2022 Bullpen Thread

[mvp 78]

Yes, but many people found E.T. cute.

 

Need a woman's opinion here. But we only have one, Kimmi, and she's too nice to grade players on ugliness.

 

We sorely miss VA at times like this.

[mvp 78]

They can’t be worse than I expect. That is for sure. I guess that Barnes must be toast if he didn’t make a single appearance against the Yankees.

 

I've heard possible IL stint.

[notin]

They can’t be worse than I expect. That is for sure. I guess that Barnes must be toast if he didn’t make a single appearance against the Yankees.

 

They mentioned back issues last night on the broadcast. Not sure why he isn’t on the Injured List.

 

Either the Sox don’t think it’s that serious, or figure they don’t need him right now anyway with the two extra pitchers up. I suppose a retroactive IL stint is always possible…

[Old Red]

I always felt Houck should close and Whitlock start, but it's a close call/

 

I don’t think Houck has the consistency of throwing strikes to be a closer. He has the stuff, but not the control, which Whitlock does, and I would trust Whitlock more in the closers role, which I think that’s where he should be. I think it is a waste to only pitch Whitlock 2 times a week as a long man when he could pitch 3-4 as a closer.

[notin]

One lesson on those bullpens - you gotta throw at least 95.

 

I mean, we got Hansel Robles on a minor league deal, and he is throwing 96mph smoke out there. That’s ridiculous. Thirty years ago, if you threw 95, you were a freak and you were pushed into a closer role and paid accordingly. Nowadays, if you don’t throw 95, you need to develop some sort of sneaky pitching tricks just to get into AA ball…

[mvp 78]

I don’t think Houck has the consistency of throwing strikes to be a closer. He has the stuff, but not the control, which Whitlock does, and I would trust Whitlock more in the closers role, which I think that’s where he should be. I think it is a waste to only pitch Whitlock 2 times a week as a long man when he could pitch 3-4 as a closer.

 

In a short stint, he could overpower guys and not have to be too accurate. If Joe Kelly can find success in the pen with his wildness, I think Houck would be just fine.

[Bellhorn04]

One lesson on those bullpens - you gotta throw at least 95.

 

I mean, we got Hansel Robles on a minor league deal, and he is throwing 96mph smoke out there. That’s ridiculous. Thirty years ago, if you threw 95, you were a freak and you were pushed into a closer role and paid accordingly. Nowadays, if you don’t throw 95, you need to develop some sort of sneaky pitching tricks just to get into AA ball…

 

Yep. The steady diet of smoke is one of the reasons Freddie Freeman says going the other way against the shift ain't as easy as some people think...

[Old Red]

In a short stint, he could overpower guys and not have to be too accurate. If Joe Kelly can find success in the pen with his wildness, I think Houck would be just fine.

 

I just don’t think at this point that there is serious thought of making Houck a closer, and will get every chance with Frail out to be a part of the rotation, which lots have been clamoring for on here. On the other hand I don’t think there is serious thought right now of putting Whitlock into the rotation, but that could all change with Houck, Hill, or Whacka imploding.

[mvp 78]

https://twitter.com/redsoxstats/status/1513504317025701898

 

Diekman from last night.

[notin]

I just don’t think at this point that there is serious thought of making Houck a closer, and will get every chance with Frail out to be a part of the rotation, which lots have been clamoring for on here. On the other hand I don’t think there is serious thought right now of putting Whitlock into the rotation, but that could all change with Houck, Hill, or Whacka imploding.

 

And finding relievers will be cheaper than finding starters. I wouldn’t be surprised if, against my wishes, both Houck and Whitlock were starters by 2023…

[mvp 78]

I just don’t think at this point that there is serious thought of making Houck a closer, and will get every chance with Frail out to be a part of the rotation, which lots have been clamoring for on here. On the other hand I don’t think there is serious thought right now of putting Whitlock into the rotation, but that could all change with Houck, Hill, or Whacka imploding.

 

I mean, why wouldn't there be consideration? They are stretching him out for multiple innings. They have him in a piggy back role with Hill. They have said that they see him as a starter.

[notin]

Yep. The steady diet of smoke is one of the reasons Freddie Freeman says going the other way against the shift ain't as easy as some people think...

 

And it was weird watching Diekman’s slider. My thought was “that pitch just looks so hittable.” But maybe that’s why it works - it only looks hittable…

[jacksonianmarch]

And it was weird watching Diekman’s slider. My thought was “that pitch just looks so hittable.” But maybe that’s why it works - it only looks hittable…

 

Last night Diekman’s slider looked very hittable to righties but he located it out of the zone. He didn’t throw many in the zone strikes with it, especially vs the righties. He got the righties with the heater and just kept them honest with the slider. Now that slider from 3/4 on a lefty when you know he’s got 96 in his arsenal is almost impossible. Diekman has been a good reliever for a long time for a reason. He’s got lights out stuff. His issue is command in and out of the zone

[Old Red]

I mean, why wouldn't there be consideration? They are stretching him out for multiple innings. They have him in a piggy back role with Hill. They have said that they see him as a starter.

 

I get your point, but if they see him as a starter then why isn’t he starting? Being in a piggy back role to me is just a waste of only pitching 1-2 days a week compared to 3-4 days a week as a closer. The Red Sox May view him as a starter in the future, but I just don’t think right now. I’m not saying I’m right, but just my thought.

[Old Red]

And finding relievers will be cheaper than finding starters. I wouldn’t be surprised if, against my wishes, both Houck and Whitlock were starters by 2023…

 

Who knows what the staff, or the team for that matter will look like next year. Could be lots of comings, and goings.

[mvp 78]

I get your point, but if they see him as a starter then why isn’t he starting? Being in a piggy back role to me is just a waste of only pitching 1-2 days a week compared to 3-4 days a week as a closer. The Red Sox May view him as a starter in the future, but I just don’t think right now. I’m not saying I’m right, but just my thought.

 

I think they have a lot of older starters and the expectation is that one or two of them don't make it across the line. When that happens, they'll have a stretched out Whitlock ready to takeover.

 

I don't think they see him as a bulk reliever type. They extended him because he will be given the opportunity to start.

 

Right now, it's still early in the season and they are trying to see where everyone shakes out. There's always a lot of moving parts on a pitching squad this early in the season.

[mvp 78]

https://twitter.com/redsoxstats/status/1513514290325725190

 

Crawford from last night. His stuff is really playing up in the pen. He could be an impact arm going forward.

[Maxbialystock]

If the Yankees series has suggested anything, it's that right now the bullpen is way, way more effective than the rotation. The rotation has pitched 14 innings while giving up 10 earned runs, and the bullpen has gone 13 innings while giving up 1 earned run.

 

I also think this is a unique phenomenon for this season, one that Boone capitalized on in the first two games and Cora was kind of forced into in game 3 when he pulled Houck after 3.1 innings and 78 pitches.

 

To top off this craziness--if you assumed, as I did, that Eovaldi, Pivetta, and Houck would pitch better than the bullpen--last night in the 9th Diekman, whom the Sox are paying $3M of his $3.5M salary, struck out the Yankees 2 thru 4 hitters (Judge, Stanton, and Gallo) in the 9th inning and needed I think 11 pitches to get Judge out. Diekman, a lefty, K'd two righties, Judge and Stanton, and a lefty, Gallo.

 

After the first two games, I opined that maybe Boone outmanaged Cora by using his bullpen a lot earlier, but also added that, going into this season, I had my doubts about the bullpen.

 

After last night, I think Cora may have returned to his wily ways of 2021.

[Bellhorn04]

To top off this craziness--if you assumed, as I did, that Eovaldi, Pivetta, and Houck would pitch better than the bullpen--last night in the 9th Diekman, whom the Sox are paying $3M of his $3.5M salary, struck out the Yankees 2 thru 4 hitters (Judge, Stanton, and Gallo) in the 9th inning and needed I think 11 pitches to get Judge out.

 

Huh?

[Bellhorn04]

After the first two games, I opined that maybe Boone outmanaged Cora by using his bullpen a lot earlier, but also added that, going into this season, I had my doubts about the bullpen.

 

After last night, I think Cora may have returned to his wily ways of 2021.

 

It's extraordinary how much smarter managers look after a close win than they do after a close loss.

[mvp 78]

Huh?

 

He signed for 2/8M. He's being paid 3.5 in cash in 22 and 23 with a 1M buyout in 24. He has a club option for 4M in 24. I don't know what Max is getting at.

 

His luxury tax salary is 4M, so 4M paid at 3.5 instead of 3.5M paid at 3?

[Maxbialystock]

It's extraordinary how much smarter managers look after a close win than they do after a close loss.

 

Yep. But let's face it. When the owner or GM or whoever is evaluating their manager, his first consideration is wins and losses.

 

In 2018 John Henry must have felt he had tapped into a gusher. 2019, not so much, followed by the 2020 suspension. But they rehired Cora for 2021, which proved to be confirmatory.

[Maxbialystock]

He signed for 2/8M. He's being paid 3.5 in cash in 22 and 23 with a 1M buyout in 24. He has a club option for 4M in 24. I don't know what Max is getting at.

 

His luxury tax salary is 4M, so 4M paid at 3.5 instead of 3.5M paid at 3?

 

 

I misread spotrac and thought it showed $3M for one of the columns on Diekman. Today a relook confirms no $3M column.

[mvp 78]

It's extraordinary how much smarter managers look after a close win than they do after a close loss.

 

3 games into a season, I'm not ready to dump Cora or Bloom just yet. They would need to have a 2020 redux for me to jump off the ship this year. Even a mediocre 2019 follow up would be annoying, but not shake my trust.

[moonslav59]

3 games into a season, I'm not ready to dump Cora or Bloom just yet. They would need to have a 2020 redux for me to jump off the ship this year. Even a mediocre 2019 follow up would be annoying, but not shake my trust.

 

These guys have a longer plan. I don't think they expected 2021 to be so good. I'm thinking they both need to get to 2023 and 2024 to get a real feel for how good they are.

 

This next winter will be very telling, as we lose some top talent and top salaries, too.

[mvp 78]

These guys have a longer plan. I don't think they expected 2021 to be so good. I'm thinking they both need to get to 2023 and 2024 to get a real feel for how good they are.

 

This next winter will be very telling, as we lose some top talent and top salaries, too.

 

You keep saying that, but we were told over and over that they expected to compete in 2021.

 

At first, we were told "just let them reset and we'll be back to spending." Well, that's hasn't really happened yet and they stayed under the tax limit for 2 straight years. Why kick the spending can further down the street to 23 or 24?

[moonslav59]

You keep saying that, but we were told over and over that they expected to compete in 2021.

 

At first, we were told "just let them reset and we'll be back to spending." Well, that's hasn't really happened yet and they stayed under the tax limit for 2 straight years. Why kick the spending can further down the street to 23 or 24?

 

They had a good enough roster to "compete" in 2021, but I don't think they expected us to win 92 games and go as far as we did. (I'm not a believer in the playoffs are a crapshoot idea.)

 

I think their number one priority was to plan for 2023-2024, keep the reset in place and see what happens. They gave Cordero and Dalbec (and others) longer looks than most "contending" and spending teams would have done.

 

Now that spending is back on the table, I think they feel better about 2022, but the main priority is still 2023 and beyond.

 

I don't expect us to trade good prospects, this deadline, even if we look like a very strong contender. We may pick up a Schwarber type player or maybe better pen help tan Robles/Davis of '21, but I still don't feel like we have gone "all in," yet.

 

BTW, I have explained my breaking down of competitiveness vs high competitiveness philosophy.

[Bellhorn04]

You keep saying that, but we were told over and over that they expected to compete in 2021.

 

At first, we were told "just let them reset and we'll be back to spending." Well, that's hasn't really happened yet and they stayed under the tax limit for 2 straight years. Why kick the spending can further down the street to 23 or 24?

 

They're 11.4 million over the first tax threshold for 2022 right now.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't expect us to trade good prospects, this deadline, even if we look like a very strong contender. We may pick up a Schwarber type player or maybe better pen help tan Robles/Davis of '21, but I still don't feel like we have gone "all in," yet.

 

2018-2019 were the definition of going all in. Henry might not want to even do that again.

[Maxbialystock]

I don’t think Houck has the consistency of throwing strikes to be a closer. He has the stuff, but not the control, which Whitlock does, and I would trust Whitlock more in the closers role, which I think that’s where he should be. I think it is a waste to only pitch Whitlock 2 times a week as a long man when he could pitch 3-4 as a closer.

 

Interesting. My view is that Whitlock has a far better repertoire than Houck, who basically throws three pitches--a slider, a fastball, and fastball that breaks down slightly. He either doesn't have or doesn't trust a curve or a changeup.

 

Last night I thought Houck was close to the strike zone on a lot of balls.

 

Right now I like the way Cora is managing his pitching staff. Whitlock can be a very valuable long reliever, including in the late innings. Houck has the experience starting, so I'm fine with him being in the rotation.