A Realistic View at 2022: Part I

[mvp 78]

You don't think they'd start a .650 catcher, if they think he would help more than a .498 one that is working well with young pitchers.

 

Working well with the young pitchers is not the same as trying to win ballgames.

[mvp 78]

I do think that his reported biggest weakness is potentially being phased out of the game was certainly icing on the cake…

 

I agree that it was part of the decision.

[moonslav59]

Working well with the young pitchers is not the same as trying to win ballgames.

 

Getting pitchers- young and old- to realize their maximum potential is something losing and winning teams covet.

 

Why did Leon stay on the Sox for 5 seasons? Why did he play more than most back-ups, despite hitting worse than just about all back-up catchers?

 

Do you really think catchers make very little difference in hos a pitcher performs, especially those pitchers who rarely shake of pitch calls?

[mvp 78]

Getting pitchers- young and old- to realize their maximum potential is something losing and winning teams covet.

 

Why did Leon stay on the Sox for 5 seasons? Why did he play more than most back-ups, despite hitting worse than just about all back-up catchers?

 

Do you really think catchers make very little difference in hos a pitcher performs, especially those pitchers who rarely shake of pitch calls?

 

There is value to Leon. There just isn't 1.50 saved ERA value.

 

He was a positive fWAR guy from 16-18. He had value then. Now, he has much less value because his bat is crap and his defense has taken a step back.

[Bellhorn04]

In 2019 during Restgate, many of us were clamoring for them to bring Sandy back to save the pitching. They brought him back, but the pitching continued to suck.

[moonslav59]

There is value to Leon. There just isn't 1.50 saved ERA value.

 

He was a positive fWAR guy from 16-18. He had value then. Now, he has much less value because his bat is crap and his defense has taken a step back.

 

I'm not claiming he made a 1.50 difference, but you don't answer my questions. I'll cut it down to one.

 

Does a catcher's value go beyond just what is captured by b or f WAR?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

 

Am I the only one that thinks the massive amount of pitchers do better or much better with him might have something to do with things not captured by WAR?

 

 

I'm fine with people not believing catchers make big differences, and personally, I don't attribute all of the variance to just Leon, but I think the overwhelming amount of sample size, big, medium and small show pitchers do better or worse with certain catchers means something substantial.

 

 

You realize that implying qualitative data matters in baseball, too, could cause some posters' heads to explode?

 

Steve Carlton and Tim McCarver say hi. Wait, McCarver wants to say more...

[moonslav59]

You realize that implying qualitative data matters in baseball, too, could cause some posters' heads to explode?

 

Steve Carlton and Tim McCarver say hi. Wait, McCarver wants to say more...

 

LOL.

 

I've barely touched on anecdotal evidence.

[Bellhorn04]

LOL.

 

I've barely touched on anecdotal evidence.

 

Anecdotal evidence is verboten.

[moonslav59]

Anecdotal evidence is verboten.

 

But, but, but... what if Schilling says it's all about who was catching him in those playoff series?

 

(LOL)

[User Name]

I'm not claiming he made a 1.50 difference, but you don't answer my questions. I'll cut it down to one.

 

Does a catcher's value go beyond just what is captured by b or f WAR?

 

Every player's value (or lack thereof) goes beyond what can be captured by stats.

[mvp 78]

I'm not claiming he made a 1.50 difference, but you don't answer my questions. I'll cut it down to one.

 

Does a catcher's value go beyond just what is captured by b or f WAR?

 

Sure, but it doesn't go all that much further than it. There is some excess value, but it's rather immaterial.

[moonslav59]

Every player's value (or lack thereof) goes beyond what can be captured by stats.

 

Agreed, and since all stats are flawed, even the value they assign are not fully representative of the very things they are trying to capture.

[mvp 78]

But, but, but... what if Schilling says it's all about who was catching him in those playoff series?

 

(LOL)

 

The red sharpie was laced with amphetamines.

[mvp 78]

Agreed, and since all stats are flawed, even the value they assign are not fully representative of the very things they are trying to capture.

 

Then it just goes by how MOON personally feels about a player.

[moonslav59]

Then it just goes by how MOON personally feels about a player.

 

LOL.

 

I will say that Leon was far from my favorite player, as was Wake, someone I defended way more than I wanted to or should have had to do.

 

I actually like Vaz.

 

One guy I never liked: Mike Greenwell.

 

[mvp 78]

LOL.

 

I will say that Leon was far from my favorite player, as was Wake, someone I defended way more than I wanted to or should have had to do.

 

I actually like Vaz.

 

One guy I never liked: Mike Greenwell.

 

 

I was young enough to enjoy the Gator experience. The stock car racing was cool, I guess. My dad always bagged on him for swinging on the first pitch and running into the monster. He was the only good positional player that came close to bridging the Rice/Boggs/Clemens/Evans years to the Pedro/Papi/Manny ones.

[mvp 78]

Greenwell's career 120 WRC+ is better than Xander and ties Raffy.

 

He just played on some s***** teams and deserved better talent around him.

[moonslav59]

I was young enough to enjoy the Gator experience. The stock car racing was cool, I guess. My dad always bagged on him for swinging on the first pitch and running into the monster. He was the only good positional player that came close to bridging the Rice/Boggs/Clemens/Evans years to the Pedro/Papi/Manny ones.

 

My ex-brother in law called his defense, "I'll pick the ball up when it stops rolling."

 

What annoyed the hell out of my about his crashing into the wall was that he never learned. He'd never run fast to the wall, stop and then jump vertical. He would slowly run back towards the wall, then at the last minute dive into the wall, so the ball would hit is glove at the exact moment his body crashed into the wall- ball dropped.

[moonslav59]

Greenwell's career 120 WRC+ is better than Xander and ties Raffy.

 

 

But he failed the "Moon likes him" test.

[notin]

Greenwell's career 120 WRC+ is better than Xander and ties Raffy.

 

He just played on some s***** teams and deserved better talent around him.

 

Greenwell also could have helped himself by maybe taking a pitch or two once in a while…

[moonslav59]

Greenwell also could have helped himself by maybe taking a pitch or two once in a while…

 

The guy could hit.

 

I won't take that away from him.

[moonslav59]

I guess another thing that bugged me about MG was that he looked so promising after 1987-88. He was just 24, and had a 155 OPS+ in those two years combined.(41 HRs in 1000 ABs)

 

He finished his Sox & MLB career at age 32 with a 111 OPS+ from ages 25-32. He never hit more than 15 HRs in a season after 1988.

 

Dwight Evans he was not.

[mvp 78]

My ex-brother in law called his defense, "I'll pick the ball up when it stops rolling."

 

What annoyed the hell out of my about his crashing into the wall was that he never learned. He'd never run fast to the wall, stop and then jump vertical. He would slowly run back towards the wall, then at the last minute dive into the wall, so the ball would hit is glove at the exact moment his body crashed into the wall- ball dropped.

 

 

Don't bag on Greenwell too much. Watch LF on this triple when Greenie hit for the cycle.

[notin]

 

Don't bag on Greenwell too much. Watch LF on this triple when Greenie hit for the cycle.

 

Without clicking, was that against the Yankees?

[mvp 78]

The guy could hit.

 

I won't take that away from him.

 

 

He was the proto dirt dog.

[mvp 78]

Without clicking, was that against the Yankees?

 

O's.

[moonslav59]

 

Don't bag on Greenwell too much. Watch LF on this triple when Greenie hit for the cycle.

 

I take everything back: he's the greatest!

[mvp 78]

The guy could hit.

 

I won't take that away from him.

 

He put the ball in play.

 

37% swung at the first pitch

88% contact

65 career strike outs looking (that's just endearing)

 

Boggs:

8% first pitch

93% contact

221 career strike outs looking

 

Bogaerts:

17% first pitch

79% contact

143 strike outs looking

[mvp 78]

I take everything back: he's the greatest!

 

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/costacos-baseball-poster-mike-417762283

 

He did have one of the greatest posters though.