trade deadline

[mvp 78]

If I gave you these stat lines on trade deadline day and said these three guys would have these numbers on September 1st, we'd all have been dancing in the streets.

 

1.170 OPS Dalbec (8 HRs and 24 RBI in 26 games)

 

1.092 OPS Schwarber (.492 OBP)

 

These aren't just any 3 players. These were widely viewed as key players needing to contribute more than they had before the deadline.

 

Little did we know, the whole rest of the team would implode, all at once.

 

3-0 2.35 ERA Chris Sale (15.1 IP/ 21 K)

 

 

 

No, the offense wasn't the problem, it was the pitching. That's where they needed the upgrades. We knew Sale would come back, but that doesn't prevent them from bringing in capable relievers.

[mvp 78]

Bobby Dalbec indeed was a two-way player at the University of Arizona where the Seattle native reported that his favorite team was the Seattle Mariners:

 

https://arizonawildcats.com/sports/baseball/roster/bobby-dalbec/2353

 

Is that why he doesn't like winning?

[mvp 78]

Dalbec and Downs for Flexen and DeLoach.

[moonslav59]

No, the offense wasn't the problem, it was the pitching. That's where they needed the upgrades. We knew Sale would come back, but that doesn't prevent them from bringing in capable relievers.

 

We didn't know Sale would be 3-0.

 

Yes, we needed pitching. Everyone agrees.

 

What we don't agree on, is how much Bloom should have given up to get it.

 

We can also agree on how wrong he looks getting Robles and Davis, although Davis has looked better than Kimbrel since the deadline.

 

Bloom certainly chose to not give up more than he wanted of the future. He might have felt we'd make the playoffs without a splashy move to get a pitcher or two, but to me, it was about him setting a price and not going over it.

 

If we miss the playoffs- fine go after Bloom all you want. I'll still think his outlook was the right one- it just did not work for 2021, too well. Without knowing what pieces he'd have to have given up, I won't bash him. I also won't use 20-20 hindsight and find some low return pitcher who did great after the trade to dangle over Blooms head while yelling that he's an idiot.

 

We could have traded for KImbrel, and you'd have been happy, yet we'd still be sucking. We could have made a brilliant trade for some unknown RP'er who ended up doing great, yes, but I'm not holding that over Bloom.

 

BTW, the offense has been part of the problem.

 

 

 

[Bellhorn04]

We didn't know Sale would be 3-0.

 

Not sure what that has to do with anything. I'm happy with the way he's looked, but being 3-0 is a product of facing Baltimore, Texas and Minny, and getting 34 runs worth of support.

[moonslav59]

Not sure what that has to do with anything. I'm happy with the way he's looked, but being 3-0 is a product of facing Baltimore, Texas and Minny, and getting 34 runs worth of support.

 

It was not a known, Sale would comeback like he has- weak opponents and all.

 

Had we known for sure about the 3 things I listed, and if I gave the numbers for Kimbrel and Rizzo- the two most talked about trade deadline targets, would posters have been happy or sad we did not make those two trades?

 

Sure, in hindsight, I can find 2-3 other trades that would have made us better, but there are at least two factors involved:

 

1. What would we have given up (and did we even have the right pieces to give up for some of the bigger names)?

 

2. Would adding 2-3 decent players have really made a difference, beyond making a few fans and posters happy?

 

One poster wanted us to trade for CJ Cron and Jon Gray.

 

Cron since deadline: 1.240 (11 HR and 34 RBI in 27 games)

 

Gray 1-5 5.72

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by moonslav59

[Bellhorn04]

It was not a known, Sale would comeback like he has- weak opponents and all.

 

Had we known for sure about the 3 things I listed, and if I gave the numbers for Kimbrel and Rizzo- the two most talked about trade deadline targets, would posters have been happy or sad we did not make those two trades?

 

Sure, in hindsight, I can find 2-3 other trades that would have made us better, but there are at least two factors involved:

 

1. What would we have given up (and did we even have the right pieces to give up for some of the bigger names)?

 

2. Would adding 2-3 decent players have really made a difference, beyond making a few fans and posters happy?

 

 

In 20/20 hindsight, it doesn't matter about Robles and Davis, and hanging onto the money and the prospects was better.

[Bellhorn04]

In fact, with the COVID disaster, the best thing now might be to put Sale on the phantom DL, go full clown show and move up a few spots in next year's draft...

[mvp 78]

If we miss the playoffs- fine go after Bloom all you want. I'll still think his outlook was the right one- it just did not work for 2021, too well.

 

The problem is that when posters stan so hard for a GM, you can't have a reasonable conversation about it. It's just "well, Bloom made the right call at the time. How would he know the team would stink? There's nothing he could have done." It's the trust Bloom, trust Cora mantra.

 

This team was in first place at the deadline. One month later, they are in a tail spin and potentially not even in position to get to the WC. (I'm sure if they fail to get there, some posters will just say "oh it was due to COVID and nobody could have seen that" rather than even provide a modicum of blame for ownership/FO/coaching.) They stood pat. It didn't work.

 

The pieces are not fitting right now. Is that Bloom's fault? Is that Cora's fault for poor coaching? Could Cora have been a better leader and gotten that vax % up over 85? At some point, when the venture you are running fails, it's on the people at the top.

[harmony]

Dalbec and Downs for Flexen and DeLoach.

Just what the Seattle Mariners need: a 23-year-old middle infielder batting .179 (109 strikouts!) in 81 AAA games playing his home games in a hitter's paradise.

 

Sarcasm alert.

[mvp 78]

In fact, with the COVID disaster, the best thing now might be to put Sale on the phantom DL, go full clown show and move up a few spots in next year's draft...

 

I wouldn't say clown show. I think bringing Seabold up would be a good idea. I think bringing Ort up would be a good idea. I think bringing up Feltman would be a good idea. Add in some young guys and at least the fans won't entirely tune out. Give Duran the full time CF role from here on out. Verdugo looks like ass out there anyway.

[mvp 78]

Just what the Seattle Mariners need: a 23-year-old middle infielder batting .179 (109 strikouts!) in 81 AAA games playing his home games in a hitter's paradise.

 

Sarcasm alert.

 

I just proposed it to SEA and they accepted. Sorry.

[dgalehouse]

It was not a known, Sale would comeback like he has- weak opponents and all.

 

Had we known for sure about the 3 things I listed, and if I gave the numbers for Kimbrel and Rizzo- the two most talked about trade deadline targets, would posters have been happy or sad we did not make those two trades?

 

Sure, in hindsight, I can find 2-3 other trades that would have made us better, but there are at least two factors involved:

 

1. What would we have given up (and did we even have the right pieces to give up for some of the bigger names)?

 

2. Would adding 2-3 decent players have really made a difference, beyond making a few fans and posters happy?

 

One poster wanted us to trade for CJ Cron and Jon Gray.

 

Cron since deadline: 1.240 (11 HR and 34 RBI in 27 games)

 

Gray 1-5 5.72

 

 

 

 

So many of your posts are geared towards defending and vindicating Bloom . Almost obsessively so.

[mvp 78]

So many of your posts are geared towards defending and vindicating Bloom . Almost obsessively so.

 

I would say adding 2 reliable relievers (not a closer like Kimbrel) would have made a difference. 3 wins? 4 wins?

[Hugh2]

In fact, with the COVID disaster, the best thing now might be to put Sale on the phantom DL, go full clown show and move up a few spots in next year's draft...

 

The difference between picking 23rd and 15th in MLB draft is marginal at best. This is not like tanking in the NBA.

 

As of today, the Sox are still a playoff team and a pretty damn good team if they are firing on all cylinders (which they're currently not). No way you can give up on this season, and Sale needs work after missing so much time.

[dgalehouse]

Just what the Seattle Mariners need: a 23-year-old middle infielder batting .179 (109 strikouts!) in 81 AAA games playing his home games in a hitter's paradise.

 

Sarcasm alert.

Have to wonder if Downs would get the same amount of attention if his first name was Sam.

[mvp 78]

The difference between picking 23rd and 15th in MLB draft is marginal at best. This is not like tanking in the NBA.

 

As of today, the Sox are still a playoff team and a pretty damn good team if they are firing on all cylinders (which they're currently not). No way you can give up on this season, and Sale needs work after missing so much time.

 

Yes, not much benefit in tanking now. Would create more ill will than anything else.

[mvp 78]

Have to wonder if Downs would get the same amount of attention if his first name was Sam.

 

I've heard that one before.

[mvp 78]

Downs got attention because he was the high profile prospect brought back in the Mookie trade. There's no other reason for it.

[moonslav59]

In 20/20 hindsight, it doesn't matter about Robles and Davis, and hanging onto the money and the prospects was better.

 

I meant hindsight by finding some RP'ers that were traded for little to moderate return and are doing well since the trade. That is what MVP is blaming Bloom on not doing.

[dgalehouse]

Downs got attention because he was the high profile prospect brought back in the Mookie trade. There's no other reason for it.

 

Well , how many .179 hitting minor leaguers get this much ink?

[moonslav59]

The problem is that when posters stan so hard for a GM, you can't have a reasonable conversation about it. It's just "well, Bloom made the right call at the time. How would he know the team would stink? There's nothing he could have done." It's the trust Bloom, trust Cora mantra.

 

This team was in first place at the deadline. One month later, they are in a tail spin and potentially not even in position to get to the WC. (I'm sure if they fail to get there, some posters will just say "oh it was due to COVID and nobody could have seen that" rather than even provide a modicum of blame for ownership/FO/coaching.) They stood pat. It didn't work.

 

The pieces are not fitting right now. Is that Bloom's fault? Is that Cora's fault for poor coaching? Could Cora have been a better leader and gotten that vax % up over 85? At some point, when the venture you are running fails, it's on the people at the top.

 

I'm not saying Bloom made the right call.I actually came out and said, until we know what was asked in return, how can we blame him (or praise him implied)?

 

Why don't you come out and say what specifically Bloom should have done, and name names. Go ahead and even use hindsight to selectively choose the players who have done well after the trade.

 

Even then, you can't know if it would have made a significant difference.

 

Then, is making the WC game vs losing in the next round significant and worth giving some of the future away?

 

Honestly, I don't know.

 

Yes, I defend Bloom more than I criticize him. I like his overall philosophy and the direction the team is going. Does that outweigh a few mistakes here and there? Hell, yes, IMO!

 

It seems to me, the it's the Bloom bashers who can't have a reasonable conversation. If we can't agree with you on winning now is always the most important thing, we're not being "reasonable."

 

Sure, I'll agree it's Bloom's fault were not as good as we could have been this year, but I also believe we have been better than we were expected to be and have clearly improved our future outlook, and to me that matters more. I'm not sure why that position is unreasonable.

 

Look, I made a list of all the mistakes Bloom has made. I'm one of his biggest defenders, and I don't see anyone saying he does no wrong.

 

I know you have praised Bloom for many many things and like his overall approach (I think, right?)

 

In all honesty, I do think Bloom could have and should have made a slightly bigger play at the deadline for pitching. One that would not have hurt any more than losing Aldo Ramirez did to help an offense that was not our major need area. I get that. Maybe I should have said it just like that a few times. However, I don't know what pitchers teams were offering and what they wanted, and then there is the crapshoot aspect of trading for RP'ers (like Gage or Kimbrel). Sometimes getting some RP'erslike Robles and Davis actually works out. I trusted Bloom knew how to spot gems in the rough. I still think he's pretty good at it, but he missed on these two- and missed badly.

 

Not to lessen what Bloom did wrong, but even getting 2 RP'ers that went on to do great might not have made much of a difference. That's not sugar coating what has happened to this team. This sucks. Even the people who though Bloom failed miserably at the deadline never foresaw this. Hell, we're still in the lead for the WC slot with an easy ending to our schedule. This COVID s*** has now turned those hopes into rolling the dice.

 

I don't mean to get testy with you, MVP. I respect the hell out of you as a poster, and you know a lot more than I do about a lot of things with this team and baseball, in general. I do see very reasonable conversations, except on game threads.

[moonslav59]

Well , how many .179 hitting minor leaguers get this much ink?

 

He was ranked pretty highly, before the trade.

 

Some think his name helped, but I'm not so sure that moved the needle all that much.

[dgalehouse]

He was ranked pretty highly, before the trade.

 

Some think his name helped, but I'm not so sure that moved the needle all that much.

 

I don't think his name moved the needle at all as far as scouts and front office types are concerned. I was talking about the average jabroni fan.

[moonslav59]

I don't think his name moved the needle at all as far as scouts and front office types are concerned. I was talking about the average jabroni fan.

 

Sure, jabroni fans noticed him because of his name, but without the high rankings and ratings, he would not have been talked about all that much.

 

There are a lot of colorful names of minor leaguers never discussed.

[mvp 78]

Sure, jabroni fans noticed him because of his name, but without the high rankings and ratings, he would not have been talked about all that much.

 

There are a lot of colorful names of minor leaguers never discussed.

 

Jedixson Paez

Jhostnxon Garcia

[Elktonnick]

The problem is that when posters stan so hard for a GM, you can't have a reasonable conversation about it. It's just "well, Bloom made the right call at the time. How would he know the team would stink? There's nothing he could have done." It's the trust Bloom, trust Cora mantra.

 

This team was in first place at the deadline. One month later, they are in a tail spin and potentially not even in position to get to the WC. (I'm sure if they fail to get there, some posters will just say "oh it was due to COVID and nobody could have seen that" rather than even provide a modicum of blame for ownership/FO/coaching.) They stood pat. It didn't work.

 

The pieces are not fitting right now. Is that Bloom's fault? Is that Cora's fault for poor coaching? Could Cora have been a better leader and gotten that vax % up over 85? At some point, when the venture you are running fails, it's on the people at the top.

You have basically articulated my point of view as well. No matter how you look at it the team has become totally disfunctional. Everyone associated with ball club both on and off the field has some culpability for the current sorry state of affairs. Once the season ends, I just wonder whether Henry is ready to sit everyone down who is connected with baseball ops for a realistic reassessment on how this situation came to be and the way forward.

[a700hitter]

Downs upside is not Jeter-esque, probably not even Lugo-esque.

[moonslav59]

You have basically articulated my point of view as well. No matter how you look at it the team has become totally disfunctional. Everyone associated with ball club both on and off the field has some culpability for the current sorry state of affairs. Once the season ends, I just wonder whether Henry is ready to sit everyone down who is connected with baseball ops for a realistic reassessment on how this situation came to be and the way forward.

 

I don't think Henry is shocked at this year's team missing out on the playoffs or just barely squeaking in.

 

You think greatness was expected this quickly?

 

Just because the team teased everybody over 100 games, doesn't change the fact that Henry and Bloom knew this was not the year to go all in. The team is proving it, now.

[moonslav59]

Downs upside is not Jeter-esque, probably not even Lugo-esque.

 

Well worded.