The Official 2021 ALCS Thread

[d-money]

If the pen was as bad as you're making out, we never would have got past the Yankees and Rays.

 

Stros are better hitting team. Also keep in mind that Cora was trying to get 6 outs from whitlock.

[mvp 78]

Never heard a single poster mention us getting Graveman or lamenting the Astros getting him over us.

 

Just sayin'.

 

Never heard a single poster suggest Robles or Davis either.

[d-money]

I'm more than happy to concede that. But then you need to concede that the Sox hitting died after the 1st inning. They were 0 for 9 with RISP. They failed to bring Bogey home after his one out double, ditto Arroyo after his one out triple.

 

The Sox bullpen, meanwhile, gave up 2 runs in 4 inning--and those two runs were scored off arguably the Sox two best pitchers, Whitlock and Eovaldi.

 

Come on dude the sox BP wasn’t gonna hold a 2-1 lead and you’re asking whitlock to get 6 outs. The way that game was going with the missed chances you knew it was not gonna end well. You can trust this pen if they have done their job at times. They needed that extra run or two.

[Bellhorn04]

One more time. The Sox have not won a single game in the postseason while scoring less than 6 runs. Last night that scored 2 runs in 9 innings. Last night they were 0 for 9 with RISP. Last night the Astros bullpen was excellent.

 

None of which was anything to do with momentum.

[mvp 78]

All 3 of you are full of it. It's like a shitsnowball LOL. The game was not over going into the 9th unless you think all of a sudden Eovaldi is a bum.

 

How does the recency effect affect momentum?

[Old Red]

Of course Perez wasn't the best choice to stem the tide. Far from it. His primary purpose was to get Eovaldi off the mound. Secondarily, I think Perez presence was an admission that the tide had already washed over the Sox in this game. The Astros bullpen dominated the Sox lineup, who were 0 for 9 with RISP. The game was really lost by Whitlock when he gave up that dinger to Altuve in the 8th to tie the game. And Eovaldi made it worse by throwing four straight fastballs to Correa to lead off the 9th.

 

What you are saying is either Cora screwed up, and brought in Perez, or Cora gave up, and brought in Perez. Either way it makes Cora look bad. Way to go. For once I agree to with you.

[Maxbialystock]

Why do you keep saying that the primary purpose of whoever relieved EO was not to stop anymore runs from scoring in A ONE RUN game, and I repeat a 1 run game, but only to get EO out of the game. Did you hear Cora say that, or is that just your wrong interpretation again. You already said Perez wasn’t the best choice to stem the tide, so what you are really saying is that Cora made a bad decision bring in Perez.

 

Just my opinion based on how I felt at the time. Perez had given up 0 runs in 1.2 innings of the postseason, but I had zero confidence in him, especially after the Astros lineup had tied the game off the Sox arguably best reliever Whitlock and gone ahead after scoring a run off the Sox ace. So I concluded Perez was sent out mainly to get Eovaldi out of the game so he could be ready to start Friday and maybe, though I had my doubts, to get the 3d out.

[mvp 78]

What you are saying is either Cora screwed up, and brought in Perez, or Cora gave up, and brought in Perez. Either way it makes Cora look bad. Way to go. For once I agree to with you.

 

Cora made the right move, the players just didn't perform.

[Bellhorn04]

Just my opinion based on how I felt at the time. Perez had given up 0 runs in 1.2 innings of the postseason, but I had zero confidence in him, especially after the Astros lineup had tied the game off the Sox arguably best reliever Whitlock and gone ahead after scoring a run off the Sox ace. So I concluded Perez was sent out mainly to get Eovaldi out of the game so he could be ready to start Friday and maybe, though I had my doubts, to get the 3d out.

 

Perez was brought in to get Eovaldi out of the game and because it was a lefty hitter coming up and Perez is normally good against lefties.

[Bellhorn04]

Cora made the right move, the players just didn't perform.

 

Yep, and the stupid umpire didn't perform.

[Maxbialystock]

What you are saying is either Cora screwed up, and brought in Perez, or Cora gave up, and brought in Perez. Either way it makes Cora look bad. Way to go. For once I agree to with you.

 

For you to be right--that sending Perez out was absolutely the wrong call--I think you need to assert how someone else could have gotten that 3d out.

 

More importantly, how the Sox were going to win a game when they were down 3-2, had not scored since the 1st inning, and have not won a postseason game while scoring less than 6 runs.

[Bellhorn04]

For you to be right--that sending Perez out was absolutely the wrong call--I think you need to assert how someone else could have gotten that 3d out.

 

More importantly, how the Sox were going to win a game when they were down 3-2, had not scored since the 1st inning, and have not won a postseason game while scoring less than 6 runs.

 

Well, we did beat the Yankees 6-2, so we didn't actually NEED 6 runs. Another odd argument.

[Maxbialystock]

Yep, and the stupid umpire didn't perform.

 

Yep all his fault, and the fact that Eovaldi served up a double to the leadoff Astro hitter in the 9th has no bearing on the game outcome. To me throwing four straight fastballs to Correa was just plain dumb. When he and Vazquez finally wised up and started throwing other stuff, they got two K's.

[moonslav59]

I'm more than happy to concede that. But then you need to concede that the Sox hitting died after the 1st inning. They were 0 for 9 with RISP. They failed to bring Bogey home after his one out double, ditto Arroyo after his one out triple.

 

The Sox bullpen, meanwhile, gave up 2 runs in 4 inning--and those two runs were scored off arguably the Sox two best pitchers, Whitlock and Eovaldi.

 

We had more chances than the Astros until late in the game.

 

PAs with men on base

 

Inning

1:

0-Astros-They scored on a solo HR.

2-Red Sox- We hit a HR with a man on (scoring opportunity). We then got a man on with an error.

 

2:

2- With 2 outs, they got a GB single, a BB and WP

3- With no outs we got a walk. With 1 out another walk

 

3:

0- 1-2-3 inning

2- We got a 1 out BB.

 

4:

3- They got a leadoff BB and then 1-2-3

2- We got a 1 out triple and nothing. (More of an opportunity than HOU's 4th inning)

 

5:

0- HOU 1-2-3 inning

2- 1 out dbl by Bogey

 

6:

1- 2 out single

0- Our first 1-2-3 inning

 

7:

1- HOU with a 2 out singlr

0- our 2nd 1-2-3

 

8:

1- Lead off HR, single, then DP

1- 2 out BB

 

9-

Too many to count

2- two singles with 2 outs

 

Only the 6th and 7th innings were no runner innings. We had more chances that them in the first 8 innings.

12 to 8

(Even the 4th inning, where they had 3 batters up with a man on first- we had 2 batters up with a man on 3rd, and I gave them a 3-2 edge that inning.)

 

Again, we just failed to bunch up our hits and walks.

 

[dgalehouse]

Perez was brought in to get Eovaldi out of the game and because it was a lefty hitter coming up and Perez is normally good against lefties.

 

Exactly. Perez' entire job was to get Brantley out. He didn't do it. But Cora was not giving up on the game when he brought him in. He obviously thought he was the best option against Brantley. The Sox have a rather mediocre pen. Cora has done a fine job of mixing and matching them up to get the job done. Sometimes it doesn't work. Last night was one of them. But it was not Cora's fault.

[Bellhorn04]

Yep all his fault, and the fact that Eovaldi served up a double to the leadoff Astro hitter in the 9th has no bearing on the game outcome.

 

Of course the double mattered. But striking out a guy for the third out and having the ump blow it mattered plenty too. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

[Bellhorn04]

Exactly. Perez' entire job was to get Brantley out. He didn't do it. But Cora was not giving up on the game when he brought him in. He obviously thought he was the best option against Brantley. The Sox have a rather mediocre pen. Cora has done a fine job of mixing and matching them up to get the job done. Sometimes it doesn't work. Last night was one of them. But it was not Cora's fault.

 

100%.

[Maxbialystock]

Well, we did beat the Yankees 6-2, so we didn't actually NEED 6 runs. Another odd argument.

 

Yep. Three runs might have been enough against the Yankees. But the Rays and Astros are both better hitting ball clubs and against the Sox pitching have scored 5, 6, 4, 5, 4, 5, 3, and 9 runs. And, as good as the Sox lineup has been, they were shut out once by the Rays and last night held to 2 runs.

[Bellhorn04]

Yep. Three runs might have been enough against the Yankees. But the Rays and Astros are both better hitting ball clubs and against the Sox pitching have scored 5, 6, 4, 5, 4, 5, 3, and 9 runs.

 

We beat Houston 12-3 in Game 3. Didn't need 6 in that one either.

[mvp 78]

Yep, and the stupid umpire didn't perform.

 

He's apparently a really great guy tho!

[dgalehouse]

At some point in the 1975 World Series , a reporter asked Sox' lefty , Bill Lee ; " What do you think of the Series so far? " Lee gave a one word answer , " Tied." Same as now. It goes without saying that it's a big game tonight.

[Old Red]

For you to be right--that sending Perez out was absolutely the wrong call--I think you need to assert how someone else could have gotten that 3d out.

 

More importantly, how the Sox were going to win a game when they were down 3-2, had not scored since the 1st inning, and have not won a postseason game while scoring less than 6 runs.

 

Max you said the game was over when Whitlock gave up the HR, so why did Cora waste his best pitcher EO if the game had already been lost according to you. You already said that Perez was not the best option to stem the tide, so you you already answered your question that bringing in Perez was the wrong call, and Cora made it. Once again I agree with you.

[Bellhorn04]

He's apparently a really great guy tho!

 

If they're not going to use robot umps, then Laz and Angel should not be HP umps for playoff games.

[Maxbialystock]

100%.

 

Heck, I agree with dgalehouse too. In fact, my entire goal in this discussion was to defend Cora because I do think he made some great decisions to give the Sox a chance to win when the lineup was just moribund.

 

When he pulled Pivetta, I had expected to leave him in, but then realized Pivetta was facing the Astros lineup for the 3d time. Plus Taylor and Ottavino did a good job in the 6th and Whitlock in the 7th. Sending him out for the 8th made complete sense to me, and expecting Eovaldi to close the game out in the 9th did too. But Whitlock gave up the dinger to Altuve and Eovaldi the double to Correa.

 

But, most of all and completely out of Cora's control, the lineup just got shut down after the 1st inning. Credit the Astros bullpen.

[notin]

If they're not going to use robot umps, then Laz and Angel should not be HP umps for playoff games.

 

Or any other MLB game, for that matter...

[YastrzemskI]

The game was over when Altuve tied the game in the 8th? Really? Did you just stop watching the game at that point?

Woke up to see some interesting takes this morning.

[Old Red]

The game was over when Altuve tied the game in the 8th? Really? Did you just stop watching the game at that point?

Woke up to see some interesting takes this morning.

 

According to Max the game was over at that point, and then he said the primary reason Perez got put into the game was to just get EO out of the game, and not to give up anymore runs.

[Maxbialystock]

Max you said the game was over when Whitlock gave up the HR, so why did Cora waste his best pitcher EO if the game had already been lost according to you. You already said that Perez was not the best option to stem the tide, so you you already answered your question that bringing in Perez was the wrong call, and Cora made it. Once again I agree with you.

 

Well, I thought at the time the momentum had already shifted to the Astros because their bullpen was so effective.

 

Nevertheless, it was still a tie game, plus he had planned all along to use Eovaldi because last night was midway between Eovaldi's last start, last Saturday, and presumed next start, this Friday. That move, which made sense, turned sour when Eovaldi foolishly threw four straight fastballs to Correa, who led off the 9th with a double. Right guy, right inning, dumb pitching. When he mixed in breaking balls, he got two K's, but then came that single--after those presumed strikes were called balls--off a splitter a little up in the zone.

 

You want to make this game outcome all about what you think are Cora's mistakes, but I'm certain the real problem was that the Astros bullpen dominated the Sox lineup. If the Sox ain't hitting this postseason, they ain't winning. Cora in fact used his best arms last night--Pivetta, Taylor, Ottavino, Whitlock, and Eovaldi--until the Sox were down 3-2 in the 9th.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Maxbialystock

[mvp 78]

If they're not going to use robot umps, then Laz and Angel should not be HP umps for playoff games.

 

https://umpscorecards.com/site-data/umpires.html

 

They should just retire the bottom 5 umps every year.

[Maxbialystock]

The game was over when Altuve tied the game in the 8th? Really? Did you just stop watching the game at that point?

Woke up to see some interesting takes this morning.

 

It was just how I felt at the time because the Astros bullpen dominated the Sox lineup so thoroughly and because Cora had already used Pivetta, Taylor, Ottavino, and Whitlock. Eovaldi was supposed to close with a 2-1 lead. With the game tied, I just thought the Astros had the upper hand, which was exacerbated when Eovaldi threw four straight fastballs to Correa, who led off the 9th with a double off the RF wall.

 

As I keep reminding folks, the Sox have not won a single postseason game when scoring fewer than 6 runs, and last night they scored 2.