Rays at Red Sox 1:10 PM

[moonslav59]

I gotta say this, because it lines up with what I've been saying about all of the Cora bashing over lose-lose choices.

 

Yesterday, Cora used our best pitchers and all 11 runs scored on them.

 

NOT Davis & Gonsalves. Is Cora a genius for bringing them in and keeping us in the game?

 

Why aren't people bashing him for bringing in Richards (1 run), Taylor (1 run), Ottavino (1 run) and Whitlock (3 runs) after Sale's start (5 runs)?

 

Here's a game we lost while Cora did everything he could to win it and used all our best guys, many who now can't be used, tonight.

 

Can we cut the guy some slack?

 

Yes, he makes mistakes, and the team seams to be lacking focus due to several obvious reasons that transcend baseball, but even when he seems to do everything everyone wants him to do, we still find a way to lose.

[moonslav59]

According to defensive metrics like UZR/150 and DRS, Dalbec is the worst fulltime BOS 1B in the past 25 years. Worse than Napoli, Millar and Hanley.

 

Mitch Moreland is considered a good 1B. AGon was a very good 1B. Youk was a very good 1B.

 

The 2018 team was not a great defensive team, but they had a few positions where they were plus or even plus, plus.

 

There's a difference between average or even a little below average and what we are seeing, now.

 

This is unchartered territory, to me. It's been horrific.

 

It's gut-twisting, horrible defense.

[redsoxrules]

I gotta say this, because it lines up with what I've been saying about all of the Cora bashing over lose-lose choices.

 

Yesterday, Cora used our best pitchers and all 11 runs scored on them.

 

NOT Davis & Gonsalves. Is Cora a genius for bringing them in and keeping us in the game?

 

Why aren't people bashing him for bringing in Richards (1 run), Taylor (1 run), Ottavino (1 run) and Whitlock (3 runs) after Sale's start (5 runs)?

 

Here's a game we lost while Cora did everything he could to win it and used all our best guys, many who now can't be used, tonight.

 

Can we cut the guy some slack?

 

Yes, he makes mistakes, and the team seams to be lacking focus due to several obvious reasons that transcend baseball, but even when he seems to do everything everyone wants him to do, we still find a way to lose.

 

A proper defense would have saved 6 runs easily. Cora is definitely not to blame for yesterday. Even on the game tying inside the park HR the defense f***ed up. Otherwise we win that again. Whitlock shut the door on the next 3 batters

[mvp 78]

The 2018 team was not a great defensive team, but they had a few positions where they were plus or even plus, plus.

 

There's a difference between average or even a little below average and what we are seeing, now.

 

This is unchartered territory, to me. It's been horrific.

 

It's gut-twisting, horrible defense.

 

C - Leon/Vaz - very solid defense

1B - Mitch - again solid

2B - Nunez/Holt/Kinsler - average at best

SS - Xander - little range but is reliable

3B - Devers - good range, but terrible arm

RF - Betts - elite defense

CF - JBJ - elite defense

LF - Beni - above average defense for LF

 

Aside from 2B and 3B, this was a good defensive unit.

[moonslav59]

A proper defense would have saved 6 runs easily. Cora is definitely not to blame for yesterday. Even on the game tying inside the park HR the defense f***ed up. Otherwise we win that again. Whitlock shut the door on the next 3 batters

 

Agreed, and the D sure sucked for the scrub pitchers that came in during games past, but Cora was blamed for those losses.

[dgalehouse]

I gotta say this, because it lines up with what I've been saying about all of the Cora bashing over lose-lose choices.

 

Yesterday, Cora used our best pitchers and all 11 runs scored on them.

 

NOT Davis & Gonsalves. Is Cora a genius for bringing them in and keeping us in the game?

 

Why aren't people bashing him for bringing in Richards (1 run), Taylor (1 run), Ottavino (1 run) and Whitlock (3 runs) after Sale's start (5 runs)?

 

Here's a game we lost while Cora did everything he could to win it and used all our best guys, many who now can't be used, tonight.

 

Can we cut the guy some slack?

 

Yes, he makes mistakes, and the team seams to be lacking focus due to several obvious reasons that transcend baseball, but even when he seems to do everything everyone wants him to do, we still find a way to lose.

 

Folks generally are willing to cut some slack to those they like. And have very little patience with those that they don't much care for. That's how it works in life.

[TylerD]

Folks generally are willing to cut some slack to those they like. And have very little patience with those that they don't much care for. That's how it works in life.

 

It's true

 

Van Damme releases a bad movie, people are all over him

 

Keanu Reeves releases a bad movie and he gets a pass. It's ******** I say!

[mvp 78]

Van Damme good movies:

Bloodsport

Kickboxer

Double Impact

Universal Soldier

Expendables

Street Fighter

Timecop

Kung Fu Panda 2

Minions: Rise of Gru

 

Reaves:

John Wick

The Matrix

Speed

Point Break

Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure

Toy Story 4

The Replacements

Spongebob the Movie

Parenthood

Dangerous Liasons

Babes in Toyland

 

It's closer than people think. Reaves gets the nod IMO but only because of Parenthood.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

C - Leon/Vaz - very solid defense

1B - Mitch - again solid

2B - Nunez/Holt/Kinsler - average at best

SS - Xander - little range but is reliable

3B - Devers - good range, but terrible arm

RF - Betts - elite defense

CF - JBJ - elite defense

LF - Beni - above average defense for LF

 

Aside from 2B and 3B, this was a good defensive unit.

 

Don't forget Nunez at third and Pearce at first conspiring on the first play that saved the postseason!

[TylerD]

Van Damme good movies:

Bloodsport

Kickboxer

Double Impact

Universal Soldier

Expendables

Street Fighter

Timecop

Kung Fu Panda 2

Minions: Rise of Gru

 

Reaves:

John Wick

The Matrix

Speed

Point Break

Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure

Toy Story 4

The Replacements

Spongebob the Movie

Parenthood

Dangerous Liasons

Babes in Toyland

 

It's closer than people think. Reaves gets the nod IMO but only because of Parenthood.

 

I agree with all that actually!

 

I also liked Sudden Death with JCVD.

 

Point Break with Keanu was ridiculous good!!

[mvp 78]

My sister watched that Babes in Toyland movie so much when we were growing up.

 

"CINCI-WHATSKI?"

[mvp 78]

Don't forget Nunez at third and Pearce at first conspiring on the first play that saved the postseason!

 

It just shows me that by upgrading a few positions (RF, 1B, C) this team would be much better defensively. I think Kiké is good enough in CF. If they are keeping Xander around at SS, they also need to pair him up with a strong 2B, otherwise they need to move him to 2B and get a defensive whiz at SS.

[moonslav59]

Folks generally are willing to cut some slack to those they like. And have very little patience with those that they don't much care for. That's how it works in life.

 

I get that, but they take it our on Cora (and Bloom), while some seemingly like and care about those two.

[Bellhorn04]

I get that, but they take it our on Cora (and Bloom), while some seemingly like and care about those two.

 

Nothing ever really changes. Francona and Epstein certainly had their share of detractors too.

 

Armchair wizards gonna armchair...

[mvp 78]

Nothing ever really changes. Francona and Epstein certainly had their share of detractors too.

 

Armchair wizards gonna armchair...

 

FranCOMA. Coffee boy (or was that Ben).

 

The only guy deserving of his detractors was Farrell.

 

Unfortunately, all the guys who hated Francona were going gaga over Bobby V. They didn't eat enough s*** for that.

[TylerD]

My sister watched that Babes in Toyland movie so much when we were growing up.

 

"CINCI-WHATSKI?"

 

Hahaha ya it wasn’t bad. It’s on Disney right now. We watched it not too long ago.

[Maxbialystock]

No. Look where the shadows are in CF when he misses the ball. You can't blame the sun on that one. He just tried to make a spectacular play, but failed.

 

Are we talking about the same play? The one I'm looking at shows Verdugo going back and to his right (when he is facing away from the plate), not going fast, and clearly having a problem seeing the ball.

[Maxbialystock]

I gotta say this, because it lines up with what I've been saying about all of the Cora bashing over lose-lose choices.

 

Yesterday, Cora used our best pitchers and all 11 runs scored on them.

 

NOT Davis & Gonsalves. Is Cora a genius for bringing them in and keeping us in the game?

 

Why aren't people bashing him for bringing in Richards (1 run), Taylor (1 run), Ottavino (1 run) and Whitlock (3 runs) after Sale's start (5 runs)?

 

Here's a game we lost while Cora did everything he could to win it and used all our best guys, many who now can't be used, tonight.

 

Can we cut the guy some slack?

 

Yes, he makes mistakes, and the team seams to be lacking focus due to several obvious reasons that transcend baseball, but even when he seems to do everything everyone wants him to do, we still find a way to lose.

 

I cut Cora zero slack because he almost always makes either the right decision or the best one available to him. You are right about the pitching yesterday and could even beat up the top of the order for failing to deliver in the bottom of the 10th. They absolutely, positively could not handle that slider McHugh kept throwing over and over and over and over again.

 

On your overall inclination to defend Cora this year, you could not be more right. I myself have whined about him and later had to admit he made the best moves under the circumstances.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Maxbialystock

[Maxbialystock]

Moreland's DWAR stunk in 2018. Agree on Youk and AGon, but between them they played 1b for a tad less than 4 seasons of games. They are the exceptions that prove the rule that the Sox recruit bats first, gloves a distant 2d.

 

Thus I love that stat on Dalbec, which I'm sure is valid. Can you guess which Sox first baseman has played the most games this year? Hint: he's 5th on the Sox in rbi's, 5th in dingers, and has an OPS of .762.

[Maxbialystock]

That 2018 Red Sox team was a good if not excellent defensive team. The staff was loaded with fly ball pitchers, and that outfield -- strictly on D -- was the best I've ever seen... and I lived through the 1970s and loved Rice-Lynn-Evans. When Yaz played left, the unit was the best in the league with the gloves, but JBJ > Lynn, Betts > Evans, and 2016-2018 Benintendi was a better fielder than Rice (bb-ref has Beni as a positive DWAR in '18). Moreland, Kinsler and Leon were all above-average with the leather when they were in there.

 

The best outfield you've ever seen had DWAR's of -.6 (Beni), +.4 (JBJ), and +1.8 (Mookie) in 2018. According to DWAR's for all MLB centerfielders in 2018, JBJ was 18th best, Beni was 45th best MLB left fielder, and Mookie was the best defensive right fielder in MLB.

[moonslav59]

I cut Cora zero slack because he almost always makes either the right decision or the best one available to him. You are right about the pitching yesterday and could even beat up the top of the order for failing to deliver in the bottom of the 10th. They absolutely, positively could not handle that slider McHugh kept throwing over and over and over and over again.

 

On your overall inclination to defend Cora this year, you could not be more right. I myself have whined about him and later had to admit he made the best moves under the circumstances.

 

I do think Cora is a great manager, but I also feel like having to defend him so often gets tiring and makes it look like I think he can do no wrong.

 

He makes mistakes and I disagree often. I don’t always view my disagreeing as being critical, so I am see how I look hypocritical to some, and why is it okay for me to be critical but not others. I thinks a heat of the moment thing for some, who just need to lash out at something or someone. The manager is always the easy target. I guess what bothers me is the apparent talking out of both sides of the mouth, and the hindsight what ifs.

 

When I hear things like “he’s handing this game away,” my skin crawls.

[moonslav59]

The best outfield you've ever seen had DWAR's of -.6 (Beni), +.4 (JBJ), and +1.8 (Mookie) in 2018. According to DWAR's for all MLB centerfielders in 2018, JBJ was 18th best, Beni was 45th best MLB left fielder, and Mookie was the best defensive right fielder in MLB.

 

Max, did we ever look even close to this bad on D at any point in2018?

[Maxbialystock]

Max, did we ever look even close to this bad on D at any point in2018?

 

Absolutely not. This defense is significantly worse than 2018's. My argument is not that this defense is OK or adequate, but that hitting and pitching (even when backed up by a weak defense) are the drivers and that overall the Sox have tended to prefer hitting and pitching a whole lot more than defense.

 

These Sox could well make it to the playoffs despite the defense, despite the current unsteadiness of the bullpen, despite the impact of covid, and despite the fact that Bloom, no doubt with the approval of JH, did not acquire players for this season which were expected to be competitive.

 

It's 7 freaking September, and, despite tremendous effort, the Sox defense has been unable to knock this team out of the playoffs.

 

Indeed, despite what seemed like a thousand unearned runs yesterday--to say nothing of other weak defensive plays that did not count as errors-- the Sox had no less than two very good chances to win yesterday's game in the 9th and 10th innings. Oh, and the pitching stunk too.

[Bellhorn04]

Absolutely not. This defense is significantly worse than 2018's. My argument is not that this defense is OK or adequate, but that hitting and pitching (even when backed up by a weak defense) are the drivers and that overall the Sox have tended to prefer hitting and pitching a whole lot more than defense.

 

These Sox could well make it to the playoffs despite the defense, despite the current unsteadiness of the bullpen, despite the impact of covid, and despite the fact that Bloom, no doubt with the approval of JH, did not acquire players for this season which were expected to be competitive.

 

It's 7 freaking September, and, despite tremendous effort, the Sox defense has been unable to knock this team out of the playoffs.

 

Indeed, despite what seemed like a thousand unearned runs yesterday--to say nothing of other weak defensive plays that did not count as errors-- the Sox had no less than two very good chances to win yesterday's game in the 9th and 10th innings. Oh, and the pitching stunk too.

 

We're still in the hunt because we're a slightly better than average team, and that's enough now to give you a shot at a wild card game.

[Maxbialystock]

We're still in the hunt because we're a slightly better than average team, and that's enough now to give you a shot at a wild card game.

 

Yep.

[vegasbob]

Yep.

 

22 to go, last 10 =5W's-5L's . Next 22 will be 11-11. It is what they are especially with the Covid IL's and a worn down, inconsistent pen.