Will there be a 2022 season?

[Bellhorn04]

Baseball really is America's Game, I guess.

 

Major League Baseball seems to represent everything that's good and bad about the country.

[jad]

What has been interesting in the negotiations is that we see reports of MLB coming down off of its maximum asks ... but we don't see MLB making deals that are responsive in any way to player interests. (the two big ones, more money for younger players and incentivizing/forcing competitive behavior by teams.

 

Exactly. They are good at changing the subject. If they were interested in serious negotiations, they would have started in December when they locked the players out. Pretty obvious that this was the game plan all along. Good. Because the owners are going to lose a lot more from a missed season or half season than the players will. Watching their billion dollar investments crater will almost be worth missing a few baseball games.

[Bellhorn04]

Exactly. They are good at changing the subject. If they were interested in serious negotiations, they would have started in December when they locked the players out. Pretty obvious that this was the game plan all along. Good. Because the owners are going to lose a lot more from a missed season or half season than the players will. Watching their billion dollar investments crater will almost be worth missing a few baseball games.

 

Fans and people who work at parks etc. will be the big losers.

[jad]

Fans and people who work at parks etc. will be the big losers.

 

Yes, but when the players give something to support them (the supposed 'millionaires'), the league (the 'billionaires') will make a great show of matching it. If the league really gave a crap about the local community, they would insist on paying property taxes on their ballparks.

[Elktonnick]

Yes, but when the players give something to support them (the supposed 'millionaires'), the league (the 'billionaires') will make a great show of matching it. If the league really gave a crap about the local community, they would insist on paying property taxes on their ballparks.

Only about a half dozen major league clubs actually own the parks in which they play. Camden Yards for example in owned by the Maryland Stadium Authority..

[moonslav59]

I'm not sure why the Int'l draft is such a big issue to the players.

 

If it does away with the QO, it seems like a no-brainer.

 

I think a deal gets done real soon, if this is really the biggest obstacle.

[Tedballgame]

Fans and people who work at parks etc. will be the big losers.

 

The little guys always pay the price for the elites decisions.

[Tedballgame]

I think the average fan's perception is much like Old Red's - no sympathy for either side.

 

I think most fans think that both sides are extremely greedy. And I want to know why there was a 43 day gap in negotiations after the Dec. 2nd lockout? If they wanted to start the season on time they would have been negotiating every day until a deal was reached.

[moonslav59]

I think most fans think that both sides are extremely greedy. And I want to know why there was a 43 day gap in negotiations after the Dec. 2nd lockout? If they wanted to start the season on time they would have been negotiating every day until a deal was reached.

 

It might have helped, if the owners put an offer on the table, day one.

 

A decent offer might have been an even better idea.

[moonslav59]

I'm thinking a deal gets done, real soon, and no games are lost.

 

I can't see the players losing games and money over an international draft.

 

The gaps on other major issues narrowed quickly.

 

Lux Tax Limits:

After previously seeking year-to-year thresholds of $238MM, $244MM, $250MM, $256MM and $263MM, today’s proposal from the union offered thresholds of $232MM in 2022, $235MM in 2023, $240MM in 2024, $245MM in 2025 and $250MM in 2026.

Those new thresholds from the MLPBA represent respective gaps of $2MM, $3MM, $4MM, $5MM and $8MM from the league’s proposed thresholds. Their $65MM bonus pool checks in $25MM north of the league’s proposed $40MM (the equivalent of $833K per team).

 

Min Salary:

The latest union proposal would have a $710K league minimum in 2022. That’s just $10K north of the league’s proposed $700K figure. The league’s offered minimum would finish at $770K by the end of the CBA, while the union is seeking $780K by 2026.

 

Bonus Pool:

the union’s dropped its bonus pool proposal to $65MM and I think MLB has held firm at $30M. It seems this gap can be closed.

 

(Italics are from MLBTR)

[jad]

Only about a half dozen major league clubs actually own the parks in which they play. Camden Yards for example in owned by the Maryland Stadium Authority..

 

You're right, of course. And as far as the owners are concerned, I am likely now in 'Aunt Polly' mode, when Tom protests he didn't deserve to be whupped: "This makes up for all the times I should have whupped you and didn't."

 

Each stadium situation is different, but the one commonality I've noticed in those I've read up on is that the taxpayers get screwed--through various means such as paying for it outright, 'guaranteeing' a certain gate, or having the team/stadium ownership group lease the land for $1 a year ...

[Elktonnick]

You're right, of course. And as far as the owners are concerned, I am likely now in 'Aunt Polly' mode, when Tom protests he didn't deserve to be whupped: "This makes up for all the times I should have whupped you and didn't."

 

Each stadium situation is different, but the one commonality I've noticed in those I've read up on is that the taxpayers get screwed--through various means such as paying for it outright, 'guaranteeing' a certain gate, or having the team/stadium ownership group lease the land for $1 a year ...

It is the politicians who agree to those deals. If the taxpayers are getting screwed then they should take it out on them at the ballot box.

[moonslav59]

You're right, of course. And as far as the owners are concerned, I am likely now in 'Aunt Polly' mode, when Tom protests he didn't deserve to be whupped: "This makes up for all the times I should have whupped you and didn't."

 

Each stadium situation is different, but the one commonality I've noticed in those I've read up on is that the taxpayers get screwed--through various means such as paying for it outright, 'guaranteeing' a certain gate, or having the team/stadium ownership group lease the land for $1 a year ...

 

Often, the city ends up having to deal with the defunct stadium after it has outlived its usefulness.

 

The voters, here in Houston, voted to demolish the old Astrodome, yet it still stands nearly a decade later.

[Elktonnick]

It is the politicians who agree to those deals. If the taxpayers are getting screwed then they should take it out on them at the ballot box.

 

Baltimore is a shithole. Losing population, corrupt politicians etc. They only thing it has going for it is the Orioles and Ravens both of whom are playing in State owned stadiums. When the Colts left, the state bent over backward to get a team back. If it weren't for the Orioles and Ravens, Baltimore's Inner Harbor would be a ghost town and the city looking like more of a war zone than it already is.

[moonslav59]

Baltimore is a shithole. Losing population, corrupt politicians etc. They only thing it has going for it is the Orioles and Ravens both of whom are playing in State owned stadiums. When the Colts left, the state bent over backward to get a team back. If it weren't for the Orioles and Ravens, Baltimore's Inner Harbor would be a ghost town and the city looking like more of a war zone than it already is.

 

Fake news. Here are some alternative facts...

[Elktonnick]

Fake news. Here are some alternative facts...

You mean Baltimore is not a s*** hole and the politicians are not corrupt. Who knew? BTW when was the last time you were in Charm City?

[moonslav59]

You mean Baltimore is not a s*** hole and the politicians are not corrupt. Who knew? BTW when was the last time you were in Charm City?

 

Yes, no and about a year ago.

[Elktonnick]

Yes, no and about a year ago.

Catherine Pugh former mayor three years Federal Prison fraud, Shelia Dixon former mayor indicted for stealing funds from the needy. Marilyn Mosley current Baltimore State Attorney indicted federal fraud charges, I could go on but all have to do is Check Baltimore WBFF recent story on Baltimore's grim history of corruption.

After retiring from the foreign service I spent 17 years in a senior position in Maryland State Government.. Baltimore is a shithole. And only getting worse.

[jad]

It is the politicians who agree to those deals. If the taxpayers are getting screwed then they should take it out on them at the ballot box.

 

Problem is by then, it's often too late. Not sure what the stats are when voters actually get to vote on stadium proposals, but I think they generally? or very often? vote against.

 

I did finally find an article on referenda on stadiums, subsidies, improvements, etc.: I quote only one sentence in the conclusion:

 

" The retrospective evidence about the economic impact of professional sports teams and facilities on

local economies suggests that at best they have no economic impact and, as much recent evidence

shows, at worst they have a negative economic impact."

[Elktonnick]

Problem is by then, it's often too late. Not sure what the stats are when voters actually get to vote on stadium proposals, but I think they generally? or very often? vote against.

 

I did finally find an article on referenda on stadiums, subsidies, improvements, etc.: I quote only one sentence in the conclusion:

 

" The retrospective evidence about the economic impact of professional sports teams and facilities on

local economies suggests that at best they have no economic impact and, as much recent evidence

shows, at worst they have a negative economic impact."

I think it depends on the city. Some communities vote for them, some do not. In St Pete's Fl. case I can understand why they don't. In Maryland's case, I understand why they did. Baltimore is a disaster. They felt they had to to save the city. But the corruption, incompetence and crime is too overwhelming. I have been in third world cities that aren't as bad.

[notin]

Often, the city ends up having to deal with the defunct stadium after it has outlived its usefulness.

 

The voters, here in Houston, voted to demolish the old Astrodome, yet it still stands nearly a decade later.

 

Hey at least you guys enjoyed the Astrdome. In Chicago, we’re still paying off land for an Olympic village and we never even hosted the Olympics!!!

[notin]

So the owners want an international draft badly and presented 3 options to the union. One of them “international draft and no more free agent compensation.” Another one was to set a date in the future and if an international draft could not be worked out, re-open the entire CBA.

 

The players countered with a fourth option - basically a combo of these two. If we can’t work out whatever needs to be worked out for an international draft by a certain date, re-instate draft pick compensation. Sounds reasonable.

 

The owners walked away without discussion.

 

It’s like the owners realized the union was willing to work with them and decided that was just not acceptable…

[moonslav59]

Catherine Pugh former mayor three years Federal Prison fraud, Shelia Dixon former mayor indicted for stealing funds from the needy. Marilyn Mosley current Baltimore State Attorney indicted federal fraud charges, I could go on but all have to do is Check Baltimore WBFF recent story on Baltimore's grim history of corruption.

After retiring from the foreign service I spent 17 years in a senior position in Maryland State Government.. Baltimore is a shithole. And only getting worse.

 

I agreed on the corrupt claim, yet a list like yours could be complied on ever big city.

 

Two of my best friends live in Baltimore. They love it, and I think it's not much different from other large cities. Sure, it has big problems, as does much of the world.

[moonslav59]

So the owners want an international draft badly and presented 3 options to the union. One of them “international draft and no more free agent compensation.” Another one was to set a date in the future and if an international draft could not be worked out, re-open the entire CBA.

 

The players countered with a fourth option - basically a combo of these two. If we can’t work out whatever needs to be worked out for an international draft by a certain date, re-instate draft pick compensation. Sounds reasonable.

 

The owners walked away without discussion.

 

It’s like the owners realized the union was willing to work with them and decided that was just not acceptable…

 

Again, I can't see this issue holding up a deal.

 

I think a deal gets done in time to save 162 games. (Today?)

[mvp 78]

Yes, but when the players give something to support them (the supposed 'millionaires'), the league (the 'billionaires') will make a great show of matching it. If the league really gave a crap about the local community, they would insist on paying property taxes on their ballparks.

 

The billionaires should be paying these workers their full salaries regardless. They are locking the players out and in effect locking out these other workers.

[Elktonnick]

I agreed on the corrupt claim, yet a list like yours could be complied on ever big city.

 

Two of my best friends live in Baltimore. They love it, and I think it's not much different from other large cities. Sure, it has big problems, as does much of the world.

Baltimore's corruption is endemic. No city has its record of persistent corruption. Baltimore is one of Americas most dangerous cities. Its violent crime rate is over 300 percent above the national average. I used to regularly attend meetings downtown. The route in and out of the office was through whole city blocks of abandoned and dilapidated row houses. I used the same driving techniques as I used in war torn San Salvador during the civil war there in the late eighties.

Look at how Baltimore keeps losing population every year as further proof that it is a shithole.

[mvp 78]

I look forward to this calm and reasonable discussion about Baltimore, when all I know about Baltimore is the tv show the Wire and the truck stop that once had Burger Time.

[Elktonnick]

I look forward to this calm and reasonable discussion about Baltimore, when all I know about Baltimore is the tv show the Wire and the truck stop that once had Burger Time.

The original purpose of raising Baltimore was to point out why the state funded the Ravens and Orioles Stadiums.

 

BTW a friend of mine recently sold his townhouse located a short walk from Camden Yards, Ravens Stadium and the inner harbor after being mugged twice in a month outside his home while walking his dog. I.told him to get a bigger dog but his wife had had enough.

[jad]

I'm sorry for your experience and esp. that of your friend. I've never been to Baltimore, but one of my best friends grew up there, went to grad school at Hopkins and LOVES it. So much for anecdotes. I've lived in 3 major us cities NOLA, NYC (in the 70s, before it was gentrified) and now LA. And everything you say about Baltimore I was warned about of those places with equally hideous tales. I have never had a problem with anyone, even though I take public transportation and walk alone at all hours of the night (well, less so these days!). I confess, that's due to a number of factors: I'm male; I do not frequent bars; pure blind luck; plus (I'm told) I look like I'm a borderline street-person.

[notin]

Baltimore's corruption is endemic. No city has its record of persistent corruption. Baltimore is one of Americas most dangerous cities. Its violent crime rate is over 300 percent above the national average. I used to regularly attend meetings downtown. The route in and out of the office was through whole city blocks of abandoned and dilapidated row houses. I used the same driving techniques as I used in war torn San Salvador during the civil war there in the late eighties.

Look at how Baltimore keeps losing population every year as further proof that it is a shithole.

 

Chicago in the house!!