10/22 ALCS Game 6 @ Astros

[moonslav59]

I know some on here think this is the pulse of Red Sox Nation, but I can tell you after listening to many talk shows from Maine to Boston that it is not. Cora has been called brilliant, and a genius on here, but I think for someone who is supposed to that sure hasn’t shown that, and had a rough series against Houston starting with pitching Sale in game 1. Of course hindsight is 20/20, but if EO would have started game one they might have started out with a 3-0 series lead. Pitching Perez with. 1 run lead was like waving the white flag. I keep saying that all this lefty vs lefty thing is overrated, and all I can say is how did it work in this series with Perez, and Sale? Sale pitched a good game last time out, but was left in to long to face a batter that had already gone 2-2 against him. Lefty on lefty. He wasted bullets by EO in tied game, which I think affected him yesterday, and saved Whitlock for next season. Danny f’n Santana just being on the roster was mind boggling, and Cora actually pinch hit him for somebody. I could go on, and on, but Cora did not cause the bats to go silent, but he did not have a series of someone with a brilliant, and genius status. The talk shows said not.

 

We get your position. Most disagree.

 

Your white flag hoisting cliche is getting old.

[moonslav59]

Every year, every playoff team but one sees its season end with a loss. Only a few of those can say it was a great run. The up-and-down '21 Red Sox had multiple great runs -- until they stopped scoring them. Thankfully, no one single play blew the pennant, so future Fox telecasts won't ever have time to replay three games worth of batters bouncing sinkers, popping up heaters, and whiffing on dirtballs.

 

The manager didn't swing a bat the entire postseason. He wasn't a genius when they slammed salamis, or a bum when they left dozens on base. But for anyone who thinks pitching moves are to blame, here are some stats on the two bullpens in this ALCS (using ERA, even though it excuses a pitcher's own errors, like Robles throwing away a pick-off): four Red Sox relievers had ERAs over 10 and five others were 4.50 or gave up late home runs. Houston had three relievers with ERAs of 0.00, and five others at 3.00 or lower.

 

Nope! It was the bats and not scoring first!

 

That has been proven, already.

 

sarcasm alert

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Every year, every playoff team but one sees its season end with a loss. Only a few of those can say it was a great run. The up-and-down '21 Red Sox had multiple great runs -- until they stopped scoring them. Thankfully, no one single play blew the pennant, so future Fox telecasts won't ever have time to replay three games worth of batters bouncing sinkers, popping up heaters, and whiffing on dirtballs.

 

The manager didn't swing a bat the entire postseason. He wasn't a genius when they slammed salamis, or a bum when they left dozens on base. But for anyone who thinks pitching moves are to blame, here are some stats on the two bullpens in this ALCS (using ERA, even though it excuses a pitcher's own errors, like Robles throwing away a pick-off): four Red Sox relievers had ERAs over 10 and five others were 4.50 or gave up late home runs. Houston had three relievers with ERAs of 0.00, and five others at 3.00 or lower.

 

It's amazing what a couple of fans on this thread post. When SOX pitchers hold the opposition to 2 runs or less(very rare) these few fans post "what a great job our pitching staff did." When the opposition's pitcher holds the SOX to 2 runs or less, they post "our hitters really suck."

To them only great pitching can come from the SOX.

[moonslav59]

I’m not saying that Cora doesn’t, and shouldn’t get any credit, but I just think it’s over the top to say he’s a genius, or brilliant, and have only herd that on here.

 

Okay, maybe "genius" and "brilliant" might be a poor choice of words or exaggerations by some (or different views on what those words mean,) but your white flag comments are just as extreme on the other end of the spectrum.

[NewSox]

How many of you thought this team would go nowhere this year? I did. I thought we would be fighting the Orioles for last. Ok, maybe not that bad, but I didn't see a way we could finish better than 3rd. I thought this was a rebuilding year, and I'm sure not many of you would have thought that the Red Sox would be one of the last 4 teams standing in October. So, in my book, this season was a success. Does it suck to lose a series after leading 2-1 and looking so unstoppable in Games 2 and 3? Absolutely. But, I remember saying last weekend that I was content no matter what happened because I didn't think we would be here. This season for me was a win, and unless you had the Red Sox winning the World Series in March, I suggest you look at it the same way, and take this season for what it was: A magic carpet ride that just ran out of gas at the end.

 

Amen Thunder

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

How many of you thought this team would go nowhere this year? I did. I thought we would be fighting the Orioles for last. Ok, maybe not that bad, but I didn't see a way we could finish better than 3rd. I thought this was a rebuilding year, and I'm sure not many of you would have thought that the Red Sox would be one of the last 4 teams standing in October. So, in my book, this season was a success. Does it suck to lose a series after leading 2-1 and looking so unstoppable in Games 2 and 3? Absolutely. But, I remember saying last weekend that I was content no matter what happened because I didn't think we would be here. This season for me was a win, and unless you had the Red Sox winning the World Series in March, I suggest you look at it the same way, and take this season for what it was: A magic carpet ride that just ran out of gas at the end.

 

 

The SOX took 'nowhere' further than it's ever been.

[Bellhorn04]

It's amazing what a couple of fans on this thread post. When SOX pitchers hold the opposition to 2 runs or less(very rare) these few fans post "what a great job our pitching staff did." When the opposition's pitcher holds the SOX to 2 runs or less, they post "our hitters really suck."

To them only great pitching can come from the SOX.

 

Agreed. It's like baseball is a tough game for a lot of people to understand.

[Bellhorn04]

We did suck, but the other team does play a role in the outcome, too.

 

Some of those balls we swung at were very nice breaking balls.

 

Newsflash: many of the games we won, we swung at many balls in the dirt.

 

That was not the only factor. It was probably not the deciding one, either.

 

We dropped a fly ball that allowed that all important first run to score.

 

Even the double play ball hit to Schwarber could have been an out at home- possibly no 2nd run.

 

Ottavino sucked.

 

Our bats sucked worst of all. I never said they didn't.

 

BATS SUCKED!!!!

 

Batters sucked!

 

 

The bottom line is that over the last 3 games the Astros figured out a great game plan for how to pitch to us and their pitchers were on their games.

 

Astros pitching turned the series around and won it.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

IMHO, this SOX team did more with less than any SOX team I can remember.

[Old Red]

How many of you thought this team would go nowhere this year? I did. I thought we would be fighting the Orioles for last. Ok, maybe not that bad, but I didn't see a way we could finish better than 3rd. I thought this was a rebuilding year, and I'm sure not many of you would have thought that the Red Sox would be one of the last 4 teams standing in October. So, in my book, this season was a success. Does it suck to lose a series after leading 2-1 and looking so unstoppable in Games 2 and 3? Absolutely. But, I remember saying last weekend that I was content no matter what happened because I didn't think we would be here. This season for me was a win, and unless you had the Red Sox winning the World Series in March, I suggest you look at it the same way, and take this season for what it was: A magic carpet ride that just ran out of gas at the end.

 

I don’t know why so many on here thought this wasn’t going to be a good team this year. Based on last year when the team sucked?They had a good 2-5 in the order with Duggie, Boggey, Raffy, and JD, and they picked up some spare parts. E Rod was coming back, and Sale was to at some point to go with EO, so that doesn’t sound like a bad team to me. You have to throw 2020 right out the window as a season when JD lost his binky ipad, and pretty much quit.

 

This wasn’t a magical carpet ride. 1967 was a magical carpet ride.

[moonslav59]

The bottom line is that over the last 3 games the Astros figured out a great game plan for how to pitch to us and their pitchers were on their games.

 

Astros pitching turned the series around and won it.

 

That's how I see it.

 

Sure, if our batters had a better approach, we'd likely have scored more, but probably not enough. We'll never know.

 

It's like the chicken and egg argument.

[Thunder]

I don’t know why so many on here thought this wasn’t going to be a good team this year. Based on last year when the team sucked?They had a good 2-5 in the order with Duggie, Boggey, Raffy, and JD, and they picked up some spare parts. E Rod was coming back, and Sale was to at some point to go with EO, so that doesn’t sound like a bad team to me. You have to throw 2020 right out the window as a season when JD lost his binky ipad, and pretty much quit.

 

This wasn’t a magical carpet ride. 1967 was a magical carpet ride.

 

Don't cry because it's over; smile because it happened

[Maxbialystock]

I don’t know why so many on here thought this wasn’t going to be a good team this year. Based on last year when the team sucked?They had a good 2-5 in the order with Duggie, Boggey, Raffy, and JD, and they picked up some spare parts. E Rod was coming back, and Sale was to at some point to go with EO, so that doesn’t sound like a bad team to me. You have to throw 2020 right out the window as a season when JD lost his binky ipad, and pretty much quit.

 

This wasn’t a magical carpet ride. 1967 was a magical carpet ride.

 

Nice try, but it just won't fly.

 

The Sox went from 108-54 in 2018 to 84-78 in 2019 to 24-36 in 2020. From that great 2018 team they lost or traded the entire outfield of Beni, JBJ, and Mookie and one of the best in MLB whose combined WAR was 16.9 (!!!!!), a pretty decent 1b combo of Moreland and Pearce (combined WAR 2.1), starters Price and Porcello (WAR's of 4.4 and 3.1), closer Kimbrel (WAR 2.3), starter Wright (1.7), and reliever Joe Kelly.

 

Bloom did keep Bogey, Devers, and JDM--and catcher Vazquez, but brought in or up a whole new outfield, first baseman, second baseman, three new starters (Perez, Richards, and Pivetta) whom no one else particularly wanted, and assorted relievers while keeping relievers Barnes and Brasier and starters Eovaldi and ERod--the latter having missed all of 2020 from covid and cardiomyelitis. Oh, and Sale was expected to return at some point, which turned out to be soon enough for 9 starts and 42.2 innings and a WAR of 1.0.

 

Any sensible appraisal of the 2021 Sox had to conclude it was a rebuilding year and not as good as the 84-78 Sox of 2019, which not only retained most of the 2018 team, but included a much-improved ERod and much-improved Devers.

 

That the Sox finished with 92 wins and then beat the Yankees and Cole in the wild card game and the AL best team Rays in the ALDS was an astounding accomplishment and completely unexpected.

 

And let's be fair. As always, the players get the lion's share of the credit. Bloom and Cora threw no pitches, swung no bats, and fielded nothing.

 

Nevertheless, it is abundantly clear Cora knew the right buttons to push, especially with respect to the pitching staff. Richards, for example, came in as a starter, was emasculated by not being allowed to doctor up his knuckle curve, became unreliable, then became a great, if short-lived, reliever, only in the end to be not good enough to make the ALDS roster. Perez followed a similar route. Eovaldi stayed good, but was definitely helped when Cora made Plawecki his regular catcher. Sale came back wonderfully until the wheels came off in October--except for his final game when he looked pretty darn good. Barnes was the world's greatest closer for the first half of the season, but got so bad he wasn't on the the postseason roster. Indeed, just about every single reliever--Ottavino, Brasier, DHernandez, Robles, Perez, et was inconsistent. The exception was Whitlock--until he gave up that hugely damaging dinger in the 8th inning of game 4 of the ALCS.

 

Indeed, during the second half of the season--and the postseason-- Cora brilliantly used five different pitchers--Valdez, Richards, Whitlock, Houck, and Pivetta--as long relievers to compensate for both weak starts and weak relievers.

 

He also had to "misuse" Kike, who had an amazing season, but, thanks to the abysmal situation at 2b, was forced to play there instead of CF where he was badly needed. Dalbec at first base was an error and strikeout machine for 2/3 of the season but finally showed some promise. Nevertheless, Cora correctly used Schwarber, a late addition, at 1b in the postseason, except when JDM was hurt.

 

In the final 10 days of the regular season, the Sox seemed to be out of it. They lost 3 straight at Fenway to the Yankees and 2 of 3 to the Orioles--and headed to the Nationals Ball Park with a real prospect of not making the postseason. The pitching was erratic and Cora couldn't use a DH. But the Sox swept the Nats in no small part because Cora played both Schwarber and JDM in all three games and somehow overcame the Sox somewhat erratic pitching. ERod and Houck both had good starts--5 innings each and 0 runs--but Ottavino, Barnes, Davis, et al tried to give the games back to the Nats. Then Sale bombed in game 3--2.1 innings, 2 runs--and Richards, who had been good earlier in relief, gave up 3 more runs.

 

The above is both too long and too short, but it's one shot at explaining why Cora is regarded by most knowledgeable Sox fans as having done an excellent job this year.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Maxbialystock

[Thunder]

The above is both too long and too short, but it's one shot at explaining why Cora is regarded by most knowledgeable Sox fans as having done an excellent job this year.

 

"Most" and "knowledgeable" being the operative words

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It's amazing what a couple of fans on this thread post. When SOX pitchers hold the opposition to 2 runs or less(very rare) these few fans post "what a great job our pitching staff did." When the opposition's pitcher holds the SOX to 2 runs or less, they post "our hitters really suck."

To them only great pitching can come from the SOX.

 

You lost me with that last line, because as much as a lot us disagree on all things Sox, I don't remember any posters saying our pitching was great this year or even this month (except when Houck was perfect in DC). Our starters were certainly solid for the most part in the postseason, and Eovaldi had some great moments battling the most murderous lineup in baseball. But the overall difference in the ALCS was that Houston's pitchers fared better against Boston's batters than the Sox staff did retiring Astro bats.

[cukes]

We get your position. Most disagree.

 

Your white flag hoisting cliche is getting old.

 

The fact is we got outplayed, out hit and out pitched by a better team, nobody at the beginning of this season expected us to he this far, myself included, thought maybe next year or 2023 we would be at the top, they did a great job with what they had, have to play the hand you are dealt and have to dance with the girl you came with, loaded with Yankee fans down here and I told them at the beginning they couldn't beat Houston, when we beat them it was super and shut them up till next season, let's hope we can make some right moves to improve and be tough next year, conjecture never solved anything

[moonslav59]

The bottom line is that over the last 3 games the Astros figured out a great game plan for how to pitch to us and their pitchers were on their games.

 

Astros pitching turned the series around and won it.

 

That's pretty much it, in a nutshell.

 

We can overanalyze all we want, but it was just 3 games.

 

No decisions or definitive judgements should be made solely on these 3 games. Sure, some of the wekanesses we showed in these 3 games were apparent all year long, so those are fair game.

[moonslav59]

IMHO, this SOX team did more with less than any SOX team I can remember.

 

That's true and one reason I think Cora is a very good manager. Not a genius. Not brilliant, but just plain very good.

 

(Bloom is very good, too.)

[moonslav59]

I don’t know why so many on here thought this wasn’t going to be a good team this year. Based on last year when the team sucked?They had a good 2-5 in the order with Duggie, Boggey, Raffy, and JD, and they picked up some spare parts. E Rod was coming back, and Sale was to at some point to go with EO, so that doesn’t sound like a bad team to me. You have to throw 2020 right out the window as a season when JD lost his binky ipad, and pretty much quit.

 

This wasn’t a magical carpet ride. 1967 was a magical carpet ride.

 

Last year's team was pathetic. Something like 65% of our pitching was from guys like Perez, Weber and dozens of scrubs.

We knew the budget was going to be fixed.

We knew we had over a dozen 40 man roster slots that needed much improvement.

We had some hopes in guys like Pivetta, Arroyo, Dalbec, Renfroe, Cordero, Marwin and others, but a lot of "ifs and or buts."

Whitlock was a "magic carper ride" as was Renfroe to some extent and the hot streak by Dalbec. ERod and Sale's returns were not certain, at least as their former selves.

 

That being said, I predicted 86 wins before we signed anyone. I loved the Kike signing. My biggest reason for having so much hope going into this year was more about how the other AL teams looked. From day one, I pointed out that every AL team had major weaknesses. I think that rang true.

 

It looks like the Astros had the least of all.

 

I wasn't a Sox fan in '67, but from what I know, that season was more magical than 2021 and 2013. We can agree on that.

[moonslav59]

Nice try, but it just won't fly.

 

The Sox went from 108-54 in 2018 to 84-78 in 2019 to 24-36 in 2020. From that great 2018 team they lost or traded the entire outfield of Beni, JBJ, and Mookie and one of the best in MLB whose combined WAR was 16.9 (!!!!!), a pretty decent 1b combo of Moreland and Pearce (combined WAR 2.1), starters Price and Porcello (WAR's of 4.4 and 3.1), closer Kimbrel (WAR 2.3), starter Wright (1.7), and reliever Joe Kelly.

 

Bloom did keep Bogey, Devers, and JDM--and catcher Vazquez, but brought in or up a whole new outfield, first baseman, second baseman, three new starters (Perez, Richards, and Pivetta) whom no one else particularly wanted, and assorted relievers while keeping relievers Barnes and Brasier and starters Eovaldi and ERod--the latter having missed all of 2020 from covid and cardiomyelitis. Oh, and Sale was expected to return at some point, which turned out to be soon enough for 9 starts and 42.2 innings and a WAR of 1.0.

 

Any sensible appraisal of the 2021 Sox had to conclude it was a rebuilding year and not as good as the 84-78 Sox of 2019, which not only retained most of the 2018 team, but included a much-improved ERod and much-improved Devers.

 

That the Sox finished with 92 wins and then beat the Yankees and Cole in the wild card game and the AL best team Rays in the ALDS was an astounding accomplishment and completely unexpected.

 

And let's be fair. As always, the players get the lion's share of the credit. Bloom and Cora threw no pitches, swung no bats, and fielded nothing.

 

Nevertheless, it is abundantly clear Cora knew the right buttons to push, especially with respect to the pitching staff. Richards, for example, came in as a starter, was emasculated by not being allowed to doctor up his knuckle curve, became unreliable, then became a great, if short-lived, reliever, only in the end to be not good enough to make the ALDS roster. Perez followed a similar route. Eovaldi stayed good, but was definitely helped when Cora made Plawecki his regular catcher. Sale came back wonderfully until the wheels came off in October--except for his final game when he looked pretty darn good. Barnes was the world's greatest closer for the first half of the season, but got so bad he wasn't on the the postseason roster. Indeed, just about every single reliever--Ottavino, Brasier, DHernandez, Robles, Perez, et was inconsistent. The exception was Whitlock--until he gave up that hugely damaging dinger in the 8th inning of game 4 of the ALCS.

 

Indeed, during the second half of the season--and the postseason-- Cora brilliantly used five different pitchers--Valdez, Richards, Whitlock, Houck, and Pivetta--as long relievers to compensate for both weak starts and weak relievers.

 

He also had to "misuse" Kike, who had an amazing season, but, thanks to the abysmal situation at 2b, was forced to play there instead of CF where he was badly needed. Dalbec at first base was an error and strikeout machine for 2/3 of the season but finally showed some promise. Nevertheless, Cora correctly used Schwarber, a late addition, at 1b in the postseason, except when JDM was hurt.

 

In the final 10 days of the regular season, the Sox seemed to be out of it. They lost 3 straight at Fenway to the Yankees and 2 of 3 to the Orioles--and headed to the Nationals Ball Park with a real prospect of not making the postseason. The pitching was erratic and Cora couldn't use a DH. But the Sox swept the Nats in no small part because Cora played both Schwarber and JDM in all three games and somehow overcame the Sox somewhat erratic pitching. ERod and Houck both had good starts--5 innings each and 0 runs--but Ottavino, Barnes, Davis, et al tried to give the games back to the Nats. Then Sale bombed in game 3--2.1 innings, 2 runs--and Richards, who had been good earlier in relief, gave up 3 more runs.

 

The above is both too long and too short, but it's one shot at explaining why Cora is regarded by most knowledgeable Sox fans as having done an excellent job this year.

 

Brilliant and genius!

 

Way to go, max!

[Old Red]

Last year's team was pathetic. Something like 65% of our pitching was from guys like Perez, Weber and dozens of scrubs.

We knew the budget was going to be fixed.

We knew we had over a dozen 40 man roster slots that needed much improvement.

We had some hopes in guys like Pivetta, Arroyo, Dalbec, Renfroe, Cordero, Marwin and others, but a lot of "ifs and or buts."

Whitlock was a "magic carper ride" as was Renfroe to some extent and the hot streak by Dalbec. ERod and Sale's returns were not certain, at least as their former selves.

 

That being said, I predicted 86 wins before we signed anyone. I loved the Kike signing. My biggest reason for having so much hope going into this year was more about how the other AL teams looked. From day one, I pointed out that every AL team had major weaknesses. I think that rang true.

 

It looks like the Astros had the least of all.

 

I wasn't a Sox fan in '67, but from what I know, that season was more magical than 2021 and 2013. We can agree on that.

 

The best part of that 1967 team was that it was mostly home grown.

[Old Red]

Brilliant and genius!

 

Way to go, max!

 

Now I’ve heard it all when you call Max brilliant, and genius, so that just demeans saying it about Cora. Max just likes to polish a turd.

[moonslav59]

The best part of that 1967 team was that it was mostly home grown.

 

All teams were back then. It was called indentured servitude.

[moonslav59]

Now I’ve heard it all when you call Max brilliant, and genius, so that just demeans saying it about Cora. Max just likes to polish a turd.

 

Can you prove that?

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

You lost me with that last line, because as much as a lot us disagree on all things Sox, I don't remember any posters saying our pitching was great this year or even this month (except when Houck was perfect in DC). Our starters were certainly solid for the most part in the postseason, and Eovaldi had some great moments battling the most murderous lineup in baseball. But the overall difference in the ALCS was that Houston's pitchers fared better against Boston's batters than the Sox staff did retiring Astro bats.

 

Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to those occasions when SOX pitchers did pitch well.

Edited October 23, 2021 by SPLENDIDSPLINTER

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Last year's team was pathetic. Something like 65% of our pitching was from guys like Perez, Weber and dozens of scrubs.

We knew the budget was going to be fixed.

We knew we had over a dozen 40 man roster slots that needed much improvement.

We had some hopes in guys like Pivetta, Arroyo, Dalbec, Renfroe, Cordero, Marwin and others, but a lot of "ifs and or buts."

Whitlock was a "magic carper ride" as was Renfroe to some extent and the hot streak by Dalbec. ERod and Sale's returns were not certain, at least as their former selves.

 

That being said, I predicted 86 wins before we signed anyone. I loved the Kike signing. My biggest reason for having so much hope going into this year was more about how the other AL teams looked. From day one, I pointed out that every AL team had major weaknesses. I think that rang true.

 

It looks like the Astros had the least of all.

 

I wasn't a Sox fan in '67, but from what I know, that season was more magical than 2021 and 2013. We can agree on that.

 

I believe that this year's version of the SOX had more obvious problems than the '67 version. This year's team also won more PO games than the '67 team. So I'll stick with my opinion that this team did more with less than any SOX team in my memory.

Btw, both this year's team and the '67 team won 92 games during the regular season.

Edited October 23, 2021 by SPLENDIDSPLINTER

[Old Red]

I believe that this year's version of the SOX had more obvious problems than the '67 version. This year's team also won more PO games than the '67 team. So I'll stick with my opinion that this team did more with less than any SOX team in my memory.

Btw, both this year's team and the '67 team won 92 games during the regular season.

 

The 1967 team were pretty much a very young team with Yaz being the old guy at 28, and had to face a guy named Bob Gibson. They didn’t have a Raffy, JD, or Bogey going into that season, or. EO, or E Rod for that matter, but you can ride with your team, and I’ll ride with mine.

[Old Red]

The 1967 team were pretty much a very young team with Yaz being the old guy at 28, and had to face a guy named Bob Gibson. They didn’t have a Raffy, JD, or Bogey going into that season, or. EO, or E Rod for that matter, but you can ride with your team, and I’ll ride with mine.

 

And yes I’d take Dick Williams over Cora.

[Bellhorn04]

The Impossible Dream season is a little over-glorified, IMHO. It was a great season, but they didn't win the Series, and the succeeding years of 1968-1971 were nothing special at all.

[moonslav59]

The Impossible Dream season is a little over-glorified, IMHO. It was a great season, but they didn't win the Series, and the succeeding years of 1968-1971 were nothing special at all.

 

Isn't the fact that they sucked before and weren't too go afterwards make that season even more special or "impossible?"