted playoff format makes me much less interested in the regular season than i ever was before. Oh well, the clocks not getting turned back. i much prefer watching a championship series that features 2 teams that have proven to be the best over the course of a grinding summer season.

 

They expanded the playoffs in 1969.

 

And even before that, some years the 2 best teams were in the same league.

[Kimmi]

It's a beautiful deal, really. Whitlock gets financial security, the Sox potentially get a bargain, and have a lot of control with those 2 team options and low buyouts.

 

Nice work by Bloom IMHO

 

It's a win-win IMO. The Sox are taking on some risk, as is the case with any long term contract, but the value is potentially extremely good. Especially since I'm thinking that Whitlock will be transitioned into a starting role.

[Kimmi]

At some point, liking Bloom's style is not going to be enough. There is a bottom line reality. This is his third year. So far , he has a fifth place finish and a tied for second and third place finish. Hopefully, we do win the division soon. Maybe this year? How long of a leash does he have without winning at least the division? Four years? Five?

 

You seem to look at not winning the division as some type of failure. I like to look at making it farther in the playoffs than any other AL East team as some sort of success. Granted, the playoffs are largely a crapshoot, so we can't really credit Bloom for what happens in the postseason. However, we should credit him for putting together a team that made it to the playoffs, regardless of whether they win the division or not. He gave the team a really good chance.

 

Bloom had a lot of rebuilding to do. Outside of 2020 when we had some major starting pitching injuries, he has been able to keep the team competitive while rebuilding. That's difficult to do. Rebuilding plans typically take 5 years. Bloom is way ahead of schedule.

[Kimmi]

That is your thing. You like to break everything down and analyze. It doesn't change the bottom line. I look for results. You compete. You try to win. You win or you don't. No excuses. In here , we have fans who scour the Internet to try and find something that supports their opinion. It does not change the realty. It just doesn't matter. But if that's what you like , it's okay. My question is how long do we continue to praise Bloom if he doesn't win anything? Five years? Or what? Or indefinitely if we like his style?

 

Sincere question: Do you consider the 2021 season a failure because the team did not win the division?

[cp176]

They expanded the playoffs in 1969.

 

And even before that, some years the 2 best teams were in the same league.

 

Correct - I think that the playoffs in general are so watered down and lengthy now though that it decreases the incentives to finish first in the division. i do not like that. Obviously it must be just me though right who feels this way. Unfortunately i guess I was raised athletically to believe that the goal was to finish first. It is likely that no amount of soul searching or criticism with respect to my beliefs are going to change them much.

[Bellhorn04]

Correct - I think that the playoffs in general are so watered down and lengthy now though that it decreases the incentives to finish first in the division. i do not like that. Obviously it must be just me though right who feels this way. Unfortunately i guess I was raised athletically to believe that the goal was to finish first. It is likely that no amount of soul searching or criticism with respect to my beliefs are going to change them much.

 

You mean you weren't raised to believe that it's not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game?

 

OK, mostly kidding with that. But I think the truth is we all have our own way of looking at things, and nobody is going to change it.

[Kimmi]

Correct - I think that the playoffs in general are so watered down and lengthy now though that it decreases the incentives to finish first in the division. i do not like that. Obviously it must be just me though right who feels this way. Unfortunately i guess I was raised athletically to believe that the goal was to finish first. It is likely that no amount of soul searching or criticism with respect to my beliefs are going to change them much.

 

Of course Bloom and the team want to finish first in the division. I don't think anyone on the team, players or management, enter the season with the idea of shooting for 2nd place in the division. But it's not worth the risk of going all in with payroll and prospects when that guarantees nothing. There are other ways, far better IMO, to build a division winning team. Just because we don't make the splashy moves doesn't mean we're not trying to win the division.

 

If the team falls short of winning the division but still makes the playoffs via a wildcard, I don't consider that a failure.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Correct - I think that the playoffs in general are so watered down and lengthy now though that it decreases the incentives to finish first in the division. i do not like that. Obviously it must be just me though right who feels this way. Unfortunately i guess I was raised athletically to believe that the goal was to finish first. It is likely that no amount of soul searching or criticism with respect to my beliefs are going to change them much.

 

It may be impossible for younger fans and posters to fathom there once was a time when the most important goal in baseball was to finish first. Imagine fretting over day-to-day battles for six long months, instead of just aiming to peak for a few weeks in October? Winning The Pennant was actually a bigger accomplishment than one best-of-seven series in the fall.

 

But that only mattered for a hundred years.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

 

If the team falls short of winning the division but still makes the playoffs via a wildcard, I don't consider that a failure.

 

That's not very elite of you. Imagine growing up a Yankee fan in the 90s, and going through life feeling that anything less than a World Series ring is a failure?

[notin]

I thought the goal was winning a World Series?

 

Winning the division is nice, but at the end of the day all it gets you is a better postseason seating.

 

And it very shouldn’t be the measure of a GM or team…

 

No, apparently 2016 and 2017 were better years than 2004.

 

You learn something new every day.

 

There’s something to be said for the 2021 team over the 2016 and 2017 teams. Winning 92 games while playing in the same division as three other teams that won 91 games is a ridiculous feat…

[cp176]

Of course Bloom and the team want to finish first in the division. I don't think anyone on the team, players or management, enter the season with the idea of shooting for 2nd place in the division. But it's not worth the risk of going all in with payroll and prospects when that guarantees nothing. There are other ways, far better IMO, to build a division winning team. Just because we don't make the splashy moves doesn't mean we're not trying to win the division.

 

If the team falls short of winning the division but still makes the playoffs via a wildcard, I don't consider that a failure.

 

No one in their right mind would disagree with any of this when looked upon through today's lens.

[mvp 78]

Any Sox team that wins a playoff series can consider their season a success.

 

I consider the 1999 team to be a success.

 

I consider the 2005 team to be a failure.

 

I consider the 2008 team to be a success.

 

I consider the 2009 team to be a failure.

 

Now, if they win the WC game to get to the playoffs but lose the first series? I don't know how I'd feel.

[notin]

 

Now, if they win the WC game to get to the playoffs but lose the first series? I don't know how I'd feel.

 

And given the new playoff format, you’ll never have to decide…

[cp176]

It may be impossible for younger fans and posters to fathom there once was a time when the most important goal in baseball was to finish first. Imagine fretting over day-to-day battles for six long months, instead of just aiming to peak for a few weeks in October? Winning The Pennant was actually a bigger accomplishment than one best-of-seven series in the fall.

 

But that only mattered for a hundred years.

 

 

I loved those times. Honestly, right or wrong by today's watered down standards, I still believe that if your primary goal is to make the playoffs as opposed to being the number one seed then your chances of winning the whole thing might be wattered down just a bit because of this approach. It is pretty difficult to turn up the jets all of a sudden if they have been on standby for very long. I'm not saying that it is a good thing but this saying worked for me athletically - "What I had i gave because what i saved I lost." It's an antiquated way to approach life I guess but oh well I sure hope my grandchildren will see it that way. It is a guarantee for success no matter the job.

[cp176]

You mean you weren't raised to believe that it's not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game?

 

OK, mostly kidding with that. But I think the truth is we all have our own way of looking at things, and nobody is going to change it.

 

 

You are right.